Fined 1,5K.

[doglover12]

Hi all,

A couple of months ago in August, I got caught with a 16-17 savers card, and I gave all my details. I just got my letter emailed this morning, and I got fined 1.5k, including the admin fee. I'm a student, and I know that's not an excuse, but I want to appeal it, and they're only giving me 7 days. Any advice would be appreciated, and if you need me to attach proof, that's fine. It was with Thameslink. I don't know how generous they are, etc. Since then, I stopped fare evasion, and I have bought a 16-25 railway card, which I do use. ChatGPT gave me something to email, but I would rather ask professionals. Thanks for your time. Hope to hear from all of you soon. Thanks.

 

[soccermad]

If you are able to post on here a redacted version of the email, that will be a good start to getting advice from the experts on here ?

 

[John R]

Can you post the letter you have received, with all your personal information hidden - you don’t want the whole internet to know you are a fare dodger, as it is a criminal offence.

Have they given you a list of instances where you incorrectly used the wrong railcard, for you to check against your own records?

 

[doglover12]

Can you post the letter you have received, with all your personal information hidden - you don’t want the whole internet to know you are a fare dodger, as it is a criminal offence.

Have they given you a list of instances where you incorrectly used the wrong railcard, for you to check against your own records?

 

[WesternLancer]

This won't be a 'fine' - this would be them seeking payment from you for fares they believe you have evaded I would think - ie the sum you owe them that you have dodged out of paying.

BUT - if you can give them plausible evidence / proof that you did not in fact evade these fares or even some of them - they will likely reduce that sum accordingly.

People here can help you compose a letter to request that - BUT the first question to ask you is do you think the list they have provided of fares you have not paid properly is correct or broadly correct - or do you think it's significantly wrong?

Remember - they will often not give people any credit for the sums you did pay towards you travel if you set out to evade paying what you owe - so there can be an element of the punitive about the sum they are asking - or otherwise people would keep evading the fares taking the chance that they would only have to pay the different on the occasion they go caught - and if you made a lot of trips before you got caught you will realise that there is a good chance of 'getting away with it' for quite a bit if time - and thus build up a big sum they want back off you.

But usually if they did catch you red handed on one occasion they can prosecute you in court for that one occasion - the outcome of that is a court fine (punishment for the offence of fare evasion) costs, victim surcharge etc and a criminal record. Most people want to avoid this - especially the criminal record which you would have to declare on job applications and depending on what your post student career aspirations are could be 'career limiting' in certain areas of work (eg medicine / health care, finance, law, teaching, social work etc especially) - so most people want to avoid all that.

EDIT - I presume you were knowingly using a 16-17 Saver Railcard to get a 50% discount on tickets when you should have had a 16-25 Young persons Railcard that only gives a 34% discount - and you have been caught and they have calculated what you owe?

Ie you do not have a 16-17 Railcard (and may well be aged over 17) - is this correct?

If this is the case then I think you should be finding a way to pay this sum (ie taking to your family about getting the money to pay them in the 14 days)

Otherwise you need to prepare for being prosecuted in the magistrates court (and people here can advice you on what to expect in relation to this if that comes to pass either because you can not pay this sum or you want to dispute it in court for some reason).

Do you have any plausible mitigation for what you did? (unfortunately being skint and a student is not 'plausible mitigation' that they will accept)

What they are basically offering you AIUI is an out of court settlement in exchange for you paying them the amount in fares that you have evaded - this avoids court action, fines etc and a criminal record against your name.

There is no 'Right of Appeal' to what they are offering (compared with a Penalty Fare for example) - but they are giving you the chance to correct it if anything is wrong. What grounds were you thinking you might have had to Appeal this?

If you want to formally appeal it then the process is to go to court and 'tell it to the magistrate' - but that is unlikely to be successful in my view as this is a strict liability offence - ie if you did it you are guilty - end of debate. You would have to defend yourself in court or engage and pay for a solicitor to represent you - and that would probably cost more than the sum the railway company is asking you for.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did you have a 16-17 Railcard or not?

