First class, is it really first class?

[mark7144]

When I get the Great Western train from Ealing Broadway there is a section with first class seats.. is that available to everyone or do I have to pay extra?

(sorry for the newbie question)

 

[Tom]

Depends what service you're on ...

I think most ex-GW link services are standard class only, what train are you travelling on? (ie, final destination).

If it's standard class only, then yes anyone can sit there.

 

[Techniquest]

Not worth paying the extra for anyway!

 

[Tom B]

It may not be on commuter trains (can you imagine first class on a pacer anyway?) however on a long distance intercity it is. Anyway you can get pretty cheap tickets if you book in advance.

 

[Daniel]

Check the (printed) timetables. Look up the train your getting on, if theres a '1' at the top of the coloum, then it's got First Class and you need a first class ticket to go in there. However, if there is no '1' then First Class is declassified on that service (as it's printed as not having first class and first class tickets are unable to be sold on those services).

So if it's declassified you can sit in First on Standard tickets. And if an inspector comes up to you saying you need a first class ticket, (as I have had a few times from my every-service-is-declassified station), politely inform him/her that the train isn't advertised as having first class and the first class section is therefore declassified.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Heathrow Connect services are standard class only and do not have first class accommodation. All other FGW services from Ealing Broadway are First and Standard class (and advertised as such) and you must have an appropriate ticket to use First Class. If you don't it's a £20 penalty fare, which is quite expensive for a short distance.

I think most ex-GW link services are standard class only, what train are you travelling on? (ie, final destination).

Wrong!

 

[Tom]

That must have changed in one of the latest revisions then - as I distinctly remember Greenford trains being standard class only before ...

 

[devon_metro]

All Turbos are advertised as operating First Class.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

That must have changed in one of the latest revisions then - as I distinctly remember Greenford trains being standard class only before ...

Greenford trains have always had First Class, at least since the introduction of the Turbos. And, having a copy of the 2004 summer timetable to hand, I note that they are advertised as such in it, so there's been no recent change.

 

[mark7144]

I take the train from Ealing Broadway to Burnham (Berks)... I once sat in First Class but it looked pretty old and rubbish - I'm quite surprised you have to have special tickets for that!

 

[yorkie]

I take the train from Ealing Broadway to Burnham (Berks)... I once sat in First Class but it looked pretty old and rubbish - I'm quite surprised you have to have special tickets for that!

Probably a way of making money from unsuspecting pax by way of charging PFs.

FGW are hardly the most ethical of TOCs, and their RPIs have quite a reputation of being extremely 'desperate' and treating fare-paying passengers badly.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

FGW are hardly the most ethical of TOCs, and their RPIs have quite a reputation of being extremely 'desperate' and treating fare-paying passengers badly.

Shouldn't that read "non-fare-paying passengers"?

And its not just FGW's RPIs. When I've caught people using First Class with a standard class ticket, I've been known to take their return ticket off them, giving it back when they've paid for the upgrade at the ticket office.

 

[yorkie]

Shouldn't that read "non-fare-paying passengers"?

Nope, several people have reported run-ins with FGW RPIs, when in posession of valid tickets, and FGW have attempted to charge for a new ticket.

Examples include, but are not limited to:
* Claiming that you cannot stay overnight on a Saver outward portion (you CAN providing you do so before 1200 next day, if you cannot reach your destination at a reasonable time in the day you commence travel)
* Claiming that the FGW route is not valid for some journeys, e.g. West Midlands to London (it IS - see RG) and stealing a FOR from someone on such a journey and forcing them to STAND in standard.
* Taking permits to travel off passengers, then suddenly getting off the train and sending a new RPI on to the train without the customers PTT, the new RPI then acts as if the customer didn't have one
* Stole a season ticket off a fare-paying customer who had STOOD in a first class vestibule with a standard season in a PACKED train, and the guard had given him permission to stand there. They have no right to over-rule guards.

There must be more examples of the little hitlers abusing their power that aren't logged on the internet...

