FGW trains idling at Oxford sidings overnight

[turbo mick]

well the railway was there long before houses blame network rail for allowing the land by the up and down sidings to be used for housing development no complaints when locos were stabled.

ive never heard complaints about reading or old oak etc

 

[mindfeeder]

Plenty of NIMBY types in Oxford to be fair and i'm saying that as someone who was born there and very proud of it too!

God knows what the residents would be like if DRS starting using it as a nuclear flask train route. Not that it would ever happen.

Anyway going back to the point of pollution, there is Didcot Power Station (Coal) around 10 miles from Oxford which is hardly "environmentally friendly"

 

[O L Leigh]

Take Hertford for example, railway arrived in 1924 and local resident arrived in 2006 - guess who wins the battle of noise polluation?

Yep, the local nimby so trains stabled in the bay have to have their pans dropped, only thing is though it takes twice as long for the trains to be prepared then if they were left alone!!!

Yes I heard that about another location on your routes, though can't remember where.

So the residents have swapped the occasional clattering of a compressor once in a while for several hours of silence and then a good long clatter when the unit is brought back to life (always assuming the sodding pans go back up). Or is it the hum of the transformer oil pump they are objecting to?

We have houses right up to our carriage sidings at Chingford, Cambridge and Bishops Stortford, not to mention all the developments encroaching on Ilford Car Sheds. So far we have had no demands to turn the noise down and consequently no instructions to drop pans.

O L Leigh

 

[tony_mac]

My, very rough, calculations (based on observations of trucks!) estimates that a single HST engine left on for 5 hours a night would consume about 40,000 litres of Diesel a year.
So, 500 tonnes per year, would only be a dozen or so engines; it's not an outrageously unlikely figure (I could easily be out by a factor of 2 or more either way, and is the equivalent of average mileage of about 300 cars).

The entire rail consumption is 686,000 tonnes, I find it hard to believe 1.3% of the entire network's fuel is wasted in Oxford with a few HSTs ticking over.

It isn't, it's nowhere near 1% (which would be 6,860 tonnes).

 

[Isisbridge]

well the railway was there long before houses blame network rail for allowing the land by the up and down sidings to be used for housing development no complaints when locos were stabled.

ive never heard complaints about reading or old oak etc

Not sure if that's true actually. Jericho is early Victorian.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You said earlier that yours was a 1980's development!

 

[merlodlliw]

£350,000 worth based on the cost of red diesel per litre, which is about 70p

70 x 1000 = 70,000 / 100 = £700 per tonne

£700 x 500 tonnes = £350,000

The cost of red diesel(which I buy) is around 65 to 70p at the thousand litre rate.

The railways buy in rail diesel at the tonnage rate,and the price is far less
than red diesel rates, I also am under the impression rail diesel is taxed less than red diesel. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Isisbridge]

You said earlier that yours was a 1980's development!

That's right. A 1980 building in the heart of a Victorian development.
Nothing to do with these new developments on Network Rail land.

 

[Metroland]

The cost of red diesel(which I buy) it around 65 to 70p at the thousand litre rate.

The railways buy in rail diesel at the tonnage rate,and the price is far less
than red diesel rates, I also am under the impression rail diesel is taxed less than red diesel. Correct me if I am wrong.

Think it's the same as red deisel, but they do hedge it (as do any big purchaser, including other forms of transport: Ships, buses and tax free av gas)

So, 500 tonnes per year, would only be a dozen or so engines; it's not an outrageously unlikely figure (I could easily be out by a factor of 2 or more either way, and is the equivalent of average mileage of about 300 cars).


It isn't, it's nowhere near 1% (which would be 6,860 tonnes).

Proof that one shouldn't be posting really while working on something else, 0.073%

We can roughly conclude this is a waste of £300k-£350,000 though. Probably the same cost as employing all the station staff at Oxford. And a good illustration of why cuts to the rail budget under the current government would be a good thing, and that would get them to think about waste like normal business.

 

[Isisbridge]

Was able to chew this over and do some digging while out today - 3 vital facts to add in which will explain your problem isisbridge, 2 of which have been touched on.



Correct - the power packs are for the Turbos. HSTs cannot be easily attached to powerpacks, and these ones are incompatible. New ones would be required for the trailers, but these would be superfluous because...

