First class obsolete?

[Clip]

I also would certainly expect a more comfortable bigger seat with a table and a good view. Sadly 387s dont offer this and you fear its gonna become more commonplace to not have these.

Like you sayl, some people would pay for quality.

And yet a lot of people already pay for it as it is already and on some trains ive been on in a morning they are already full so why would these TOCS actually increase the offering when they get paid for the status quo?

 

[Master29]

I also would certainly expect a more comfortable bigger seat with a table and a good view. Sadly 387s dont offer this and you fear its gonna become more commonplace to not have these.

Like you sayl, some people would pay for quality.

A huge price hike for first class on the likes of 387`s is hardly worth the while anyway. On a longer journey I would expect a few freebies, wider seats etc. though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like you sayl, some people would pay for quality.

If LM would refit the 350s[1] with 2+1 seating in 1st I'd seriously consider a 1st season when commuting. I'm not, however, paying extra for what are basically the same seats.

[1] Already provided on 319s of course.

 

[gsnedders]

Even if the removal of 1st class doesn't double the number of seats in a coach, the extra standing room would help to increase capacity

If that's the goal for suburban trains, following the example of Japan is almost certainly the right approach: longitudinal seating in 2nd to maximise standing room, 2+2 in first. Now that would increase capacity significantly, though obviously there are limits as to how long of a journey that would be reasonable for.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If LM would refit the 350s[1] with 2+1 seating in 1st I'd seriously consider a 1st season when commuting. I'm not, however, paying extra for what are basically the same seats.

Elsewhere in commuterland however there are those who will do just that, because the benefit is they are likely to be able to sit in it.

 

[yorksrob]

If that's the goal for suburban trains, following the example of Japan is almost certainly the right approach: longitudinal seating in 2nd to maximise standing room, 2+2 in first. Now that would increase capacity significantly, though obviously there are limits as to how long of a journey that would be reasonable for.

Yes, not beyond Orpington would be an absolute as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mag_seven]

Don't forget that first class fares generate a lot of additional revenue which it could be argued keeps the cost of standard class tickets lower than they might be. Those who want first class to be abolished completely should be careful what they wish for!

 

[Envy123]

The only situation where I had a problem with first class, is that one time when a GN service from Kings Cross to Welwyn was so overcrowded, that standard ticket holders could not get on but first class ticket holders could very easily.

Having to cough up extra, just to be able to use the service you're paying for, is not why I would pay for first class in an ideal world. But if this is a regular occurrence and I end up living in Potters Bar or Welwyn, I think I have to pay for a first class season ticket so such a situation doesn't happen with me again.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, not beyond Orpington would be an absolute as far as I'm concerned.

An absolute what?

 

[Deepgreen]

First class on the UK rail 'network' is an utter shambles. Each TOC has gone its own way with such a disparity of signing that it's hard to know where first class is, when it applies and so on. Even the simple standard of the yellow stripe has been abandoned by many TOCs in favour of what they seem to regard as more important - i.e that their beautiful liveries must not be despoiled by useful information!

Many TOCs have shockingly poor accommodation for first class and similarly poor labelling, etc. This, of course, not only affects first class ticket holders, who are being short changed, but standard class ticket holders, who find it hard to know where not to sit (and when).

There seems to be an attitude widely held by TOCs that first class identification and quality is an add-on, and that it doesn't really matter. Quality control has gone and what should be a simple thing to manage has fallen into disrepute for no good reason.

 

[daodao]

First class on the UK rail 'network' is an utter shambles. Each TOC has gone its own way with such a disparity of signing that it's hard to know where first class is, when it applies and so on. Even the simple standard of the yellow stripe has been abandoned by many TOCs in favour of what they seem to regard as more important - i.e that their beautiful liveries must not be despoiled by useful information!

Many TOCs have shockingly poor accommodation for first class and similarly poor labelling, etc. This, of course, not only affects first class ticket holders, who are being short changed, but standard class ticket holders, who find it hard to know where not to sit (and when).

There seems to be an attitude widely held by TOCs that first class identification and quality is an add-on, and that it doesn't really matter. Quality control has gone and what should be a simple thing to manage has fallen into disrepute for no good reason.

I haven't seen 1st class on local services for a long time, and many longer distance services don't have it, e.g. M/c-South Wales. I thought it was now confined to main line journeys, mostly to/from London (+ XC).

 

[AlterEgo]

I haven't seen 1st class on local services for a long time, and many longer distance services don't have it, e.g. M/c-South Wales. I thought it was now confined to main line journeys, mostly to/from London (+ XC).

