First class obsolete?

[ScotTrains]

I always try to travel 1st class. This isn't always possible due to either unavailability (no 1st conveyed) or the price is too high for me. I will then look at other trains, routes and dates. If I still can't get first class at a good price then I'll reluctantly travel standard class.

I think that on every train there will always be a percentage of people who would be willing to upgrade to first if it existed and was at the correct price. Looking at the Edinburgh to Aberdeen route first class costs around£80 unless you travel on an advanced. Scotrail have recently introduced advanced fares but they are very rare and I think are limited to 2 per train. This means Scotrail often carry mostly empty air in first class and the much better VTEC services are almost always far cheaper.
At the weekend first class on Scotrail is much better used as one can upgrade for about £6. This clearly shows Scotrail have their pricing wrong as many people are happy to pay a little extra to travel 1st.

I personally think more trains should have 1st class and charge just a little extra for it. Many rural lines on the continent do this. On scenic rural line here I'm sure many people would happily pay a little more (say 30%) to travel 1st. Looking at the airlines BA have a four class system as this helps maximise profit by appealing to the different needs/ financial constraints of their passengers. The railways should be doing the same to an extent. I think most people want to travel 1st class. The question is how much are they willing to pay for it. This should determine the extra price the companies should be charging for it.

 

[physics34]

first class isnt obsolete if its an upgrade on standard.

You get the feeling that some TOCs are making First class obsolete by doing things on the cheep.

 

[HH]

You get the feeling that some TOCs are making First class obsolete by doing things on the cheep.

They must be bird brains!

 

[physics34]

They must be bird brains!

lol.... you can tell i got up at 4 this morning!

 

[bavvo]

I see no reason to get rid of First Class, even though I can rarely afford it. It fills a role, and probably attracts custom that would otherwise not travel by rail.

However, if the standard class is crush loaded and 1st is empty, then it really just shows the TOC can't price its tickets correctly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I always try to travel 1st class. This isn't always possible due to either unavailability (no 1st conveyed) or the price is too high for me. I will then look at other trains, routes and dates. If I still can't get first class at a good price then I'll reluctantly travel standard class.

I think that on every train there will always be a percentage of people who would be willing to upgrade to first if it existed and was at the correct price. Looking at the Edinburgh to Aberdeen route first class costs around£80 unless you travel on an advanced. Scotrail have recently introduced advanced fares but they are very rare and I think are limited to 2 per train. This means Scotrail often carry mostly empty air in first class and the much better VTEC services are almost always far cheaper.
At the weekend first class on Scotrail is much better used as one can upgrade for about £6. This clearly shows Scotrail have their pricing wrong as many people are happy to pay a little extra to travel 1st.

I personally think more trains should have 1st class and charge just a little extra for it. Many rural lines on the continent do this. On scenic rural line here I'm sure many people would happily pay a little more (say 30%) to travel 1st. Looking at the airlines BA have a four class system as this helps maximise profit by appealing to the different needs/ financial constraints of their passengers. The railways should be doing the same to an extent. I think most people want to travel 1st class. The question is how much are they willing to pay for it. This should determine the extra price the companies should be charging for it.

-Totally agree

 

[Greenback]

I don't think there will be agreement on this subject. Why shouldn't there be a premium product on some trains? There are executive rooms in some hotels, premium tickets on some flights, and so on.

On long distance trains and commuter routes, first class can make the product more attractive to some passengers, either because of better facilities or because of a higher chance of getting a seat.

Perhaps there is too much first class provision on some trains, but that doesn't mean it needs to go completely.

 

[yorkie]

I personally think yes it is time to get rid of 1st class. I really dont see the point of it. On most trains it is exactly identical to std class (except for head cloths on seats). It is also normally completly empty (or just used by fare evaders). I think all trains should be std class only.

Just because the likes of GTR misuse the term "first class" and there is no point in having it on those trains, doesn't mean it should be abolished on Virgin Trains
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think there will be agreement on this subject.

Agreed, especially as some people view experiences on poor third-rate operators as representative of the experience on vastly superior operators, for which there is a clear advantage of travelling 1st class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM has about 5 units on which it's worth travelling First Class - the 2+1 seating is very pleasant on the 319s. Shame you can't guarantee to get one.

 

[deltic]

Today's publication of south eastern franchise consultation - document can be seen here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9062/south-eastern-franchise-consultation.pdf looks like another nail in the coffin for first class on non-intercity services asking as it does whether first class should go.

