First Class "Boundary" onboard EC HST

[Eastcoast43208]

Hello its me again, another general question for all.

in the doorway of all the First Class coaches on the MK3s there is a small sign that reads "Welcome to First Class" and a Small bit of Text Saying

"All areas beyond this notice including the Vestibule are for use by First Class Ticket holders only.
if you wish to travel in this area you will be charged the First Class fare for your Journey"

Now Here's the Question, if have a Standard class ticket and Boarded the train through the end door in Coach M, Behind the Powercar.
and I was only Travelling from Newcastle to Darlington for example, not a long Journey just under 30mins, Would i Be Breaking the rules ?

Ive had to do this a few times Boarding through a First Class door because the train was ready to depart and I dont mind standing on a Short Journey in this Little area where rarely anybody goes, plus Iam Behind the Powercar.


I Dont want to Disturb the Passengers in First class walking though so I usually would stay just there, in the past I would just walk Through to standard.

The only Issue is most Guards Dont mind me standing down there on a Short Journey, While other Guards have a really Big fit about it'

Now I completely understand that Because it is a first class coach, and i shouldn't really be there, But getting off at the next stop and doing no real harm, so Where is the Boundary or first class, the Sign or is just the Entire coach off limits ?

I have attached a Picture on the Sign

Feedback welcomed
Thanks guys.

 

[ainsworth74]

A first class coach is for the use of first class customers only and that includes the vestibule. Whilst some guards/staff might not take issue with it that would be them using their discretion rather than the other staff being harsh. Obviously it's acceptable to board at a first class door if the alternative is to miss the train but it's not acceptable to loiter within first class on a standard class ticket and if you wish to do so then the upgrade is payable. I think the sign is pretty clear on that

 

[BestWestern]

Hmm, a bit risky I would say.

Certainly FGW recently had a purge on the particular issue of standard class pax standing in first vestibules, even if the train was busy. If one was to stick to the rules, by standing in the vestibule area of a first class carriage - particularly in an area which is not adjacent to a standard class saloon - you would be very definitely travelling in first class and liable to be charged as such. It's also worth pointing out that many Guards might well already be suspicious of anybody tucked away in a vestibule at an extreme end of the train, it's textbook 'dodger behaviour! I wouldn't chance it myself, one day you will come up against somebody who doesn't believe you! Having said that, if you plead trainspotting you might be ok most of the time!

On a different note, that vestibule looks pretty grotty to me, not especially welcoming to first class pax :/ Hope the rest of the coach was better!

 

[Squaddie]

The only Issue is most Guards Dont mind me standing down there on a Short Journey, While other Guards have a really Big fit about it'

Now I completely understand that Because it is a first class coach, and i shouldn't really be there, But getting off at the next stop and doing no real harm, so Where is the Boundary or first class, the Sign or is just the Entire coach off limits?

The rules are very clear: if you want to travel in the first class carriage you must pay the correct first class fare. The fact that you're only going one stop doesn't make any difference.

 

[HST Power]

It may seem a little odd stating that you can't stand in a vestibule, but rules are rules! The problem is, if you let dozens of people all stand around in the vestibule (staring in at all the First Class customers with their free tea and cake* ) it doesn't do much for the ambience. Furthermore, its not just the seated area of a coach that is First Class, its the whole coach, which therefore includes the vestibule area.

*I think I should just point out, subject to this thread, that tea and cake is served on availability!

 

[rob.rjt]

Loathe though I am to annoy people, I think that the words being used on the notice do suggest that, certainly for the vestibules at the ends of First Class, they are not part of first class and especially if the notices are on the bulkhead between the vestibule and the seated area.

The notice clearly states that the areas "beyond this notice" are for First Class ticket holders. That reading of the notice could also read the "this area" in the second paragraph as referring to the same places as the "all areas" in the first paragraph.

This argument does potentially become tenuous for vestibules between first class carriages, but if the same notices are posted in each carriage, then someone who boarded without realising it was a first class area could argue that, reading the notices, they have not passed into a first class area as they have not gone beyond the notice.

I will not argue the point about walking towards standard class "all areas beyond this notice..." as I am not sure if there is a "You are now entering standard class" sign.

*dons flameproof suit*

 

[Eastcoast43208]

Thank you for all your responses everyone, I still Dont know the situation on this First class boundary but it really does seem on the discretion of the guard at the end of the day, plus the way the sign is worded doesn't help at all, anyway Iam sure we will know in the future

 

[ainsworth74]

If you stand in the vestibule of a first class coach your are liable to pay the appropriate first class upgrade. If guard decides not to bother then that's fine but it doesn't change that you are liable to pay it (and there is a guard on here that does charge people for standing in first class vestibules). There is no confusion on this.