You need to come to London then!

 

[daodao]

You need to come to London then!

I once lived in London and often travelled on SW local services; there's no 1st class on those services either, e.g. to Barnes/Chiswick/Norbiton/Cobham.

 

[Envy123]

I haven't seen 1st class on local services for a long time, and many longer distance services don't have it, e.g. M/c-South Wales. I thought it was now confined to main line journeys, mostly to/from London (+ XC).

Most of the GN trains from Kings Cross to Welwyn that I used, definitely had first class.

 

[AlterEgo]

I once lived in London and often travelled on SW local services; there's no 1st class on those services either, e.g. to Barnes/Chiswick/Norbiton/Cobham.

Not on very suburban lines no, but it's there on all the services to places like Alton, Reading, Woking, Basingstoke and so on - the wealthy commuter belt. About half of the trains you see at Waterloo have first class.

There's also First Class extensively on GTR and Southeastern.

 

[HH]

Generally Metro/Inners don't have and Outers do. This is true to most London Terminals.

 

[yorksrob]

An absolute what?

An absolute red line beyond which longitudinal seating layout trains are unsuited.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

it's hard to know where first class is, when it applies and so on. .

Thameslink are the classic case in point for this. The Luton/Sutton Loop stopping services are deemed all standard apart from the frequency 'changeovers', peak periods and special working when some of them commence from or continue to Bedford when first class applies. People may be able to work out that First class is in operation if a train is going to Bedford but it isn't so easy to work out if a stopping service has come from Bedford. Most people assume that all stopping services are standard class only. At least revenue staff finding people with standard tickets in first on these trains tend to just tell them to move rather than issue dire warnings or penalties (a la FCC)

 

[AlterEgo]

Thameslink are the classic case in point for this. The Luton/Sutton Loop stopping services are deemed all standard apart from the frequency 'changeovers', peak periods and special working when some of them commence from or continue to Bedford when first class applies. People may be able to work out that First class is in operation if a train is going to Bedford but it isn't so easy to work out if a stopping service has come from Bedford. Most people assume that all stopping services are standard class only. At least revenue staff finding people with standard tickets in first on these trains tend to just tell them to move rather than issue dire warnings or penalties (a la FCC)

It just begs the question "what is the point?".

 

[HH]

It just begs the question "what is the point?".

On Thameslink, in my opinion, there's very little point. But the Govia bid team thought otherwise. Maybe there will be a different decision next time round. In the meantime, moaning about it is going to change nothing, because only DfT can drive change of this nature mid-franchise and that's about as likely as Tony Blair becoming the Minister for Brexit.

 

[dk1]

XC and TPE don't seem to have an excess proportion of 1st to me. One carriage on a Voyager and half a carriage on a 158, and these are rarely empty (the whole train being too short is the problem here).

Do you mean 185? Apart from the 156s used on BPN services, TPE only operate these & 350s.

 

[swt class 450]

I completely 100% support getting rid of First Class. I would love to see First Class get completely abolished throughout the UK. On most trains nowadays it is 100% identical (or at least very similar) to Standard Class. I find it disgraceful that certain Govia TOCs charge First Class fares on the 375 / 377 / 387 trains when they are exactly 100% identical to Standard Class with no additional benefits. On many trains it is very easy to sit in First Class without realising it nowadays as it is so similar to Standard Class and very poorly marked.

Getting rid of First Class would free up more space for Standard Class ticket holders on busy routes. It is always annoying to be on a busy full and standing train when First Class is completely empty (which is something i see almost every day).

Even on long distance trains there is no need for First Class. These trains are already busy enough and not long enough so the whole train should really just be used for Standard Class accommodation.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

There are already many lines (both short distance and long distance) throughout the UK without First Class which works very well so i really think it is time to extend this to all other trains throughout the UK.

 

[Llanigraham]

I completely 100% support getting rid of First Class.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

Because people want to and can afford to!
It is called the free market.
Perhaps you need to understand that before you criticise.

 

[SS4]

First Class should stay but should have a minimum specification to be classed as separate from standard (complete with figures but I'm not sure exactly what they'd be off the top of my head). To be introduced alongside this trains can only have First or Second Class areas and First fares can only be charged where they meet the aforementioned provisions.

I would also like to see First to be quiet zone by default with one or two noisy coaches.

TOCs don't help themselves by having either ludicrously cheap advances (removing a good portion of the ambience) or stupidly expensive without a suitable middle ground.

