"Fill-in" electrification ideas.

[Energy]

Coventry-Reading - would allow the XC Manchester to Bournemouth service - surely one of the worst offenders for running diesels on electrified lines - to go electric, assuming suitable dual-voltage EMUs could be procured

BR had a proposal to electrify the Cherwell Valley Line (Didcot to Banbury), a section of the Chiltern mainline from Banbury to Birmingham and the Leamington to Coventry line, this would have electrified Coventry as far as Didcot, then it is just the small bit at Basingstoke. Unfortunately the Conservative government (I don't want to bring in politics but it is relevant as this was around the time of starting privatisation) at the time did not go ahead with the proposal.
It is on p17 (19 on the pdf) of this. Here is an image:

There is also quite a lot of other routes which would have been nice but never happened. On cost there is a table on p12 which shows what BR predicted it would cost, although they say the main issue was the disruption to passengers.

Nuneaton - Coventry

Planned under the now gone Electric Spine project.

so you would have to split the service again.

Already split on Sundays, you should just electrify all the way from Leamington to Nuneaton though.

 

[The Planner]

That was situation C though, and we haven't even managed B yet. As for Cov to Nuneaton, it still falls over if Cov to Leicester ever sees the light of day as one of the Nuneaton services would likely be diverted.

 

[Bald Rick]

And remember - that proposal was little more than lines in a paper / lines on a map.

 

[Energy]

That was situation C though, and we haven't even managed B yet.

Indeed, the slow electrification pace in this country is a shame and C is going to be low priority at the moment.

And remember - that proposal was little mor than lines 8n a paper / lines on a map.

Yeah, it does show that BR had it fairly high up on its wishlist though, the routes mentioned on that are mainly intercity routes which BR put high up because they are profitable and the 'flagship' bits of BR. I would imagine it would be further looked into if they decided to go ahead, this was just a list of routes BR thought should be electrified.

 

[crablab]

Second Ely - Peterborough, but also Ely - Norwich.

 

[Dr Hoo]

BR had a proposal to electrify the Cherwell Valley Line (Didcot to Banbury), a section of the Chiltern mainline from Banbury to Birmingham and the Leamington to Coventry line, this would have electrified Coventry as far as Didcot, then it is just the small bit at Basingstoke. Unfortunately the Conservative government (I don't want to bring in politics but it is relevant as this was around the time of starting privatisation) at the time did not go ahead with the proposal.

The document linked seems to date from 1978 under a Labour government and many years before privatisation became a serious thing. It was written around an 'oil crisis' and hence increase in diesel traction costs. Ironically it was the same Labour government (succeeding the short Heath administration from 1970-74) that missed the chance to have a follow-on programme after completion of the core WCML during that era.

 

[markymark2000]

Chester to Crewe is a small fill in section. It would then mean that with the exception of the infrequent (few trains per day) NWC, Wrexham and Shrewsbury services, all passenger trains on the WCML south of Coventry & Stafford would be electric. It would also mean the Chester to Crewe shuttle could be electric (possibly in the form of extending the Crewe to London WMT service).

If that got done, the next fill in project would be Chester to Runcorn (via Halton Curve) and to Bank Quay so then the Chester - Liverpool via Runcorn service could be electrified (if it didn't extend) and Manchester to NWC services could instead by bimode.


Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge would then electrify this shuttle service and with a possible service change, (terminate Southport runs at MCV and extend the Preston - MCV electric through).

If Network Rail do change the Tyne and Wear metro to be 25kv AC (the metros new trains are coming prepared for 25kv AC so they can expand the system and given 25kv AC is the normal for Network Rail, it may be worth them changing it so the line can facilitate electrified national rail services), there is then an infill from Heworth to Newcastle and I think I would then extend that to Metrocentre to open up Sunderland to Metrocentre services as well as Chathill/Morpeth to Metrocentre/Sunderland services (the ECML of course is already electrified)

 

[py_megapixel]

Chester to Crewe is a small fill in section. It would then mean that with the exception of the infrequent (few trains per day) NWC, Wrexham and Shrewsbury services, all passenger trains on the WCML south of Coventry & Stafford would be electric. It would also mean the Chester to Crewe shuttle could be electric (possibly in the form of extending the Crewe to London WMT service).