 

[Techniquest]

I didn't know any of those examples before, I am amazed how evil the GW RPIs can be. To take people's tickets off them (in the case of the PTT I refer to), not give it back and then alight from the train without informing the new RPI...I have two words for such prats:

Evil bastards.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Nope, several people have reported run-ins with FGW RPIs, when in posession of valid tickets, and FGW have attempted to charge for a new ticket.

Examples include, but are not limited to:
* Claiming that you cannot stay overnight on a Saver outward portion (you CAN providing you do so before 1200 next day, if you cannot reach your destination at a reasonable time in the day you commence travel)
* Claiming that the FGW route is not valid for some journeys, e.g. West Midlands to London (it IS - see RG) and stealing a FOR from someone on such a journey and forcing them to STAND in standard.
* Taking permits to travel off passengers, then suddenly getting off the train and sending a new RPI on to the train without the customers PTT, the new RPI then acts as if the customer didn't have one
* Stole a season ticket off a fare-paying customer who had STOOD in a first class vestibule with a standard season in a PACKED train, and the guard had given him permission to stand there. They have no right to over-rule guards.

There must be more examples of the little hitlers abusing their power that aren't logged on the internet...

All these things happened to you?

If not, how are you sure that they happened exactly as described to you?

For example, how do you know that the West Midlands to London ticket wasn't route restricted? How do you know that the season holder standing in first class had the guard's permission? Etc, etc.

 

[yorkie]

All these things happened to you?

One or two...

If not, how are you sure that they happened exactly as described to you?

Because I don't see why people would make these stories up, and because I don't have a Basil Fawlty-style 'The customer is always wrong' attitude

For example, how do you know that the West Midlands to London ticket wasn't route restricted? How do you know that the season holder standing in first class had the guard's permission? Etc, etc.

Are you accusing people of lying?

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/browse_frm/thread/e8b2cf25a0de053c/
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/ec98f9b600308b65/

My personal experiences:

I once had an RPI on this route get distracted while issuing me with a
ticket, he then got off the train to deal with something else, while he
had my Permit to travel with him. Before I could realise what was going
on, he had got off the train and a replacement RPI got on, the train
left, and the RPI went straight to me and asked for my ticket. I said
the RPI had the PTT, and he denied any knowledge of this. Fortunately
another passenger witnessed it, and after a very lengthy discussion he
issued a ticket. (I would have refused to pay a PF if he had not).

And, just the other night, a FGW RPI refused to let me go to my Travelodge in Slough and resume my Saver the next morning, I politely pointed out his mistake but he was still refusing to give up, confiscated my ticket and was refusing to issue a receipt for it, eventually an off-duty staff member put him right.

FGW RPIs have a bad reputation among their customers. Fact. Take a look at the uk.railway archives....

Oh, I found another 'gem'..

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.r...60653467bc?lnk=gst&q=fgw+rpi#6a12d060653467bc


On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:32:00 -0800, Oxford Blue wrote:
> I travelled on a First Open ticket, having 'broken' my journey en-route
> for four days and resuming it today to my destination.

Sounds like a specific FGW or FWL barrier guard at Reading. First time, I
dealt with him, he refused to let me enter the station concorse (not even
breaking a journey, even though it would be valid) on my Twyford - Reading
West CDR.
A few weeks later my Dearly Beloved was told by the same RPI that her
travelcard from Twyford to London via Reading was to be confiscated at
Reading after she travelled from TWY to EAL, then on the tube, then back
on a FGW PAD to RDG, with the intent to break journey for a few hours in
Reading before RDG to TWY.

This particular RPI has had two chances and got it wrong both times. Third
one get a complaint letter.

 

[devon_metro]

Lets all jump on the FGW hate bandwagon.

Its not FGW RPIs, all TOCs have some desperate people out there, and its individuals, shouldnt we labelled with the TOC (despute everything on the planet being bad being fgws fault :roll

 

[me123]

Its not FGW RPIs, all TOCs have some desperate people out there, and its individuals, shouldnt we labelled with the TOC (despute everything on the planet being bad being fgws fault :roll

A few people on GNER fit this description, whilst others are among the nices people you'd ever meet, for example.