Do you agree with the list of journeys that they have provided?

Have you sent any correspondence to them already? If so, what did you say?

From my perspective, GTR have been very fair in this matter- they have given you credit for the fares you actually paid. They didn't have to.

Your choice, therefore, is simple. You could allow GTR to prosecute you. They will only be able to prove fare evasion on the instance that they caught you, unless you have already acknowledged the other instances in writing. On the basis of the instance you were caught, the fine and costs is likely to be less than £1,500. But you will have a criminal conviction.

If you don't want the criminal conviction, you will have to pay up. The only negotiation will be if there are journeys in their list that you didn't take, which may give you some scope for negotiation. But otherwise, as above, GTR have actually been very fair in their settlement request.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Remember - they will often not give people any credit for the sums you did pay towards you travel if you set out to evade paying what you owe

In this case they have, which I thought was very fair of them.

ETA: Can't help but notice the number of journeys between West Horndon, Laindon, and Basildon. Don't answer, but have you also been doughnutting by any chance?

 

[WesternLancer]

From my perspective, GTR have been very fair in this matter- they have given you credit for the fares you actually paid. They didn't have to.

Agreed - thanks for pointing this out to me. Have amended my post.

 

[johnny_t]

Hi all,

A couple of months ago in August, I got caught with a 16-17 savers card, and I gave all my details. I just got my letter emailed this morning, and I got fined 1.5k, including the admin fee. I'm a student, and I know that's not an excuse, but I want to appeal it, and they're only giving me 7 days. Any advice would be appreciated, and if you need me to attach proof, that's fine. It was with Thameslink. I don't know how generous they are, etc. Since then, I stopped fare evasion, and I have bought a 16-25 railway card, which I do use. ChatGPT gave me something to email, but I would rather ask professionals. Thanks for your time. Hope to hear from all of you soon. Thanks.

When you say that you can attach proof if required, proof of what ?

What grounds do you want to appeal it on ? Is your contention that you haven't done anything wrong, or is it that you just don't want to pay out that much money ?

 

[z444z]

I got fined 1.5k, including the admin fee. I'm a student, and I know that's not an excuse, but I want to appeal it, and they're only giving me 7 days.

You haven’t been fined, they are offering you a settlement instead of prosecuting you.

You cannot “appeal” it, and they will not care that you’re a student, but if you give them good reasons why some of the journeys shouldn’t be charged for (for example, you did hold the correct railcard for that journey and so didn’t break any rules) then they might agree to remove those from the list. Don’t lie to them though, that could end very very badly for you.

The main question is did you actually hold a 16-17 railcard for any of the period they’re asking about?

As mentioned already, they’re being very fair to you by taking into account fares paid, that isn’t necessarily standard practice. The £250 admin fee is high, but your case is complex and so it doesn’t seem particularly unreasonable. You could ask them for a breakdown of admin costs, as a recent addition to the national rail conditions of travel states that the amount charged will not exceed the actual costs in investigating, but this risks aggravating them and probably isn’t a good idea in this case imo. You could however pay the settlement, closing the matter, and then contact them asking that question and seeking a refund if they’ve overcharged.

If their spreadsheet is correct, then you can either pay it, or let it go to court where the amount you have to pay is likely to be less than this £1600, but you get a criminal conviction. The impact that’d have on your life depends on what your plans for the future are.

 

[doglover12]

Did you have a 16-17 Railcard or not?

Do you agree with the list of journeys that they have provided?

Have you sent any correspondence to them already? If so, what did you say?

From my perspective, GTR have been very fair in this matter- they have given you credit for the fares you actually paid. They didn't have to.

Your choice, therefore, is simple. You could allow GTR to prosecute you. They will only be able to prove fare evasion on the instance that they caught you, unless you have already acknowledged the other instances in writing. On the basis of the instance you were caught, the fine and costs is likely to be less than £1,500. But you will have a criminal conviction.

