Fined 1,5K.

[doglover12]

I'm confused here.

Did you have a 16-25 railcard when you travelled for all these trips or not? If not, why are you asking them to take it into account?

I do, have one the whole time I made the journey i’ve had one for about a year coming to two years so all my journeys therefore cover it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

I think OP may be misunderstanding what "take a 16-25 railcard into account" means. The only thing I think we have seen them do in response to seeing a 16-25 railcard is to remove any correctly paid fares from consideration. AFAICT from the spreadsheet posted there were no such fares included anyway. There is one 16-25 discounted ticket but it likely did not cover the whole journey made. This is already more generous than is often seen on here: I would just pay the settlement if at all possible and forget about trying to get it reduced.

I don’t know but someone previously did say that since I was charged the full adult fare I could ask if I could be charged fare that involved my 16-25 railway card as I did have one during the journeys I didn’t use.

 

[LYradial]

Just a gentle reminder that some train companies read this forum and can be one step ahead of you.

 

[AlterEgo]

I do, have one the whole time I made the journey i’ve had one for about a year coming to two years so all my journeys therefore cover it.

And do you have proof of the railcard? I only ask because you imply you only bought one after getting caught in the opening post.

Since then, I stopped fare evasion, and I have bought a 16-25 railway card, which I do use.

 

[z444z]

I am not a lawyer and do not even know if “without prejudice” can apply to negotiations before a criminal prosecution as opposed to a civil claim. I also know that it cannot apply to an effort to reduce the amount owed unless the facts of the matter are in dispute, but I would think the fact that you held a 16-25 railcard could be considered a relevant fact to add and I don’t think it could hurt to mark the letter as without prejudice.

Regardless, there’s no harm in admitting to and apologising for things that you already admitted to during the witness statement, but there may be harm in admitting to more.

OP, could you carefully, ensuring everything is entirely TRUE, read my draft below and make the necessary edits (though don’t insert the reference number here, don’t post that online!? Honestly I wouldn’t even bother making the edits or posting it here until others, particularly those with more experience in these matters, have left their thoughts on my draft because it’s entirely possible everything I’ve said is wrong and should be disregarded, but it’s up to you, just certainly don’t send anything to GTR without far more advice.

REFERENCE: [INSERT REFERENCE]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

To whom it may concern,

I am writing in response to your letter dated [INSERT DATE]. Firstly, I would like to thank you for offering a settlement as an alternative to prosecution, this is greatly appreciated.

[Apologise for what you did as best as you can, and we can suggest some edits to it after, I don’t want to write it all for you as it will be best if the words come from you]

I have reviewed the document you sent, and just wanted to ask if there was any possibility that the calculation of fares due could take into account that I did hold a valid 16-25 railcard (evidence attached) from [RAILCARD START DATE] to [RAILCARD END DATE].

Additionally, while I understand the amount of work likely to be involved in an investigation like this, which again I sincerely apologise for making necessary, I am wondering if a breakdown of your admin costs is available, in line with the recent addition to NRCoT 9.3: “The Train Company shall be entitled to recover its costs of this follow up (including claim or prosecution costs) from you whenever such costs are incurred. The sum claimed will not exceed the actual costs of such follow up steps taken.”

I do not wish for any of this to be construed as a refusal of the settlement offer, I am simply seeking more information before making a final decision. I hope that we can work together to resolve this matter amicably.

[SIGN OFF]

 

[doglover12]

And do you have proof of the railcard? I only ask because you imply you only bought one after getting caught in the opening post.

yes I had one from the point where they charged me for 16-25 I think I bought it a day before and I have proof I have even renewed it and carried on using it especially after that situation.

 

[z444z]

yes I had one from the point where they charged me for 16-25 I think I bought it a day before and I have proof I have even renewed it and carried on using it especially after that situation.

Ok this needs clarifying. Did you or did you not hold a valid 16-25 railcard for all of the dates on their spreadsheet? This is really important if you want to t try to get the cost down at all.

 

[doglover12]

Ok this needs clarifying. Did you or did you not hold a valid 16-25 railcard for all of the dates on their spreadsheet? This is really important if you want to t try to get the cost down at all.