 

[yorksrob]

Today's publication of south eastern franchise consultation - document can be seen here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9062/south-eastern-franchise-consultation.pdf looks like another nail in the coffin for first class on non-intercity services asking as it does whether first class should go.

Is there anywhere to suggest that they bring back 1st class compartments ?

 

[deltic]

Is there anywhere to suggest that they bring back 1st class compartments ?

No you are asked to respond to the usual stupid questions - including

Do you agree that more space is needed for passengers at the busiest times of
the day? - who is going to say no

Would you support removing First Class seating on the busiest routes to provide more space? - to which the majority will say yes

What comments if any, do you have on options for providing more space through:
a) Longer trains;
and
b) Metro style carriages with larger entrances and more standing room and
handholds? - while people will probably have different views on b) no-one is going to be opposed to longer trains.

 

[trainophile]

Standing and strap-hanging are all very well in commuter land, where by definition the vast majority of passengers will be the right side of 60. If seats are sacrificed on trains that also run during off peak hours (i.e. most of them), and replaced with standing room for the majority, this will put off a lot of elderly people who are unable to keep their balance in a moving train, or stand for any length of time.

I hope they consider this aspect before ripping out the seats on trains that serve a high proportion of middle-aged to elderly folk.

 

[ainsworth74]

For discussion of the Southeastern franchise, including proposals to remove first class please use the existing thread (see here). Anyone wanting to discuss whether we should have first class more generally is, of course, welcome to do so on this thread. Many thanks!

 

[trainophile]

Sorry ^ .

 

[Chester1]

My two cents on this topic is that First Class should be limited to long distance services and should be a minimium of one carriage. If that can't be justified then there is not sufficient demand to have first class. I don't agree with TPE current First Class offering. It offers little other than a guarenteed seat and wastes space on services that are often very full. The new 5 coach TPE services with a seperate carriage, food etc seem like a good idea and will encourage more business travelers. I use first class when advanced tickets are a decent price but on open tickets I think its a waste of money.

 

[LAX54]

Is it time to abolish first class? It could be argued that this would solve some of the capacity problems. It is often very expensive compared to standard. Often not really that much different. With the general trend towards casual attitudes in society, some might say it's time for class to be done with. Any opinions?

The rest of the World still has 1st class, but I assume those that say abolish it want to see us in the 3rd world area, where we are all squashed in like sardines, even the USA where there are not many passenger services have 1st class !
Agree Surburban services its not really warranted.

so get rid of 1st on trains, then airlines..etc

 

[al78]

I don't think there will be agreement on this subject. Why shouldn't there be a premium product on some trains? There are executive rooms in some hotels, premium tickets on some flights, and so on.

On long distance trains and commuter routes, first class can make the product more attractive to some passengers, either because of better facilities or because of a higher chance of getting a seat.

Perhaps there is too much first class provision on some trains, but that doesn't mean it needs to go completely.

It is to do with making best use of very limited space. If standard class is rammed full and first class two thirds empty then that is a poor use of limited space. It is like someone booking multiple spaces in a high demand car park and only using one of them, just so they don't have to park next to someone elses car.

The analogy with hotels and planes doesn't work. In a hotel if it is fully booked I can just try another one a hundred metres away. If a train is rammed so full I can't get on, I can't take the train on the next platform as it will be going somewhere other than where I want to go. I have to wait some time for the next one, by which time I will have missed whatever commitments I had later that day. In the case of aircraft, you don't just turn up and hope to get on, you have to book in advance, and traveling on aircraft is nothing like traveling on trains. You don't catch a flight with the aim of arriving just in time, so it is feasible to book a later flight if one is booked up without affecting personal schedules.

Ultimately, the issue is we live in a crowded congested country, and services/resources are in high demand and limited, so it is best all round to make efficient use of them.

 

[misterredmist]

.

The analogy with hotels and planes doesn't work. In a hotel if it is fully booked I can just try another one a hundred metres away. If a train is rammed so full I can't get on, I can't take the train on the next platform as it will be going somewhere other than where I want to go. I have to wait some time for the next one, by which time I will have missed whatever commitments I had later that day. In the case of aircraft, you don't just turn up and hope to get on, you have to book in advance, and traveling on aircraft is nothing like traveling on trains. You don't catch a flight with the aim of arriving just in time, so it is feasible to book a later flight if one is booked up without affecting personal schedules.