If you don't want the criminal conviction, you will have to pay up. The only negotiation will be if there are journeys in their list that you didn't take, which may give you some scope for negotiation. But otherwise, as above, GTR have actually been very fair in their settlement request.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==


In this case they have, which I thought was very fair of them.

ETA: Can't help but notice the number of journeys between West Horndon, Laindon, and Basildon. Don't answer, but have you also been doughnutting by any chance?

Hi, no, I didn't have a 16-17 railway card, but I did have a 17-25 one. I did notice on one of the payments they put they accidentally added the 16-25 one, but apart from that, all the journeys were made by me. There's no way to lie about that or dodge that. If you think this is nice of them, is there no way I can say I'm a student? My job barely cuts it, making up to 1k to pay, etc. Being apologetic, etc., won't help me at all. And for some journeys I would get an Uber to certain places, or I would use an Oyster card to get to certain places.

 

[z444z]

Hi, no, I didn't have a 16-17 railway card, but I did have a 17-25 one. I did notice on one of the payments they put they accidentally added the 16-25 one, but apart from that, all the journeys were made by me. There's no way to lie about that or dodge that. If you think this is nice of them, is there no way I can say I'm a student? My job barely cuts it, making up to 1k to pay, etc. Being apologetic, etc., won't help me at all. And for some journeys I would get an Uber to certain places, or I would use an Oyster card to get to certain places, e.g., the Northern Line or the Victoria Line, but sometimes I would doughnut.

No, they do not care that you’re a student, at all. That will not get you out of this. You could ask for a payment plan but you need to be prepared for the answer to be “no”.

 

[John R]

Any payment plan they offer will involve much more admin for them, and as they only have until late Feb to lay papers before the court to prosecute you (which would be their resort if you didnt pay up in full) then it would be for a very limited time.

You really need to beg or borrow from friend or family (not an unauthorised lender) to try and scrape the money together I’m afraid.

 

[doglover12]

No, they do not care that you’re a student, at all. That will not get you out of this. You could ask for a payment plan but you need to be prepared for the answer to be “no”.

why would they refuse a payment plan.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, no, I didn't have a 16-17 railway card, but I did have a 17-25 one. I did notice on one of the payments they put they accidentally added the 16-25 one, but apart from that, all the journeys were made by me. There's no way to lie about that or dodge that. If you think this is nice of them, is there no way I can say I'm a student? My job barely cuts it, making up to 1k to pay, etc. Being apologetic, etc., won't help me at all. And for some journeys I would get an Uber to certain places, or I would use an Oyster card to get to certain places, e.g., the Northern Line or the Victoria Line, but sometimes I would doughnut.

You can tell them you are a student, but that won't get you anywhere - so no, being skint etc is not a justification for what is actually a criminal offence (just like shop lifting wouldn't be an excuse as far as the shop was concerned) - they already provide a Railcard that students of any age can use (which it seems like you already have) which gives a substantial discount on fares already over what may of the rest of us have to pay.

If you have money problems you should separately go and see if you can get help from your university / college hardship fund - which you may have already done of course.

If it goes to court it might cost you less money, and you can pay the court fine in installments if your income is low. But I would personally advise anyone at the start of their working life / career or which this ahead of them eg as a student, to go to significant effort to avoid getting a criminal record unless that is your last resort.

They might accept some sort of payment plan from you so you could ask about that but I suspect it would be a pretty short term one (eg to pay the sum over 3 or 4 installments) but they might not even offer that.

Can you borrow the money from trusted family member.

 

[z444z]

why would they refuse a payment plan.

Because they don’t want the admin work of keeping track of payments, they just want the money they’re owed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hi, no, I didn't have a 16-17 railway card, but I did have a 17-25 one.

As you will have noticed, the 16-17 Saver gives a larger discount, and on more products, than the 16-25 Railcard.