I had a valid 16-25 railway card which expired 30 Nov 2025, so around the times of all the dates, I had a valid 16-25 railway card which was not expired, but I used it from time to time on some journeys.

 

[z444z]

I had a valid 16-25 railway card which expired 30 Nov 2025, so around the times of all the dates, I had a valid 16-25 railway card which was not expired, but I used it from time to time on some journeys.

So between the first date listed on the spreadsheet and the last, your 16-25 railcard was valid, yes?

 

[Olivine]

This is now very confusing.

Are you saying you had a 16-25 railcard but you instead applied another for a higher discount?

Or just used the wrong one?

 

[z444z]

This is now very confusing.

Are you saying you had a 16-25 railcard but you instead applied another for a higher discount?

Or just used the wrong one?

It isn’t in dispute that the OP incorrectly applied a 16-17 discount. What I’m trying to work out is whether they actually held a 16-25 the whole time, because if so it may be worth asking GTR if they could take that railcard into account when calculating the fares due.

 

[doglover12]

So between the first date listed on the spreadsheet and the last, your 16-25 railcard was valid, yes?

Yes, completely valid. I just checked it expired on the 28/11/2025, and it lasts about a year, so it was from 28/11/2024, and the first journey was on the 29/11/2025 on the spreadsheet, so I’ve had a valid 16-25 railway card for a year, and have proof.

 

[z444z]

Yes, completely valid. I just checked it expired on the 28/11/2025, and it lasts about a year, so it was from 28/11/2024, and the first journey was on the 29/11/2025 on the spreadsheet, so I’ve had a valid 16-25 railway card for a year, and have proof.

Ok great - have a look at my draft above then!

 

[doglover12]

Just a gentle reminder that some train companies read this forum and can be one step

alright thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Ok great - have a look at my draft above then!

I am not a lawyer and do not even know if “without prejudice” can apply to negotiations before a criminal prosecution as opposed to a civil claim. I also know that it cannot apply to an effort to reduce the amount owed unless the facts of the matter are in dispute, but I would think the fact that you held a 16-25 railcard could be considered a relevant fact to add and I don’t think it could hurt to mark the letter as without prejudice.

Regardless, there’s no harm in admitting to and apologising for things that you already admitted to during the witness statement, but there may be harm in admitting to more.

OP, could you carefully, ensuring everything is entirely TRUE, read my draft below and make the necessary edits (though don’t insert the reference number here, don’t post that online!? Honestly I wouldn’t even bother making the edits or posting it here until others, particularly those with more experience in these matters, have left their thoughts on my draft because it’s entirely possible everything I’ve said is wrong and should be disregarded, but it’s up to you, just certainly don’t send anything to GTR without far more advice.

alright thank you, the terminology you used at the bottom I don’t know if this is correct but it sounds all right should I hold on before I send it to get more input?

 

[z444z]

alright thank you, the terminology you used at the bottom I don’t know if this is correct but it sounds all right should I hold on before I send it to get more input?

Yes, do not send anything yet, I am not confident enough in what I’ve written for you to send it without input from members with more experience. Also note that my draft is far from complete, there various places I’ve put [] to mark things that you need to fill in, including an entire paragraph.

 

[doglover12]

Yes, do not send anything yet, I am not confident enough in what I’ve written for you to send it without input from members with more experience. Also note that my draft is far from complete, there various places I’ve put [] to mark things that you need to fill in, including an entire paragraph.

alright thanks I hope more people help.

 

[z444z]

alright thanks I hope more people help.

I’m sure they will!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Ah just realised there was discussion of a payment plan. @doglover12 in my honest opinion, the letter I’ve drafted is already asking quite a lot of GTR, so I’d be hesitant to add in a request for a payment plan. How big a deal is that to you - if they say no, the original amount is our final offer, could you afford to pay it straight away?

 

[spotify95]

Here is the screenshot of all my journeys.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==


so should I possibly not email them about applying my 16-25 railway card yet ,and about them possibly over charging me?

Looks like GTR are being reasonable here. They're using off peak returns, anytime returns, and season tickets in their calculations (as per the right hand side of the table). A few TOCs have insisted on using Anytime Day Single rates even when debating the amount actually owed with the TOC.