 

[Roverman]

Just had a thought on this, First Class passengers tend to get free wifi whereas Standard Class have to pay for it, would being in the vestibule on a smart phone mean you would be able to log in under First Class and therefore get it for free?

 

[telstarbox]

Yes - and on a good day you can sit in the seats nearest to the vestibule in the adjacent Standard coach and pick up the wi-fi.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

On a jam packed voyager in Cornwall, I stood in the First class vestibule as many others did and the guard had no problem

 

[ainsworth74]

On a jam packed voyager in Cornwall, I stood in the First class vestibule as many others did and the guard had no problem

As I indicated the guard is perfectly entitled to show discretion but, again, they could equally have charged you and everyone else the upgrade.

 

[BestWestern]

On a jam packed voyager in Cornwall, I stood in the First class vestibule as many others did and the guard had no problem

Probably didn't fancy being lynched when he started trying to charge people extra for their third world travel experience! There are instances where sensible Guards, myself included, might deem it to be inappropriate to start doing revenue. For me, when going through a train means everyone breathing in to let you past and you frequently standing on people's toes, its usually time to leave the Avantix in the back.

 

[D2022]

On some of First Great Westerns more 'cramped' services people hover around the buffet end of the first class and tend to be given some leeway on it. I personally don't see the issue, although I am a massive fan of abolishing first class entirely as its antiquated.

 

[Westboy]

I commuted for a year from Taunton to Bristol in the vestibule of the first class carriage on XC. Neatly avoiding the crush on the rest of the train.

Nobody, train staff or otherwise, ever said a word.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Probably didn't fancy being lynched when he started trying to charge people extra for their third world travel experience! There are instances where sensible Guards, myself included, might deem it to be inappropriate to start doing revenue. For me, when going through a train means everyone breathing in to let you past and you frequently standing on people's toes, its usually time to leave the Avantix in the back.

Yes, the train was absolutely jam packed, there were people standing in some of the Aisles and there was absolutely nowhere we could stand, so it was good on the guard for letting us stand there. He just came by and checked our tickets and said sorry about the overcrowding.

 

[telstarbox]

Then on TPE 185s there's the bit between First and the cab which has 6 (standard) fold down seats, but many passengers avoid as the nearest door has a large "1" on it. Useful to know when it's busy!

 

[Butts]

Then on TPE 185s there's the bit between First and the cab which has 6 (standard) fold down seats, but many passengers avoid as the nearest door has a large "1" on it. Useful to know when it's busy!

Yes I have been in that section a few times and as you say it is not obvious.

With regard to "plebs" standing in the First Class Vestibules - if I have paid a derisory sum for an Advanced 1st Class Ticket, I don't want them "rubbernecking" as I enjoy the complimentary catering :roll:

Also it's damned inconvenient when you have to wade through all those people who have paid MORE than you to travel 2nd Class, in order to visit the Lavatory.

 

[Eagle]

Then on TPE 185s there's the bit between First and the cab which has 6 (standard) fold down seats, but many passengers avoid as the nearest door has a large "1" on it.

That's presumably not including the few passengers who see the word "First" written on all the carriages and get confused... :P

(I have seen this happen, although with FGW rather than FTPE.)

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I used to have no issues with FGW standing in the front vestibule on a Bath & Bristol day ranger. I would always be in Coach H and guards had no issue, mainly as I was only going to Bath anyway and also it was in the days when everything had a Valenta/VP185, that's why I was at the front of Coach H.

A couple did prefer that I had an FC ticket, so I used to just give them a voucher from the booklet (I forget what it was called, but you had a booklet of vouchers each month sent to you, including a small amount of free first class ones for weekends).

 

[BestWestern]

On some of First Great Westerns more 'cramped' services people hover around the buffet end of the first class and tend to be given some leeway on it. I personally don't see the issue, although I am a massive fan of abolishing first class entirely as its antiquated.

Hmm, interesting thought. I supposed ultimately it's down to revenue; all the time it makes a substantial profit it will stay and the 'plebs' in standard will have to sit on each other's laps We do at least allow Guards the option of declassifying in the worst cases I suppose, which is good to know. You mention FGW; there was a bit of a push a while ago to get Guards to clear people out of First vestibules in particular, though to be honest I would imagine many would probably rather avoid the aggro if the train is that packed, where are they supposed to go after all?!