If you think this is nice of them, is there no way I can say I'm a student? My job barely cuts it, making up to 1k to pay, etc.

I genuinely do think this is fair of them. They have given you credit for the fares you did pay. They didn't have to. In many cases, a TOC wouldn't give you that credit.

You may be able to ask for time to pay the settlement, but any time is likely to be short and will likely require a significant portion of the amount to be paid upfront in the first instalment.

why would they refuse a payment plan.

They won't usually allow a payment plan to extend beyond the time limit for prosecution. The obvious reason is that they lose most of their leverage against you once the six months has expired.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Agreed - thanks for pointing this out to me. Have amended my post.

Oh I think your point was very valid. The TOCs don't normally give that credit and so the OP should be grateful that GTR have done so on this occasion.

 

[WesternLancer]

why would they refuse a payment plan.

Because they are not in the debt collection business - they are in the business of running a railway - chasing up non payments of sums people have promised to pay but then don't end up paying all takes time and admin costs for them

They can go with the alternative - which is court - they know the court has a process for collecting unpaid debts - court bailiffs to your address / attachments of earnings orders / deductions from social security benefits at source etc etc. The railway can leave it to them.

I'm afraid they have you over a barrel once they caught you.

 

[SuspectUsual]

why would they refuse a payment plan.

Two basic reasons:

1 - they're a train company not a finance company, and they won't want the aggro of having someone check your payments etc etc

2 - because their other alternative is to prosecute you, and they have a limit of 6 months to do that, so someone welching on a payment plan could leave them no realistic course of action

That said, we have - VERY occasionally - seen examples of train companies offering payment plans, but I don't believe GTR are one of them. You could ask, but expect to be refused.

 

[doglover12]

Alright, thank you all for your input. I will avoid court and pay. I have money saved up, and I guess I have to pay. That’s fine. I will ask for a payment plan; if they decline, I will have to pay in full. I would rather do that than get a criminal record. Could you please help me with a template on what to write and say? Even if it is a 4-month payment plan, I’m ok with doing that. I’m guessing the 6 months ends in February, so I’ll have to pay up by then, but I wish I had heard back from them earlier. Thanks so much, though.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Alright, thank you all for your input. I will avoid court and pay. I have money saved up, and I guess I have to pay. That’s fine. I will ask for a payment plan; if they decline, I will have to pay in full. I would rather do that than get a criminal record. Could you please help me with a template on what to write and say? Even if it is a 4-month payment plan, I’m ok with doing that. I’m guessing the 6 months ends in February, so I’ll have to pay up by then, but I wish I had heard back from them earlier. Thanks so much, though.

Obviously the way you ask will make a difference to the response, albeit perhaps only from 0.1% to 1% likely. But something like "I can pay £x immediately and the remainder in 3 monthly instalments" (where £x is a big chunk of it) looks better than "I'm a student, I'm skint, I can't afford it, can I have a payment plan please"

 

[WesternLancer]

Obviously the way you ask will make a difference to the response, albeit perhaps only from 0.1% to 1% likely. But something like "I can pay £x immediately and the remainder in 3 monthly instalments" (where £x is a big chunk of it) looks better than "I'm a student, I'm skint, I can't afford it, can I have a payment plan please"

good advice here

@doglover12

draft up your letter requesting they payment plan and post it here for checking before - you send it - you will probably need to send it hard copy tracked postage and if you don't hear in the 14 days for payment then I'm afraid you will probably need to pay or they will very likely automatically escalate to court (persecution process is a sausage machine for them - they will be dealing with hundreds of such cases a week) - but if they indicate you can e-mail them then you can try that too.

but format would be something like

Dear....

Your Ref:

Thanks you for your letter of ..... and list of fares outlining where you believe I have not paid the correct fare.

I apologise sincerely for what happened and wish to pay for the fares owed. I have learned a significant lesson from this and my actions were a serious error of judgment on my part.