That's an interesting prospect, though it seems the case for it is far less clear now that Avanti have a fleet of bi-modes on order.

As for the Crewe to Chester shuttle, what I'd probably do of that line was electrified is keep it simple and just have Northern shuttle a 323 back and forth - they'll have plenty of them once the WM units turn up!

Given that service is primarily used by connecting passengers, it's rather important that it runs to time or thereabouts, and tacking what used to be a short stopping service onto a longer one is rarely a good thing for reliability - see, well, quite a bit of what happened in May 2018 really!

Hopefully at some point the Mid Cheshire line will be electrified as well. If Chester was to be electrified, then given that Manchester to Stockport is already, it would probably make sense as another fill-in, though with 1tph off-peak it's probably not a priority.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland/Westerton via Maryhill. Wires at both ends yet this remarkably tiny stretch of route isnt..

 

[Richard Scott]

Ironically it was the same Labour government (succeeding the short Heath administration from 1970-74) that missed the chance to have a follow-on programme after completion of the core WCML during that era.

I expect that was due to dire financial situation in the country at the time?

 

[Jack Hay]

Manchester - Liverpool via Warrington - although I'm not sure if that would fit in as being "little".

It's 27 miles of double track to wire, from (just west of) Hunts Cross West Junction to Trafford Park West Junction plus a couple of crossovers and the stabling sidings at Warrington. Not as small as the Windermere branch, say, but an easy job nevertheless because both ends are already done, so it's almost entirely plain line, and there are no tunnels.

 

[Ianno87]

It's 27 miles of double track to wire, from (just west of) Hunts Cross West Junction to Trafford Park West Junction plus a couple of crossovers and the stabling sidings at Warrington. Not as small as the Windermere branch, say, but an easy job nevertheless because both ends are already done, so it's almost entirely plain line, and there are no tunnels.

Are there still semaphores at Glazebrook Jn?

 

[tbtc]

Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland/Westerton via Maryhill. Wires at both ends yet this remarkably tiny stretch of route isnt..

This is a perfect "fill in" project, rather than some of the more grandiose suggestions being floated on here (e.g. Peterborough to Norwich must be best part of seventy five miles - your suggestion is short, wired at both ends, would directly free up a half hourly DMU operated service, would permit new services too.

I could understand the Anniesland service being DMU operated in the days when most other ScotRail trains in Queen Street High Level were 156/158/170 operated (so an Anniesland turn could be tacked onto an arrival from Stirling/ Cumbernauld/ Edinburgh etc to switch units and balance out driver hours etc) but now that the other Central Belt ones are EMUs and most of the long distance ones are HSTs, having a stand alone shuttle becomes more of a "diesel island".

Some of the suggestions on here are in the "nice to have, could be useful a couple of weekends a year if we maintained route knowledge to permit diversions, would only be worth having if we could persuade freight companies to add a small number of electric locomotives to their otherwise interchangeable go-anywhere fleet of 66s" category but Anniesland seems a great suggestion.

 

[Scotrail314209]

This is a perfect "fill in" project, rather than some of the more grandiose suggestions being floated on here (e.g. Peterborough to Norwich must be best part of seventy five miles - your suggestion is short, wired at both ends, would directly free up a half hourly DMU operated service, would permit new services too.

I could understand the Anniesland service being DMU operated in the days when most other ScotRail trains in Queen Street High Level were 156/158/170 operated (so an Anniesland turn could be tacked onto an arrival from Stirling/ Cumbernauld/ Edinburgh etc to switch units and balance out driver hours etc) but now that the other Central Belt ones are EMUs and most of the long distance ones are HSTs, having a stand alone shuttle becomes more of a "diesel island".

Some of the suggestions on here are in the "nice to have, could be useful a couple of weekends a year if we maintained route knowledge to permit diversions, would only be worth having if we could persuade freight companies to add a small number of electric locomotives to their otherwise interchangeable go-anywhere fleet of 66s" category but Anniesland seems a great suggestion.