 

[Jim]

Lets all jump on the FGW hate bandwagon.

Its not FGW RPIs, all TOCs have some desperate people out there, and its individuals, shouldnt we labelled with the TOC (despute everything on the planet being bad being fgws fault :roll

For once - I agree with you!

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Because I don't see why people would make these stories up, and because I don't have a Basil Fawlty-style 'The customer is always wrong' attitude

You really should spend a day with a team of RPIs. You'd hear every excuse in the books and come out of the exercise with a much more cynical (and far more realistic) view of mankind.

Are you accusing people of lying?

One of the things you will learn is the way in which people will distort the truth to portray themselves in a good light. Take this one for example.

Assuming that he was actually given permission, he was already standing in first class when the ticket inspection took place, so he had already been travelling there without permission. The idea is that you seek permission first. Secondly, the passenger said of the member of on-board staff

He said nothing other than 'OK Sir', and to me, that's permission."

So it's his interpretation that he's been given permission. Suppose you were caught with a kilo of heroin in your pocket and the police said "Ok sir", would you take that to mean that you'd been given permission to carry it?

"OK sir" might just as well have meant "OK sir, if I deal with this now I'll never get through the rest of the train, so I'll let the RPIs deal with it when you get off."

And by the way, this incident took place in May 2006. You're really having to dredge the bottom of the barrel for knocking material, aren't you!

My personal experiences:

And, just the other night, a FGW RPI refused to let me go to my Travelodge in Slough and resume my Saver the next morning, I politely pointed out his mistake but he was still refusing to give up, confiscated my ticket and was refusing to issue a receipt for it, eventually an off-duty staff member put him right.

You don't say where you were travelling from or to.

The rule is that:

A break of journey on a Single ticket or on the outward portion of a Return ticket is permitted only to get to station services and to change trains at an intermediate station. If there is no reasonable onward connection the same day, the journey may be broken overnight and continued the next morning before 1200.

Note the word "connection". Which information source (NRTT, NRES, etc) suggested Slough as a place to change trains on your journey. What connection were you planning to get at Slough which wasn't available to you at that time of night? The only connections that you might want to get by changing at Slough are to places like Windsor, Taplow, Twyford, Langley, etc. The break of journey concession (and it is a concession that can be withdrawn, not a right) is provided so that reasonable journeys that cannot reasonably be completed within the day become possible, not so that you can hop off at Slough on a London to Penzance journey and get a cheap hotel.

Perhaps you should have spent the night in Slough nick. It would have been even cheaper!

 

[yorkie]

<Sigh>

Here we go again...

You really should spend a day with a team of RPIs. You'd hear every excuse in the books and come out of the exercise with a much more cynical (and far more realistic) view of mankind.

Erm, no thanks. If you're that cynical, go and work elsewhere as the rail industry really needs people who aren't cynical about it's customers and try to encourage people to travel by rail rather than be put off.

One of the things you will learn is the way in which people will distort the truth to portray themselves in a good light. Take this one for example.

Assuming that he was actually given permission, he was already standing in first class when the ticket inspection took place, so he had already been travelling there without permission. The idea is that you seek permission first. Secondly, the passenger said of the member of on-board staff So it's his interpretation that he's been given permission. Suppose you were caught with a kilo of heroin in your pocket and the police said "Ok sir", would you take that to mean that you'd been given permission to carry it?

"OK sir" might just as well have meant "OK sir, if I deal with this now I'll never get through the rest of the train, so I'll let the RPIs deal with it when you get off."

I'm not even going to answer that one...

And by the way, this incident took place in May 2006. You're really having to dredge the bottom of the barrel for knocking material, aren't you!

Not really, it's just an example, among several others, and one that I recall reading about so it was relatively easy for me to find.

You don't say where you were travelling from or to.

It was a journey valid through Slough, and that's all that matters.