However, I am on a low income as a student and paying the sum requested in one go will be difficult for me. I am writing to ask if you would be prepared to allow me to pay in installments. If this is possible I can pay £x immediately and the remainder in 3 monthly instalments (or insert whatever you wish to propose) were that to be agreeable.

I would be grateful if you could let me know promptly if payment by instalments is an option, as I do not want to miss the 14 day deadline your letter sets out.

I can be contacted at xxx postal address or by e-mail at xxxxx

Yours sincerely

xxxxxx

 

[Olivine]

Is there any evidence from the TOC that OP has actually fare evaded except the once where they were MG11’d?

Purchasing tickets with the railcard is not fraudulent, it’s the act of using them that is as I can’t see clear evidence this has been linked.

Unless they can provide evidence that OP had used them (such as OP admitting this in his MG11) then it’s unclear what evidence they are basing it on.

 

[MrJeeves]

I did notice on one of the payments they put they accidentally added the 16-25 one, but apart from that, all the journeys were made by me.

As in you bought a "proper" ticket valid for your journey with a 16-25 Railcard which you have, and they have included it on the spreadsheet? If so, tell them that and attach evidence of your Railcard valid for that journey and they should remove it.

Include this in your reply along with what @WesternLancer has suggested above in post 21.

Is there any evidence from the TOC that OP has actually fare evaded except the once where they were MG11’d?

Purchasing tickets with the railcard is not fraudulent, it’s the act of using them that is as I can’t see clear evidence this has been linked.

Unless they can provide evidence that OP had used them (such as OP admitting this in his MG11) then it’s unclear what evidence they are basing it on.

While they might not be able to prove OP used the tickets to travel and likely could not prosecute against these instances, they could easily prosecute against the instance where the OP was MG11'd.

If OP is hard for cash, it is likely that allowing GTR to procede with a prosecution for that instance, and pleading guilty, would result in a lower outlay of costs at the expense of a criminal record (the conviction will be spent after 1 year) which could affect their future in some regulated industries.

It would also provide them with more time to gather the funds for a court-imposed fine.

 

[doglover12]

wait so does this mean there is no evidence?

Is there any evidence from the TOC that OP has actually fare evaded except the once where they were MG11’d?

Purchasing tickets with the railcard is not fraudulent, it’s the act of using them that is as I can’t see clear evidence this has been linked.

Unless they can provide evidence that OP had used them (such as OP admitting this in his MG11) then it’s unclear what evidence they are basing it on.

 

[John R]

Is there any evidence from the TOC that OP has actually fare evaded except the once where they were MG11’d?

Purchasing tickets with the railcard is not fraudulent, it’s the act of using them that is as I can’t see clear evidence this has been linked.

Unless they can provide evidence that OP had used them (such as OP admitting this in his MG11) then it’s unclear what evidence they are basing it on.

They don’t need evidence. The OP either pays up or they are prosecuted for the one offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

wait so does this mean there is no evidence?

There is evidence for the one occasion on which prosecution would be based.

 

[WesternLancer]

wait so does this mean there is no evidence?

presumably when you were caught they have evidence of that occasion - and you may even have admitted it when questioned (unless you said 'no comment' to everything you were asked apart from your name and address?) - that is all they need to secure a guilty verdict in court.

The court fine for that one offence (Band A fine IIRC) plus costs plus victim surcharge plus fare evaded for that occasion could go quite a way to the sum they are asking you for now (and it comes with the criminal record)

 

[MrJeeves]

The court fine for that one offence (Band A fine IIRC) plus costs plus victim surcharge plus fare evaded for that occasion could go quite a way to the sum they are asking you for now (and it comes with the criminal record)

Provided OP hasn't been aggressive or abusive to staff when they were caught, I'd imagine it would be Band A or Band B fine based on the sentencing guidelines.

I believe it is possible that the magistrate will take into account the other occurrences when sentencing even if they are not prosecuted against directly, but don't quote me on this as there may be other factors that affect whether this is possible.