 

[D2022]

Hmm, interesting thought. I supposed ultimately it's down to revenue; all the time it makes a substantial profit it will stay and the 'plebs' in standard will have to sit on each other's laps We do at least allow Guards the option of declassifying in the worst cases I suppose, which is good to know. You mention FGW; there was a bit of a push a while ago to get Guards to clear people out of First vestibules in particular, though to be honest I would imagine many would probably rather avoid the aggro if the train is that packed, where are they supposed to go after all?![/QUOTE
Don't get me wrong I appreciate its a source of income and those who want it obviously need it, I just personally think with over crowding becoming an issue in rush hours we should do away with it, stop these often pompous businessman hogging half a carriage of empty first class when the cattle class are trying to play Tetris with one another.
Plus play the obvious class card and see what happens if you call someone the wrong class tier nowadays... but yes. Only personal opinion, no doubt I've upset a few people lol. From experience train crews don't want or need the hassle of pushing people out, it disgruntles them.

 

[PR1Berske]

Yes - and on a good day you can sit in the seats nearest to the vestibule in the adjacent Standard coach and pick up the wi-fi.

Which is fine by me.

 

[musicking1306]

I have stood in the vestibule of first class carriages between Bristol Temple Meads and London Paddington. I fine that if you have a valid ticket and that you don't keep looking into First class then the guard isn't too bothered. However I don't know if management would say differently. I have know of some noisy people boarding the Train and standing in the vestibule for First class and the guard has moved them back to Standard class.

 

[reb0118]

.........the guard.......said sorry about the overcrowding.

Ooops! Naughty naughty! We are no longer allowed to state overcrowding ~ the correct terminology now is "lack of seating".

 

[ryan125hst]

Hello its me again, another general question for all.

in the doorway of all the First Class coaches on the MK3s there is a small sign that reads "Welcome to First Class" and a Small bit of Text Saying

"All areas beyond this notice including the Vestibule are for use by First Class Ticket holders only.
if you wish to travel in this area you will be charged the First Class fare for your Journey"

Now Here's the Question, if have a Standard class ticket and Boarded the train through the end door in Coach M, Behind the Powercar.
and I was only Travelling from Newcastle to Darlington for example, not a long Journey just under 30mins, Would i Be Breaking the rules ?

Ive had to do this a few times Boarding through a First Class door because the train was ready to depart and I dont mind standing on a Short Journey in this Little area where rarely anybody goes, plus Iam Behind the Powercar.


I Dont want to Disturb the Passengers in First class walking though so I usually would stay just there, in the past I would just walk Through to standard.

The only Issue is most Guards Dont mind me standing down there on a Short Journey, While other Guards have a really Big fit about it'

Now I completely understand that Because it is a first class coach, and i shouldn't really be there, But getting off at the next stop and doing no real harm, so Where is the Boundary or first class, the Sign or is just the Entire coach off limits ?

I have attached a Picture on the Sign

Feedback welcomed
Thanks guys.

What coach, and which end of the coach, was the sign in? I ask because on an East Coast HST, first class now starts after the buffet area in coach J, where there is no vestibule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then on TPE 185s there's the bit between First and the cab which has 6 (standard) fold down seats, but many passengers avoid as the nearest door has a large "1" on it. Useful to know when it's busy!

After watching a You Tube video of a TPE 185 yesterday, I was wondering whether or not it is OK for standard class passengers to sit or stand in that area, and I looked at the seating plan and guessed that I was. I presume that I am correct?

 

[telstarbox]

After watching a You Tube video of a TPE 185 yesterday, I was wondering whether or not it is OK for standard class passengers to sit or stand in that area, and I looked at the seating plan and guessed that I was. I presume that I am correct?

Yes - the First Class compartment is just the section of 2+1 seating between the two sets of internal doors. The fold-down seats aren't as comfortable though and they face sideways (across the carriage) rather than forwards/backwards.

 

[ainsworth74]

The fold-down seats aren't as comfortable though and they face sideways (across the carriage) rather than forwards/backwards.

Though if you get the place to yourself (and on trains that aren't totally rammed you often do in my experience) you can sit sideways and there's a pull out table behind the middle seat on each side which is quite useful.

 

[Qwerty133]

Ooops! Naughty naughty! We are no longer allowed to state overcrowding ~ the correct terminology now is "lack of seating".

is this serious
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes - and on a good day you can sit in the seats nearest to the vestibule in the adjacent Standard coach and pick up the wi-fi.

or on 4/5 car meridions anywhere in the standard portion of coach D

 

[reb0118]

Ooops! Naughty naughty! We are no longer allowed to state overcrowding ~ the correct terminology now is "lack of seating".

is this serious

Yes, but not all staff follow guided scripts.