The rule is that:


Note the word "connection". Which information source (NRTT, NRES, etc) suggested Slough as a place to change trains on your journey. What connection were you planning to get at Slough which wasn't available to you at that time of night? The only connections that you might want to get by changing at Slough are to places like Windsor, Taplow, Twyford, Langley, etc.

You display a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules.

Have a read of RAIL magazine, issue 570, and look in the Fare Dealer article by Barry Doe.

I have reproduced the relevant paragraphs here... (a few particularly relevant points highlighted by me in bold)

"Now here’s the bit very few staff appreciate. What if I travel on a Saver Return from London to Edinburgh on the 1900 and break my journey overnight at Newcastle, for unlike a single, a Saver does not permit a break of journey on the outward leg?

National Conditions para 16 says that ‘you are treated as breaking your journey if you leave stations after you start your journey other than to join a train at another station or to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day.’

The important thing here is that if the train you use cannot ‘reasonably’ get you to your destination that day then stopping overnight is NOT counted as a break of journey.

I have asked some of the few experts that remain in the industry (yes, they really are in short supply and I fear what happens when they’ve all retired!) and been told that ‘reasonable’ means nobody can insist that if you catch the 1900 and arrive Newcastle 2207 you must sit on the station until the next onward train at 0625.

Furthermore Fares Manuals add that, as with singles, you only have to recommence your journey by 1200; and neither do National Conditions say that the overnight stay must be where the train terminates. The fact that the 1900 terminates Newcastle with no onward connection gives you the right to stay overnight, but where you stay is your decision and York is fine if you prefer."

(Thanks to Barry Doe for providing me with the issue number and text above - I knew I'd read it before but couldn't find which issue it was in)

The break of journey concession (and it is a concession that can be withdrawn, not a right) is provided so that reasonable journeys that cannot reasonably be completed within the day become possible, not so that you can hop off at Slough on a London to Penzance journey and get a cheap hotel.

Where is this documented please?

Oh wait, you made it up? No surprise there then

Perhaps you should have spent the night in Slough nick. It would have been even cheaper!

Perhaps you should spend the night in your local nick for misleading your customers?

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Erm, no thanks. If you're that cynical, go and work elsewhere as the rail industry really needs people who aren't cynical about it's customers and try to encourage people to travel by rail rather than be put off.

Have you ever thought that maybe it's some of the customers who make railway people cynical! Isn't it amazing how people are using rail in ever increasing numbers. We must be doing something right!

You display a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules.

No, as one of the people responsible for defining the rules and deciding how they should be interpreted, it's logically impossible for me to misunderstand them. I'm glad, though, that you see fit to repeat Barry Doe's praises of us experts in the industry.

Your example from Barry is precisely right and that is what the break of journey facility exists for. If you are travelling to, say, Edinburgh and cannot leave London until 1900, you are quite entitled to break your journey at Newcastle for an overnight stop, and there would be a convenient onwards train the next morning. Equally York seems a reasonable choice. However, it would be very odd if you chose to break your journey at Finsbury Park or Potters Bar!

However, breaking your journey at Slough is a different matter. If you are heading towards London then if you can reach Slough you can reach Paddington. If you are heading out of London (on a Saver, which implies a journey of some distance) then one would be entitled to ask why you would choose to break your journey at Slough. You would gain very little advantage (indeed to most destinations the journey would take longer) over starting your journey from London the following morning. The question is one of reasonableness and a break at Slough hardly passes that test. One might reasonably suspect in those circumstances that you had some other reason for wanting to be in Slough the next morning - a meeting perhaps? That, of course, would make the break of journey impermissible.

It was a journey valid through Slough, and that's all that matters.

No, it matters very much where you were travelling from and to. If you were travelling from, say, Sheringham to Penzance, then a break at Slough might be reasonable, although a break in London or Reading, from where you could catch a direct train to your destination might be more sensible. If, however, you were travelling from London to Oxford, you could just as easily travel the whole way without a break of journey.

 

[Tom]

The journey in question is over quite a long distance and IMHO the rules do state a convenient place to stop for an overnight stay - in this instance Slough was quite an appropriate place bearing in mind that most people do not wish to pay over the odds for overnight accomodation. As for a meeting in Slough - I can confirm yorkie was just continuing his journey the next day (0830 ish start off Slough).

