FGW Franchise

[sprinterguy]

Maybe a 630 seat train won't be needed all the time, but alot more than 315 seats are needed. A choice of 315 or 630 seat units leaves an awkward suituation if, as I suspect, loadings are between 400 and 500 passengers on many services.

Are the current HST services regularly running at 75 - 90% of seating capacity occupied between Swansea and Cardiff outside of the high peaks? I haven't travelled the route often enough to pass judgement, but with those sorts of potential passenger numbers that seems to be what you are suggesting, when you consider that (particularly with an IEP depot at Swansea) the busiest peak time IEP services will probably be 630 seat trains anyway.

 

[The Ham]

Interesting development:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2015/03/24-derby-to-build-new-trains.html

NEW Bombardier Electrostars are included in the plans for the new First Great Western franchise, which will be a boost for jobs in Derby.

The main fleets for long-distance services will be Intercity Expresses and hybrid AT300s, both from Hitachi.

However, Thames Valley electrification will need large numbers of suburban electric multiple units, some of which will be 21 Class 365s cascaded from Great Northern.

Also heading west will be 29 Class 387 four-car sets, which are currently being delivered from Bombardier in Derby to Thameslink on a temporary basis.

In the longer term, all 29 sets will move to First Great Western for Thames Valley services, but a further eight sets have been ordered by Porterbrook specifically for FGW, Railnews has learned. Most will run as four or eight-car trains, but FGW said there was also potential for a 'very limited' number of 12-car sets.

The additional capacity offered by each four-car Class 387 rather than a three-car diesel Class 165 will help to fulfil First's pledge to offer an additional 8,000 seats in peak hours between Reading and London by 2018.

The plans for AT300s for services west of Bristol have not yet been confirmed, because they depend on a private financing deal and DfT approval, which is due by June.

Diesel class 165s displaced by Thames Valley electrification will stay with FGW for services between Cardiff, Bristol and the south coast. The 158s released from this will be used for local main line services in the far south west. They will be needed when local services between Plymouth and Penzance are increased to half-hourly.

Departing rolling stock will include the Class 142 and 144 Pacers currently in use in the Bristol and Exeter areas, while the Devon and Cornwall branch lines will mainly be worked by two-car Class 150s rather than the single-car Class 153s.

 

[jopsuk]

Um, that's already reported on and discussed further up the thread

 

[Minstral25]

Yes Reading to Gatwick should be South West Trains in my opinion but only once electrified would this make sense. Reading to Gatwick has long been due na improved service.

I would hope that when the Reigate - Guildford 17 miles of electrification happens that the London Victoria to Reigate trains are extended to Guildford under TSGN Southern and doubled to hourly. Providing a decent Guildford to East Croydon service at the same time.

I don't see much willingness from locals for SWT to appear at Redhill as it will just reduce Southern's income and ability to invest in Redhill which is sorely needed. This would happen as there will be a potentially direct route to London via SWT Guildford if that happens

 

[tbtc]

Northern have 41 EMUs (excluding 319s) currently, so if they have a fleet of only 319s and 350/4s that will still mean a lot of EMUs to find new homes for. I've created a future use of 319 discussion thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=113742

Cheers – will continue the discussion there

Why not turn over the branch to a light railway and just run 2 car trains on it like the DLR cars?

Amongst all of the discussions about EMUs, we often forget that there are a number of lightly loaded lines that are going to be converted (e.g. Cardiff Bay) where a sixty/ eighty metre train would be overkill.

I wonder if there’s a market for some smaller/ shorter EMUs for lines like this? (or, as you say, consider light rail – excuse my local ignorance of the area, but if it were to be converted, is there any scope for extension anywhere, like the centre of either town?)

Hopefully the imminent electrification plan will finally bite the bullet and commit to electrifying the rest of the Southern with Third Rail for Reading

Third Rail?

If we’re going to electrify it then we might as well electrify it properly...

I am extremely concerned that most of the 91s won't find work once IEP has arrived in about 2020, which in my view would be a terrible waste. More 180s (perhaps even all of them) are supposedly going to end up with Grand Central but I do wonder whether the prediction (I think by one of the Modern Railways coloumnists) that there will be Voyagers cut up before the last Pacer is gone is still possible

It’s possible.