Exactly! Right now the Anniesland services are booked as part of the West Highland Diagrams, but it seems a bit silly to have DMUs running that short stretch. There might be an issue with the Forth and Clyde canal at Possilpark, but a new bridge would suffice. I don’t know why Network Rail didn’t get it done as part of the EGIP scheme. Another added benefit is that if there were issues or engineering work at Queen Street High Level, you could divert 385s down to the Low Level.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There’s your answer!

And buying a new fleet of dual voltage trains of course, and a D.C. power upgrade south of Basingstoke. And after all that, you’ve only electrified half the cross country service on the corridor (in normal times).

Don't ruin things with factual content.

There's far too many users here who think we were going to re-electrify Basingstoke to Southampton at 25kV just for fun. The reality was the electrical demands that would have been placed on the existing 750V DC electrification by running freight and passenger services on electric was too great and really starts to approach the limit realistically of what you can do without spending catastrophically ruinous amounts of money on strengthening third rail supplies.

It's 27 miles of double track to wire, from (just west of) Hunts Cross West Junction to Trafford Park West Junction plus a couple of crossovers and the stabling sidings at Warrington. Not as small as the Windermere branch, say, but an easy job nevertheless because both ends are already done, so it's almost entirely plain line, and there are no tunnels.

"Easy" other than potentially problematic ground conditions which make it impossible to get a mast to stay upright for more than 5 minutes when using conventional techniques. The joy of working in the cradle of the industrial revolution with its disused mine workings and disturbed geology...

 

[Bald Rick]

Chester to Crewe is a small fill in section. It would then mean that with the exception of the infrequent (few trains per day) NWC, Wrexham and Shrewsbury services, all passenger trains on the WCML south of Coventry & Stafford would be electric. It would also mean the Chester to Crewe shuttle could be electric (possibly in the form of extending the Crewe to London WMT service).

Everything south of Coventry and Stafford will be electric within a couple of years time.

 

[daodao]

Don't ruin things with factual content.
............
"Easy" other than potentially problematic ground conditions which make it impossible to get a mast to stay upright for more than 5 minutes when using conventional techniques. The joy of working in the cradle of the industrial revolution with its disused mine workings and disturbed geology...

The Chat Moss line runs across the former South Lancashire coalfield and the bog that is Chat Moss.
The ex-CLC line is further south essentially beyond the edge of this coalfield and only a small section between Glazebrook and Birchwood runs across a "moss" (at Risley/Rixton).

 

[Jack Hay]

Are there still semaphores at Glazebrook Jn?

Sorry, no. There are a couple left on the other CLC route (aka the Mid Cheshire Line) at Plumley West (not visible from Plumley station, however).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

"Easy" other than potentially problematic ground conditions which make it impossible to get a mast to stay upright for more than 5 minutes when using conventional techniques. The joy of working in the cradle of the industrial revolution with its disused mine workings and disturbed geology...

The Chat Moss line runs across the former South Lancashire coalfield and the bog that is Chat Moss.
The ex-CLC line is further south essentially beyond the edge of this coalfield and only a small section between Glazebrook and Birchwood runs across a "moss" (at Risley/Rixton).

I still think you will not be able to rely on straight piling. You will need a number of huge gravity pads I would suspect and some of those humongous concrete bases used over Chat Moss. All doable of course but not easy peasy

 

[DJ_K666]

Hastings to Ashford
Reigate to Guidford
Basingstoke to Reading
Hurst Green to Uckfield
Southampton Central to Salisbury
Eastleigh to Romsey

All good ideas to electrify, although to some the last two might constitute Crayonism. The next debate is whether to go OHLE or Third Rail. With Brexit completion coming up (a different argument of course) perhaps the 'ban' on new Third Rail can be safely filed under B for Bin

 

[Iskra]

Carnforth-Skipton. Easiest Transpennine route to electrify and it's half done already...

Serious suggestions;

Leeds-York
Moorthope-Sheffield (full MML eventually)

 

[martin2345uk]

Thames Haven branch to London Gateway. 3 miles of electrification and we could run electric freight all the way to Scotland.

 

[xotGD]

Carnforth-Skipton. Easiest Transpennine route to electrify and it's half done already..

Might as well do the S&C while you are at it!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Thames Haven branch to London Gateway. 3 miles of electrification and we could run electric freight all the way to Scotland.