 

[W14Fishbourne]

The journey in question is over quite a long distance and IMHO the rules do state a convenient place to stop for an overnight stay - in this instance Slough was quite an appropriate place bearing in mind that most people do not wish to pay over the odds for overnight accomodation. As for a meeting in Slough - I can confirm yorkie was just continuing his journey the next day (0830 ish start off Slough).

Given that this discussion was about the actions of FGW RPIs (ignoring the fact that there would be none of the RPI team on duty at Slough late in the evening) I think you will accept that his decision to break his journey at Slough could be open to question. Since the Conditions state that "If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare", and, as it is the job of ticket inspection staff to prevent fraudulent travel, it was for him to show that he was legitimately entitled to do so, on the grounds that he could not reasonably complete his journey within one day.

Of course, without knowing the details of that journey - origin, destination, and time (and you both seem very coy about revealing those details) I cannot possibly say whether he could reasonably have completed his journey within the day, and therefore whether the gateline staff at Slough were acting reasonably. Maybe he was only travelling to Oxford, for example, and could easily have done so that night, but a hotel in Slough was cheaper than one in Oxford. That would not be enough to permit a break of journey at Slough. Without the facts we don't know.

 

[Tom]

He was travelling through to a destination on the Castle Cary - Weymouth line, which as I'm sure you know has no real service at any time during the day - he didn't get to London until 2100 so I think breaking at Slough was entirely reasonable and the FGW RPI was very much out of course.

Not to mention that strictly speaking, it's not wrong to buy a ticket to beyond your destination so therefore yorkie could technically have been mis-quoted, unless it's now imperative to get XS fares if you're starting your return journey from somewhere further down the line (say, if I did the journey I could get off at Maiden Newton and have a SVR to Weymouth, that would be technically fine! I could then restart my journey on the RTN portion from say, Upwey.).

 

[yorkie]

The facts are it was a long distance journey to somewhere over 3 hours from the London/Slough area, and it was, as I stated previously, not possible to reasonably complete my journey in the same day. Slough is on a permitted route between origin and destination. What more would you possibly need to know?

And if that guy was not an RPI then I'd like to know why he acted like one, but that's beside the point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's another way of looking at it.

You say York is reasonable but Potters Bar isn't (for the London-Edinburgh example). Why is that? it's the passengers choice.

So, York is reasonable, the equivalent for me might have been Castle Cary. But there's nothing there. So I don't want to choose it. How, and why, can you deny me the right to choose an alternative? And, again, where is this documented or is it made up?

You expect passengers to abide by the rules, yet when we do, you make up new rules to say we can't do what we want to do? I paid a lot of money for my ticket so I expect to be able to do what I want with it, within the rules, which I did! If it's OK for you to break the contract, why isn't it OK for me to break the contract? Double standards!!

And it's so easy to pick on someone using SVRs when you have free unlimited FC travel... we're not all well-paid and have the luxury of getting all our travel free, so why shouldn't we get the most out of our tickets? I didn't get any more 'travel' out of my ticket than I was entitled to, in fact quite the opposite as I could have done something obscure such as going via Banbury and Brighton, or via Cambridge or something like that, all of which is permitted. The fact something is not "logical" to you is irrelevant. If it's permitted, it's permitted.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

The facts are it was a long distance journey to somewhere over 3 hours from the London/Slough area, and it was, as I stated previously, not possible to reasonably complete my journey in the same day. Slough is on a permitted route between origin and destination. What more would you possibly need to know?

And if that guy was not an RPI then I'd like to know why he acted like one, but that's beside the point.

An interesting choice of words. At first sight you could be implying somewhere Exeter or westwards, but your mention that "Slough is on a permitted route between origin and destination" makes me think that you were, in fact, heading for somewhere like Birmingham. There might, therefore, have been a train from either Marylebone or Euston which would have allowed you to reasonably complete your journey that night. Again, without the facts it's impossible to say, but your coyness could arouse suspicions that you are hiding something that will undermine your case. If you acted like that with the gateline staff, no wonder they were suspicious of you.