We’ve ordered too many “fast” DMUs since privatisation relative to “slow” DMUs (I think that every new DMU has been 100mph/ 125mph?) , and the fact that we are focussing electrification on “fast” lines (the MML and GWML are 125mph, the TPE line and Falkirk High lines are fairly fast) means that we are going to have a surplus of “fast” diesels.

Hull Trains may want IEP in the next few years. Maybe there’ll be sufficient bits of the Cross Country network electrified for the next franchise to introduce bi-mode trains to replace (some) Voyagers – especially if there’s going to be fully electric Basingstoke – Milton Keynes – Manchester service. The next WCML franchise will probably introduce something to replace a decent chunk of its Voyagers. We’ll have too many 125mph diesels; we won’t have enough diesels suited to running slower lines in the short term (unless the D78 project gets going).

But that’s where we are. Some things become obsolete part way through their “natural” life, some last longer than intended. Pacers continue to serve Altrincham station whilst Metrolink’s T68s don’t. We’ll probably see some of First Group’s “ftr” buses withdrawn whilst vehicles twice as old continue in regular service. We demolish blocks of flats before they reach fifty years old whilst millions of people still live in houses that are over a hundred years old. Some clothes/ pairs of shoes last me a year or two, some last a decade.

It’s not beyond realms of possibility that we’ll see some converted D78 stock running in regular service on heavy rail lines through Rotherham whilst things like 180s are being cut up at Booths Scrapyard adjacent to the line. It may sound bad, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world.

What’s the alternative? Keep stock on unsuitable lines for the sake of getting a nice neat thirty/ forty years of service out of it before we can bear to part with it? That sounds like the Accountants who ran First Group, who insisted on keeping decrepit buses rusting at the back of yards until they’d reached the “magic number” of years so that their notional book value was fully depreciated!

But what about the busy summer weekends in south Wales? And Cardiff-Swansea all the time?

I don’t want this to sound disrespectful but what about a handful of busy weekend services to Pembroke Dock each year? Whilst these are important locally (just like everyone’s local line is of local importance), they’re a blip in the grand scheme of things.

Some solution will be cobbled together, no doubt, there’ll be some diesel stock to provide beefed up trains on a handful of weekends a year (there’ll be DMUs on routes from Cardiff to the Marches/ Gloucester etc that could be “borrowed” for the sake of a few weekends a year?), but that doesn’t mean it has to be 125mph stock or that the services have to come from London (it’s not Londoners heading for the beach at Tenby, AIUI...).

As for the Cardiff – Swansea services, at the moment if you want a seat you need to aim for the HSTs – you’re going to struggle on a two coach 175 just as you’re going to struggle on any 143/150 on a “Swanline” service.

BUT, with electrification, I’d imagine that most services would move over to EMU operation (cut most of the Manchester services at Cardiff to free up DMUs for strengthening in the Marches), which means the passenger volumes should be spread better between the other services (if we assume that the current ATW offering is replaced by something commonplace like a 317/ 319/ 321).

So, rather than most people aiming to get the one “big” train an hour, the demand will be spread between three or four services an hour (with the faster acceleration of EMUs meaning less time difference between the slowest services on the line and the fastest services), most of which will have at least 250/300 seats.

If Gatwick's proposal for major expansion is given the go ahead after the general election, then the whole issue of train services to Gatwick will be up in the air

Deliberate pun?

a five coach IEP-style train is going to be 130m long – given the space “wasted” by doors in shorter carriages, that may mean that a five coach IEP has more seats than a conventional six coach DMU – and a five coach IEP could have more than half the seating of an HST – so not the *huge* reduction it may appear.

5-car IEP is 315 seats, so slightly more than half an IC125 but taking a class 175 as a 'conventional DMU' you'd get 310 seats in a 5-car formation (one 2-car set and one 3-car set). If you made a 5-car 175 with three intermediate cars and two driving vehicles it'd be 325 seats

The poster was claiming the 5-car IEP is equivelent to a conventional 6-car DMU. I assumed 'conventional DMU' meant a unit designed to do what a DMU ought to be doing, rather than 125mph intercity units with large crumple zones

No, I was comparing a 5x26m long train to a hypothetical six coach train of existing 23m 125mph design (180, 220, 221, 222, “baby pendolino”...), since any order for London – Devon/ Cornwall obviously needs 125mph running (which means crumple zones etc).