Pretty sure GTR are also taking into account what you did pay, if I've been reading the thread correctly.

Assuming there aren't any journeys that have been mistakenly flagged, if I didn't want a criminal record, I'd pay the settlement figure (even if I had to borrow the money). If there are some legitimate journeys on the list, then contact GTR to see if they can be removed.

Also (although only TFL seem to do this) there is the possibility that, if this went to court, you could be charged for one offense but have additional offences "taken into consideration", which wouldn't actually reduce the compensation figure that GTR would apply for. (However if they prosecute for one offence only, via SJPN, then the fine/surcharge/costs/compensation for the day stopped would probably work out cheaper than the settlement. With the caveat that a criminal record brings.)

 

[WesternLancer]

I think OP may be misunderstanding what "take a 16-25 railcard into account" means. The only thing I think we have seen them do in response to seeing a 16-25 railcard is to remove any correctly paid fares from consideration. AFAICT from the spreadsheet posted there were no such fares included anyway. There is one 16-25 discounted ticket but it likely did not cover the whole journey made. This is already more generous than is often seen on here: I would just pay the settlement if at all possible and forget about trying to get it reduced.

I think it relates to the point made in post #43 by @furlong

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Are you saying you had a 16-25 railcard but you instead applied another for a higher discount?

This was my understanding

 

[Olivine]

I think it relates to the point made in post #43 by @furlong

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==


This was my understanding

Then it does change the value of the claim quite considerably at 16.7% discount rather than 50% - I think it’s probably worth the ask, or even just to present the valid railcard and volunteer no further information.

Without prejudice

To whom it may concern

Please find enclosed the railcard used at the time

KR

 

[doglover12]

Then it does change the value of the claim quite considerably at 16.7% discount rather than 50% - I think it’s probably worth the ask, or even just to present the valid railcard and volunteer no further information.

Without prejudice

To whom it may concern

Please find enclosed the railcard used at the time

KR

so you think I should still try and ask?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Looks like GTR are being reasonable here. They're using off peak returns, anytime returns, and season tickets in their calculations (as per the right hand side of the table). A few TOCs have insisted on using Anytime Day Single rates even when debating the amount actually owed with the TOC.

Pretty sure GTR are also taking into account what you did pay, if I've been reading the thread correctly.

Assuming there aren't any journeys that have been mistakenly flagged, if I didn't want a criminal record, I'd pay the settlement figure (even if I had to borrow the money). If there are some legitimate journeys on the list, then contact GTR to see if they can be removed.

Also (although only TFL seem to do this) there is the possibility that, if this went to court, you could be charged for one offense but have additional offences "taken into consideration", which wouldn't actually reduce the compensation figure that GTR would apply for. (However if they prosecute for one offence only, via SJPN, then the fine/surcharge/costs/compensation for the day stopped would probably work out cheaper than the settlement. With the caveat that a criminal record brings.)

I don’t plan to go to court and I would rather settle ,

I’m sure they will!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Ah just realised there was discussion of a payment plan. @doglover12 in my honest opinion, the letter I’ve drafted is already asking quite a lot of GTR, so I’d be hesitant to add in a request for a payment plan. How big a deal is that to you - if they say no, the original amount is our final offer, could you afford to pay it straight away?

Hmmm, I’ve already emailed them asking for a payment plan. Do you think it’s too much to ask for a payment plan as well as a reduction in price or to take one? I wouldn’t mind paying straight away, especially if there’s a big decrease.

 

[WesternLancer]

Then it does change the value of the claim quite considerably at 16.7% discount rather than 50% - I think it’s probably worth the ask, or even just to present the valid railcard and volunteer no further information.

Without prejudice

To whom it may concern

Please find enclosed the railcard used at the time

KR

maybe - but this is where the OP could be pushing it - they bought and knew they held a 16-25 Railcard giving 34% discount - yet they knew they could apply a 16-17 Railcard discount (to which they were not entitled to hold) to get a 50% discount - so their ticket was not valid by virtue of having the wrong Railcard discount applied, and to boot that was deliberate.

If I worked at GTR why would I then let them pay the difference when they finally got caught - they missed their chance to pay the correct fare at the time, and missed that chance by deliberate action AIUI.