The MTU warranty! The contract between MTU and fGW explicitly states that the warranty becomes invalid if the engine components fall below a certain optimum temperature. To obtain this temperature, the engines can't be stood off for more than an hour half - two hours. Thus power packs cannot be used, as its the oil and fluids (I can't obtain the exact one, but will edit it in later).



Covered by my point above. Hopefully this new technology is emerging soon - there is a reason why the GC HSTs are coming back /9s This will hopefully move us on from MTU and the warranty issue.



As touched on already, Dec 08 saw a significant Timetable change, which involved more Oxford and Cotswold services being operated by HSTs. Thus more HSTs sit in the sidings overnight. And unfortunately this cannot be reversed, as it's a requirement of the DfT to help combat overcrowding.



Covered above; but essentially this is also the reason why trains are started early in the morning. unfortunately we can't just ask passengers to "wear jumpers"...



Covered above - new timetable.

So, to summarise:

- Powerpacks are for the Turbo trains only; cannot be used on HSTs.
- HST powercars need to be lift idling overnight to keep the engine warm, and thus avoid voiding the warranty on their 'new' engines. MTU currently maintain their engines as well at Canton, St P Marsh and OOC.
- New timetable requires more HSTs from 2008 Dec.

What this means for you isisbridge is you now have answers. What can be done, I think, will be very little. Unless you offer to stump up on the warranty of course!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Spot on - requires at least 1 PC idling to keep heat up. Maintenance regime set by MTU requires it. And no supply at Oxford. Don't know whether or not its proposed though.

Why all this talk about HSTs? I think it's 165/166 units that are causing the problem. I've just noticed there's a prominent sign on the sidings which appears to say something like this:

THINK ENVIRONMENT

REDUCE
ENGINE EMISSIONS
AND NOISE LEVELS

SHUT DOWN
ENGINES ONCE
UNITS ARE
BERTHED

(apologies if that's not exactly right but difficult to read at long distance)

 

[j0hn0]

Why all this talk about HSTs? I think it's 165/166 units that are causing the problem. I've just noticed there's a prominent sign on the sidings which appears to say something like this:

THINK ENVIRONMENT

REDUCE
ENGINE EMISSIONS
AND NOISE LEVELS

SHUT DOWN
ENGINES ONCE
UNITS ARE
BERTHED

(apologies if that's not exactly right but difficult to read at long distance)

save the environment, unless its inconvenient

doh, might start thegrich off again

 

[Pumbaa]

Why all this talk about HSTs? I think it's 165/166 units that are causing the problem. I've just noticed there's a prominent sign on the sidings which appears to say something like this:

THINK ENVIRONMENT

REDUCE
ENGINE EMISSIONS
AND NOISE LEVELS

SHUT DOWN
ENGINES ONCE
UNITS ARE
BERTHED

(apologies if that's not exactly right but difficult to read at long distance)

That'll apply to day berthing; drivers are briefed about night berthing etc. They know what to do with that - different stabling points will have different sets of instructions for stabling overnight.

Interestingly, yes; I've just given your video a listen all the way through - they are 165/166s. My points outlined for the HST (before I knew it was 166s causing you grief) reasoned why you could be experiencing noise, and the points still stand.

The only reason 165/166s would be left overnight is if there is a fault that would require leaving the engines running to try and fix it before the start of next day service. It is possible that perhaps at least 1 unit each night has a fault of some description (bad luck if that's the case) and that's the cause of noise.

But still, take it up with fGW, you can only see if you get somewhere.

 

[Isisbridge]

That'll apply to day berthing; drivers are briefed about night berthing etc. They know what to do with that - different stabling points will have different sets of instructions for stabling overnight.

Interestingly, yes; I've just given your video a listen all the way through - they are 165/166s. My points outlined for the HST (before I knew it was 166s causing you grief) reasoned why you could be experiencing noise, and the points still stand.

The only reason 165/166s would be left overnight is if there is a fault that would require leaving the engines running to try and fix it before the start of next day service. It is possible that perhaps at least 1 unit each night has a fault of some description (bad luck if that's the case) and that's the cause of noise.

But still, take it up with fGW, you can only see if you get somewhere.

A lot of faults then? Every night for six months, two years running?