For the OP's benefit, the details for Band A/B fines are below. A guilty plea at the first opportunity would reduce the fine by 1/3 in most cases.

	Starting point	Range
Fine Band A	50% of relevant weekly income	25 – 75% of relevant weekly income
Fine Band B	100% of relevant weekly income	75 – 125% of relevant weekly income

On top of this, there would be costs for the railway, and a victim surcharge.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Then the advice insofar except MrJeeves post is ‘well just pay up’ is incredibly unhelpful as a reply and moot.

OP has many more options such as claiming confusion, forgot to buy etc (or whatever they deem necessary as mitigating) against the one, clear case they’ve been MG11’d for.

With respect, whilst I can see you are attempting to be well meaning this post is extremely unhelpful, to put it politely.

It (assuming ticket retailing facilities were available at the origin) does not matter why someone has boarded a train without a valid ticket. The "mitigation", as you put it, is irrelevant, except perhaps when it comes to sentencing at the Magistrates' Court. "I accidentally selected the wrong railcard (50 times)" is not a defence.

wait so does this mean there is no evidence?

I refer you to my previous post:

Your choice, therefore, is simple. You could allow GTR to prosecute you. They will only be able to prove fare evasion on the instance that they caught you, unless you have already acknowledged the other instances in writing. On the basis of the instance you were caught, the fine and costs is likely to be less than £1,500. But you will have a criminal conviction.

If you don't want the criminal conviction, you will have to pay up. The only negotiation will be if there are journeys in their list that you didn't take, which may give you some scope for negotiation. But otherwise, as above, GTR have actually been very fair in their settlement request.

They can prove the offence on the occasion you were stopped. You were caught red-handed.

On the other occasions, it depends what you said to them in your previous correspondence (if there was any). That is why I asked you if there had been previous correspondence from you and, if so, what you said.

They probably can't prove fare evasion on the other occasions, but they don't have to. They are giving you an opportunity to settle the matter out of Court and, in doing so, they want these occasions to be taken into account.

If you don't agree with the settlement on that basis, you can allow them to prosecute you for the one incident which they can prove. The Court fine (plus costs, plus victim surcharge) is likely to be less than £1,500, especially if your income is low and you tell the Court about your income. But you will have a criminal conviction to your name. This is a minor conviction and would usually disappear from your record after a year, but it will have to be declared in certain professions (e.g. finance, banking, law, medicine) and may also have an impact if you are a foreign student wishing to remain in the UK.

So it's your choice really. There isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. Pay the settlement or face prosecution.

 

[WesternLancer]

Provided OP hasn't been aggressive or abusive to staff when they were caught, I'd imagine it would be Band A or Band B fine based on the sentencing guidelines.

I believe it is possible that the magistrate will take into account the other occurrences when sentencing even if they are not prosecuted against directly, but don't quote me on this as there may be other factors that affect whether this is possible.

For the OP's benefit, the details for Band A/B fines are below. A guilty plea at the first opportunity would reduce the fine by 1/3 in most cases.

	Starting point	Range
Fine Band A	50% of relevant weekly income	25 – 75% of relevant weekly income
Fine Band B	100% of relevant weekly income	75 – 125% of relevant weekly income

On top of this, there would be costs for the railway, and a victim surcharge.

Thanks for this - was hoping someone would post it! - IIRC there is a 'notional' weekly income for students whose income might be made up of a mix of student loans and part time work etc which would allow the OP to calculate the financial consequences of a court guilty verdict.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Thanks for this - was hoping someone would post it! - IIRC there is a 'notional' weekly income for students whose income might be made up of a mix of student loans and part time work etc which would allow the OP to calculate the financial consequences of a court guilty verdict.

3. Definition of relevant weekly income

sentencingcouncil.org.uk

Here's the relevant bit from the Sentencing Council website.

Basically (and I paraphrase):

- working and income after tax >£120pw - actual average used

- working and income after tax <£120pw or on benefits - £120pw used

- no information provided - assume £440pw