Yes - huge win. It was top of the list in the Julian Worth article and presentation in terms of diesel to electric conversion per mile of route sparked up. Not sure of what the cost per mile would be though - north of 2 million quid per mile easily I would have thought.

 

[Jack Hay]

I still think you will not be able to rely on straight piling. You will need a number of huge gravity pads I would suspect and some of those humongous concrete bases used over Chat Moss. All doable of course but not easy peasy

I think daodao is right about this. The CLC route is south of the coalfield and the mossland is largely drained in this area now. Risley has been considerably developed into the Birchwood business parks. Even Birchwood station is built on former mossland. I don't think CLC line masts would have the problems you suggest.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think daodao is right about this. The CLC route is south of the coalfield and the mossland is largely drained in this area now. Risley has been considerably developed into the Birchwood business parks. Even Birchwood station is built on former mossland. I don't think CLC line masts would have the problems you suggest.

I hope you are right I really do. Then again, I didn’t think Preston to Manchester would be as eye wateringly expensive as it was. I assume the area is well north of the old salt mines?

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes - huge win. It was top of the list in the Julian Worth article and presentation in terms of diesel to electric conversion per mile of route sparked up. Not sure of what the cost per mile would be though - north of 2 million quid per mile easily I would have thought.

The very cheapest electrification done recently is over £2m per single track kilometre. Which works out at £6.5m per double track mile. More expensive routes can be double that. Gateway will be at the cheap end. But, as ever, we get to the critical point - who benefits?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The very cheapest electrification done recently is over £2m per single track kilometre. Which works out at £6.5m per double track mile. More expensive routes can be double that. Gateway will be at the cheap end. But, as ever, we get to the critical point - who benefits?

Good lord seriously? I better do some research I could swear that PRE to MAN came in at 2.6 million and the rest were well below 2 million. My bad if I am wrong sorry.

 

[markymark2000]

That's an interesting prospect, though it seems the case for it is far less clear now that Avanti have a fleet of bi-modes on order.

As for the Crewe to Chester shuttle, what I'd probably do of that line was electrified is keep it simple and just have Northern shuttle a 323 back and forth - they'll have plenty of them once the WM units turn up!

Given that service is primarily used by connecting passengers, it's rather important that it runs to time or thereabouts, and tacking what used to be a short stopping service onto a longer one is rarely a good thing for reliability - see, well, quite a bit of what happened in May 2018 really!

Hopefully at some point the Mid Cheshire line will be electrified as well. If Chester was to be electrified, then given that Manchester to Stockport is already, it would probably make sense as another fill-in, though with 1tph off-peak it's probably not a priority.

I get that the Bimodes might be coming in and it makes the project a bit less attractive however it would mean that you don't need the bimodes to run the service and if you have the full electric trains on the service making it more flexible. At times of disruption, you can then have the bimodes on Scotland routes without forcing Chester services to run as a Chester-Crewe shuttle.
It would reduce the amount of bimodes needed for the line and therefore also enables perhaps some other extensions or services or it allows the bimodes to be moved to another TOC.
Crewe - Chester shuttle, I fully agree. A 323 would be good. Shame there are no 2 car AC units as that is all that would be needed. I was looking more at reducing the amount of terminating trains at Crewe though. It's not too much of an issue but through trains are always more desirable than changing trains.


Mid Cheshire I can see being very low on the list. Around the same level as the HoW line. At least Crewe to Chester then opens up the 16 mile section of Chester to Warrington and the Halton Curve so there are plenty of trains per hour there benefitting.

 

[Bald Rick]

I get that the Bimodes might be coming in and it makes the project a bit less attractive however it would mean that you don't need the bimodes to run the service and if you have the full electric trains on the service making it more flexible. At times of disruption, you can then have the bimodes on Scotland routes without forcing Chester services to run as a Chester-Crewe shuttle.
It would reduce the amount of bimodes needed for the line and therefore also enables perhaps some other extensions or services or it allows the bimodes to be moved to another TOC.
Crewe - Chester shuttle, I fully agree. A 323 would be good. Shame there are no 2 car AC units as that is all that would be needed. I was looking more at reducing the amount of terminating trains at Crewe though. It's not too much of an issue but through trains are always more desirable than changing trains.

The bimodes are coming. And they won’t be running to Scotland.