Of course, you might also have been breaking your journey overnight so that you could continue next morning on a train which would normally be barred to Savers. A £50 Travelodge room plus a Saver could be a lot cheaper than an Open Return on a journey to Birmingham next morning.

PS: the only that that gateline staff cannot do that RPIs can is to issue Penalty Fares.

 

[yorkie]

An interesting choice of words. At first sight you could be implying somewhere Exeter or westwards, but your mention that "Slough is on a permitted route between origin and destination" makes me think that you were, in fact, heading for somewhere like Birmingham. There might, therefore, have been a train from either Marylebone or Euston which would have allowed you to reasonably complete your journey that night.

Please just accept that there was no reasonable connection to get me back the same night.

Again, without the facts it's impossible to say,

What more facts do you need though?

but your coyness could arouse suspicions that you are hiding something that will undermine your case. If you acted like that with the gateline staff, no wonder they were suspicious of you.

The gateline staff member took my ticket off me, he could clearly see where I was going. He didn't attempt to dispute the route. I got my ticket back after what appeared to be a more senior staff member sided with me.

Of course, you might also have been breaking your journey overnight so that you could continue next morning on a train which would normally be barred to Savers. A £50 Travelodge room plus a Saver could be a lot cheaper than an Open Return on a journey to Birmingham next morning.

Interesting that you mention that, because at first the gate person tried to accuse me of doing that. I don't see a rule against it, I guess it's another imaginary one, but as my journey the next day was on a weekend it wasn't actually relevant.

PS: the only that that gateline staff cannot do that RPIs can is to issue Penalty Fares.

So they can confiscate tickets? Which is what he was going to do. Shame they weren't taught that they have to issue a recepit if they do that, as I was going nowhere until he did! (although, as I say, he was over-ruled eventually so it didn't come to that...)

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Interesting that you mention that, because at first the gate person tried to accuse me of doing that. I don't see a rule against it, I guess it's another imaginary one, but as my journey the next day was on a weekend it wasn't actually relevant.

Don't quote me on it, but I'm fairly sure that there's no rule against it. Otherwise, if you were barred from catching trains that leave London before, say, 0930, you might not be able to catch a train from your overnight stop until after the noon deadline.

 

[Nick W]

Don't quote me on it, but I'm fairly sure that there's no rule against it. Otherwise, if you were barred from catching trains that leave London before, say, 0930, you might not be able to catch a train from your overnight stop until after the noon deadline.

In which case I'd assume that as long as you enter station property by noon, it would be considered that you recommenced your journey by noon.

Of course, you might also have been breaking your journey overnight so that you could continue next morning on a train which would normally be barred to Savers.

"Normally" be barred??

A £50 Travelodge room plus a Saver could be a lot cheaper than an Open Return on a journey to Birmingham next morning.

I believe that a saver (off-peak) is cheaper than an open (peak), becaue the railway is trying to encourage people off overcrowded services onto
services with capacity.

Therefore doing this would achieve what the railway wants and is in no way stealing the revenue you try so hard to "protect".

There might, therefore, have been a train from either Marylebone or Euston which would have allowed you to reasonably complete your journey that night.

So now the passenger has no right to pick any permitted route for his or her journey despite the fact that all ToCs will receive money from the ticket sale even if a day single ticket is sold at a time it is too late to complete the journey via one route?

Note the word "connection". Which information source (NRTT, NRES, etc) suggested Slough as a place to change trains on your journey. What connection were you planning to get at Slough which wasn't available to you at that time of night?

Let's start a competition to think of the worst possible places where you might have to stay under W14Fishbourne's interpretation.

I can think of Westerfield (getting a London - Lowestoft train after the last Felixstowe train has left Ipswich). Long walk into Ipswich for a Hotel.

Georgemas Junction is very remote though you may point out that all trains call at thurso and wick

Dovey Junction - also very remote and could be a rough night...