As for the sign telling the drivers to SHUT DOWN, I think you'll find that it applies to night berthing! Because I do remember some time back our local councillor saying she wanted signs put up to remind the drivers to switch off as soon as they came in at night. So that's obviously what those signs are for. And it is on the overnight stabling points. (I'm going to put a photo of it on Flickr very shortly)

So what's the excuse for the 165/166s not using the power packs?

 

[Pumbaa]

A lot of faults then? Every night for six months, two years running?

So what's the excuse for the 165/166s not using the power packs?

I realised it sounded too cutting; I meant it more sarcastically. I was agreeing with you that unless there is at least one fault every night, then there should be no reason for leaving them on. Hope that clarifies it!

And I cannot answer the second point for you I'm afraid.

 

[Isisbridge]

I realised it sounded too cutting; I meant it more sarcastically. I was agreeing with you that unless there is at least one fault every night, then there should be no reason for leaving them on. Hope that clarifies it!

And I cannot answer the second point for you I'm afraid.

Thanks. Seems to be vindicating my argument.
Links to my photos of the sidings:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61686932@N00/4601354879/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61686932@N00/4601355629/

 

[Pumbaa]

So that's obviously what those signs are for. And it is on the overnight stabling points. (I'm going to put a photo of it on Flickr very shortly)

So what's the excuse for the 165/166s not using the power packs?

Photo found - my argument being based on a similar sign being erected up here for day stabling; primary schools and a residential development back onto the sidings.

Re the power packs and fGW claiming not to leave the engines running; I can't answer that any further. Bearing in mind the power packs are situated on 2 of the centre walkways between two roads, it may be something as simple as staff simply not bothering to walk to that side of the depot to collect the pack. The other prognosis could be that the packs are not getting refilled, which wouldn't surprise me. Edge Hill don't bother with power packs anymore, and just the Shunter fires everything up at just before 5am, if it hasn't already been left on overnight to avoid faulting in the morning.

 

[bengley]

I heard an AWS beep too.

 

[VP185]

I work in a maintenance depot, next to a residential area and at no point during the night do we ever have all the engines shut down.... it is not possible. It may not be the same type of operation at Oxford but there are similarities.

Most diesel multiple unit trains will shut down if left for around 15 minutes if the key has been removed.

If left shut down for a long period of time the unit loses all its compressed air so upon restarting the engine there is a facility to run the engines at full rpm until enough air is obtained. This is obviously very noisy, and generally, if the engines are cold produces a great deal of exhaust emissions. It also adds to the wear and tear on the engines. Some units do not have this facility, without this facility a dead unit with no air can take 15+ minutes to build enough air to enable the train to move.
It is therefore quiet possible that a train left ticking over consumes less fuel than if it is continually shut down and restarted. It is also kinder to the engines.

Light maintenance, exams and repairs are also carried out on trains at night by maintenance teams. This nearly always requires the engines to be running. Most, if not all, train equipment needs the engines to be running in order to produce compressed air to operate.

Everyone will always choose to work in a warm envrionment rather than a cold one, leaving the engines running provides heat. Passengers expect to board a warm train, not an cold one with ice having formed on the inside. A train doesn't heat up in a matter of minutes.

There maybe operational or technical reasons why engines are left running. During freezing weather, our trains are left running all night because of the onboard toilets. If the temperature drops below a certain level the train will dump all its toilet water. If the toilet water freezes in the train it causes significant damage and obviously the toilet is then out of order.
Shutting down some of units causes damage to the onboard electrics and air con units. Like I said, diesel trains tend to shut themselves down after a period of time. During an automatic shut down, the train electronics goes through a procedure to ensure it safely shuts down. Forcing a train to shut down can cause problems. So there are reasons.

Every train that comes into any stabling point or maintenance facility has to be prepared as well. For a 165/166 I would guess you are looking at around 30 minutes to get it ready for service. An HST you would be looking at closer to 60 minutes. During this time the engines have to be running to enable a complete safety check on the train, to ensure all equipment is working correctly and to walk around the outside of the unit to check all is in order. There has been comments about AWS and door noises. I suspect if this is occuring you will hear the occasionally horn being sounded.

When stabled with the engines running all non-essential equipment, like lighting, is switched off. This reduces fuel consumption.

All railway companies are privately run business, it is well documented how the industry is profit driven. Each company will know exactly how much fuel is being consumed, even down to how much each unit is consuming, where and when. If a train operating company thinks fuel is being wasted, they make it known.