 

[AlterEgo]

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

Of course you can't.

 

[trainophile]

If they scrap 1st Class on VTWC they will need to do something about the back-ache inducing seats in Standard. I know I'm always harping on about it, but they really are dreadfully uncomfortable for any journey of over 20 minutes, being far too upright for any sort of back support.

If all Standard seating was of the same quality as ATW's (except their Pacers and Sprinters!) most people would find that acceptable. But then it's often the ambience and light refreshments of 1st that make a journey into a leisure trip.

 

[sk688]

I completely 100% support getting rid of First Class. I would love to see First Class get completely abolished throughout the UK. On most trains nowadays it is 100% identical (or at least very similar) to Standard Class. I find it disgraceful that certain Govia TOCs charge First Class fares on the 375 / 377 / 387 trains when they are exactly 100% identical to Standard Class with no additional benefits. On many trains it is very easy to sit in First Class without realising it nowadays as it is so similar to Standard Class and very poorly marked.

Getting rid of First Class would free up more space for Standard Class ticket holders on busy routes. It is always annoying to be on a busy full and standing train when First Class is completely empty (which is something i see almost every day).

Even on long distance trains there is no need for First Class. These trains are already busy enough and not long enough so the whole train should really just be used for Standard Class accommodation.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

There are already many lines (both short distance and long distance) throughout the UK without First Class which works very well so i really think it is time to extend this to all other trains throughout the UK.

On Long Distance trains , they get free food and more comfortable travel ( 2+1 instead of 2+2 )

On Commuter services , it is used to allow commuters a seat in peak times . It is pretty useful then

 

[43096]

If they scrap 1st Class on VTWC they will need to do something about the back-ache inducing seats in Standard. I know I'm always harping on about it, but they really are dreadfully uncomfortable for any journey of over 20 minutes, being far too upright for any sort of back support.

I fully agree with you - having had a 4hr Voyager journey last week - but don't see that they will "need" to do something about it. Those seats have been with us for well over 10 years now and nothing has been done!

 

[Polarbear]

I completely 100% support getting rid of First Class. I would love to see First Class get completely abolished throughout the UK. On most trains nowadays it is 100% identical (or at least very similar) to Standard Class. I find it disgraceful that certain Govia TOCs charge First Class fares on the 375 / 377 / 387 trains when they are exactly 100% identical to Standard Class with no additional benefits. On many trains it is very easy to sit in First Class without realising it nowadays as it is so similar to Standard Class and very poorly marked.

Getting rid of First Class would free up more space for Standard Class ticket holders on busy routes. It is always annoying to be on a busy full and standing train when First Class is completely empty (which is something i see almost every day).

Even on long distance trains there is no need for First Class. These trains are already busy enough and not long enough so the whole train should really just be used for Standard Class accommodation.

I really cant understand why anyone would pay for First Class when they get can much cheaper fares in Standard Class.

There are already many lines (both short distance and long distance) throughout the UK without First Class which works very well so i really think it is time to extend this to all other trains throughout the UK.

I'm sorry, but with the greatest of respect, you appear to be looking at this issue through a very narrow viewpoint. To abolish first class throughout the UK rail network would be economic suicide for many TOC's.

First class has it's place. It's allows people to make a choice in the way they travel. Additional comfort, more legroom, better ambiance and in some cases, complementary food & drink are all used as incentives for customers who choose to do so.

I agree that in the south of England, many of the TOC's (SWT excepted) have gradually downgraded the first class offering to the point where paying a first class fare will only really guarantee a seat. Yes, it can be empty at off peak times, but that's got much to do with the fare structure & the lack of incentive for anyone to upgrade as there is little if anything "extra" on offer for the money.

Taking your total abolition argument a step further, would you say the same for people buying houses, or cars, or for any electrical products for example? Should they only be able to buy one product, one type of car, or one type of house just because it's the cheapest? I'm afraid that's not how market forces work.

Also, I'm struggling to think of many countries that do not offer any sort of premium accommodation on their rail services. Even former communist countries such as Russia and China offer a choice of accommodation on their trains.

 

[Darandio]

I'm sorry, but with the greatest of respect, you appear to be looking at this issue through a very narrow viewpoint.

I think it's fair to say that the narrow viewpoint stems entirely from Govia, of whom they have an absolute hatred of and post regularly about it.

They mentioned Govia very early in the quote, anything after that was nothing but an uninformed rant.