The OP has to decide if they want to ask this at the end of the day of course.

 

[z444z]

Then it does change the value of the claim quite considerably at 16.7% discount rather than 50% - I think it’s probably worth the ask, or even just to present the valid railcard and volunteer no further information.

Without prejudice

To whom it may concern

Please find enclosed the railcard used at the time

KR

There would be no need for without prejudice with a letter like this but imo a letter like this would either lead to GTR replying saying “okay? are you paying or not?” or worse assuming that’s your final response and just prosecuting you.

 

[Olivine]

maybe - but this is where the OP could be pushing it - they bought and knew they held a 16-25 Railcard giving 34% discount - yet they knew they could apply a 16-17 Railcard discount (to which they were not entitled to hold) to get a 50% discount - so their ticket was not valid by virtue of having the wrong Railcard discount applied, and to boot that was deliberate.

Absolutely and at such a minor discount it’s questionable why, but OPs direction has been to broadly want to reduce the payment but still pay what is due.

 

[z444z]

Hmmm, I’ve already emailed them asking for a payment plan. Do you think it’s too much to ask for a payment plan as well as a reduction in price or to take one? I wouldn’t mind paying straight away, especially if there’s a big decrease.

Ah. That changes things, I don’t think you had told us previously that you’d already asked for a payment plan? It’s really hard to advise if we don’t know everything that’s going on.

 

[doglover12]

Ah. That changes things, I don’t think you had told us previously that you’d already asked for a payment plan? It’s really hard to advise if we don’t know everything that’s going on.

yess I asked for it as soon as possible they haven’t gotten back to me yet I only asked cause I noticed it may not even be guaranteed.

 

[island]

Provided OP hasn't been aggressive or abusive to staff when they were caught, I'd imagine it would be Band A or Band B fine based on the sentencing guidelines.

I believe it is possible that the magistrate will take into account the other occurrences when sentencing even if they are not prosecuted against directly, but don't quote me on this as there may be other factors that affect whether this is possible.

For the OP's benefit, the details for Band A/B fines are below. A guilty plea at the first opportunity would reduce the fine by 1/3 in most cases.

	Starting point	Range
Fine Band A	50% of relevant weekly income	25 – 75% of relevant weekly income
Fine Band B	100% of relevant weekly income	75 – 125% of relevant weekly income

On top of this, there would be costs for the railway, and a victim surcharge.

Yes. A byelaw prosecution will normally go to band A and a RoRA to band B. The surcharge is 40% of the fine.

Thanks for this - was hoping someone would post it! - IIRC there is a 'notional' weekly income for students whose income might be made up of a mix of student loans and part time work etc which would allow the OP to calculate the financial consequences of a court guilty verdict.

Indeed, it's £120pw.

I’m sure they will!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Ah just realised there was discussion of a payment plan. @doglover12 in my honest opinion, the letter I’ve drafted is already asking quite a lot of GTR, so I’d be hesitant to add in a request for a payment plan. How big a deal is that to you - if they say no, the original amount is our final offer, could you afford to pay it straight away?

Just to note that there is little to no chance of a payment plan being agreed due to the prosecution deadline being next month.

 

[doglover12]

Yes. A byelaw prosecution will normally go to band A and a RoRA to band B. The surcharge is 40% of the fine.

Indeed, it's £120pw.

Just to note that there is little to no chance of a payment plan being agreed due to the prosecution deadline being next month.

so they purposely left it till before next month meaning I basically have to pay in full, hmmmm what do you think about my asking for the reduced price.

 

[6Gman]

so they purposely left it till before next month meaning I basically have to pay in full, hmmmm what do you think about my asking for the reduced price.

You may be overthinking this.

It seems likelier that they were working through a pile of cases and this is when they got to yours.

 

[SuspectUsual]

so they purposely left it till before next month meaning I basically have to pay in full, hmmmm what do you think about my asking for the reduced price.

That’s probably a bit conspiracy theorist. Most likely they are understaffed and miles behind where they’d like to be

 

[z444z]

so they purposely left it till before next month meaning I basically have to pay in full

There’s no evidence to support this conclusion.