Ultimately, the issue is we live in a crowded congested country, and services/resources are in high demand and limited, so it is best all round to make efficient use of them.

That all rather misses the point. The rail companies offer 1st Class to attract customers willing to pay premium fares that they make profitable revenue on. Without that revenue, then they'd have to up the ante on Standard Class fares and become less competitive. It is also very attractive to business people who can work whilst travelling on the train in relative peace and comfort.

As for airlines, I have turned up at an airport without a ticket and boarded the next flight, and guess what, I was charged a 'premium' rate. I am sure if first class did not work for the operators, they would withdraw it.

 

[HH]

I am sure if first class did not work for the operators, they would withdraw it.

Changes to the First Class offer, which usually include removal on non-intercity services, are always considered by bidders when responding to the ITT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly Japan, which has a far more overcrowded railway than ours, does have 1st - on local trains 1st is 2+2, 2nd is longitudinal with the assumption of standing.

 

[321over360]

First Class should only exist on what was once the Intercity services of BR era namely some of the following:

Great Eastern Mainline (services currently run with MK3s/90s)
East Coast Mainline (any services currently using HSTs/91s or 180s
West Coast Mainline (All long distance routes - ie run by Virgin or Cross Country
Great Western Mainline (all services currently using HSTs)
Midland Mainline (all services using HSTs/Meridians)

All EMU run services should have first class removed as they are usually no improvement to comfort anyway

 

[duncanp]

I like using first class on some long distance South West Trains services, such as those on the Weymouth and Exeter lines.

The first class accommodation on those trains is definitely better than standard, unlike companies such as Southern and South Eastern.

Other South West trains services should be standard class only, which is already the case for some of them.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Apart from Weymouth (or Poole)-Waterloo and Portsmouth Harbour-Waterloo should all of SWT's "blue routes" have 1st class removed? How well used is the 1st class on the above two routes (both peak and off-peak)?

 

[AlterEgo]

Apart from Weymouth (or Poole)-Waterloo and Portsmouth Harbour-Waterloo should all of SWT's "blue routes" have 1st class removed? How well used is the 1st class on the above two routes (both peak and off-peak)?

During the peak, First Class is usually 90% full or thereabouts between Woking and Waterloo.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

During the peak, First Class is usually 90% full or thereabouts between Woking and Waterloo.

Is that generally 2x444 or 3x450?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is that generally 2x444 or 3x450?

Both. And the occasional 2/3x159.

 

[GodAtum]

Apart from Weymouth (or Poole)-Waterloo and Portsmouth Harbour-Waterloo should all of SWT's "blue routes" have 1st class removed? How well used is the 1st class on the above two routes (both peak and off-peak)?

Full of non-1st clas ticket holders :roll:

I have a 1st ticket to get a better chance of getting a seat. if 1st was removed, I'm not sure what I'll do.

 

[AlterEgo]

Full of non-1st clas ticket holders :roll:

I have a 1st ticket to get a better chance of getting a seat. if 1st was removed, I'm not sure what I'll do.

You'd buy a standard class ticket of course.

 

[Lee_Again]

Getting rid of First Class would not solve any problems. At best a few more seats would be created. But revenue would drop considerably so don't expect this to happen anytime soon.

Over the years I've commuted in Standard and First, including annual tickets. Once my kids leave home I'll be back in First. And the train company will get an extra £2K in revenue.


The best way to increase capacity is to use longer trains. On my route (King's Cross) only a handful of trains are 12 coaches. There are plenty of trains that can be lengthened. And the cost of trains/platforms is far cheaper than building new tracks. In the evening peak there are a number of 4,5 and 6 coach trains going across the Welwyn viaduct. This is a massive under utilisation of capacity. The TOCs should be told anything less than 8 must go via Hertford.

 

[Polarbear]

For me, I think 1st class should be offered on most if not all longer distance services, typically where journey times are over an hour or so. On shorter distance commuter services, or branch lines, I don't personally see the need for 1st class.

What I find strange is that with some operators, the 1st class offer is little different to that offered to standard class. Examples include Southern and Greater Anglia (on the 321's at any rate). If 1st class is to be provided, then (in my view) the TOC's should at least make it worthwhile in terms of comfort & ambiance.

Certainly, for the erstwhile Inter City TOC's, 1st class is a good money-spinner and it would be daft for those companies to sacrifice 1st class accommodation.