Obviously if you compare a 5x26m long train to a train with no crumple zones then there’s going to be more scope for space on the latter, but that’s not comparing apples with apples.

Five coach 175s are not going to be the answer on the Paddington – Penzance line.

Interesting development:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2015/03/24-derby-to-build-new-trains.html

I thought that the last batch of 377/387s was the last that could be ordered (all other options exhausted), and all future builds would have to be 379s?

 

[Class377/5]

I thought that the last batch of 377/387s was the last that could be ordered (all other options exhausted), and all future builds would have to be 379s?

Think your confused on this.

The 387s are a uprated 379 unit, both are Electrostar models (same bodsyshells, hence a 379 being used on the 110mph testing).

The 8x 387s listed for GW aren't actually a new order at all but rather the final options of the entire 387 order of 64 units.

Any new EMU build from Bombardier will now be Aventra not Electrostar.

 

[Hartington]

As the paths down the B&H are already there and used for route refreshining, I shouldn't think it will make that much difference.

(Tries not to import discussion on the B&H is a white elephant from another thread, walks away whistling.....)

The paths that exist are only between Yeovil, Castle Cary/Westbury and Salisbury and are at "interesting" times. The application implies an all day service.

 

[MarkyT]

I would hope that when the Reigate - Guildford 17 miles of electrification happens that the London Victoria to Reigate trains are extended to Guildford under TSGN Southern and doubled to hourly. Providing a decent Guildford to East Croydon service at the same time.

Could be combined with a regular Southern service via Leatherhead and Sutton to West Croydon and on to London Bridge. A new outer suburban circular, linking a large number of south London destinations and interchanges with Guildford, where the service could use platforms 2 and 3, keeping the west side platforms free for the North Downs fast trains to and from Reading. If the Wokingham-Guildford section was electrified too, the stopping trains there could be SWT operated as part of the Reading service group along with the Ascot-Aldershot-Guildford link. The oft-proposed additional west side terminal platforms at Guildford could be used by these latter services. The faster, limited stop Gatwick services might become part of XC with journeys through Reading to and from the Midlands and North, or With continuous electrification it could be run by either SWT or Southern if limited to Reading, or remain with FGW if worked through to Oxford or similar with dual voltage EMUs.

 

[jimm]

Maybe a 630 seat train won't be needed all the time, but alot more than 315 seats are needed. A choice of 315 or 630 seat units leaves an awkward suituation if, as I suspect, loadings are between 400 and 500 passengers on many services. Given the numbers of units ordered, I'm afraid that the TOC will provide a single 5-car when 400-500 passengers want to travel. Another problem is if the TOC is unable to meet peak capacity requirements into major cites other than London since the peak is at a similar time wherever and all the strengthening units look like being needed in London at that time.

Yes, you've been claiming this here and elsewhere for years but I'm sorry, I just don't believe that all day, every day, every HST running west of Cardiff is carrying more than 315 passengers, unless it is some freakish part of the network where traffic does not fall away outside the peaks - or the ATW trains are running empty because everyone waits for an HST to appear...

FGW has a good few years' experience of helping to meet peak demand between Swansea and Cardiff , so probably has a more accurate picture - complete with proper passenger counts, rather than what you 'suspect' - of what loadings are across the day. And in all the other places across its network.

Please note that the proposed South West order is being masterminded by First Group, not the DfT, so its managers were perfectly at liberty to order all the big, long trains they wanted. But that's not what they have decided to do. Maybe they know something you don't.

So forgive me for preferring to wait to see what the timetabling and diagramming team at FGW come up with - and what sort of semi-fast service ATW or any other future Wales franchisee has in mind for the development of its services along the South Wales main line from 2018, which is just as relevant as whether there are 315 or 630 seats on the GW services, given that a typical 4-car emu with 2+2 seats can seat a good 350 people - or will those be too small as well and South Wales will need a bespoke fleet of five or six-car emus on top of all your nine-car 801s?

 

[berneyarms]

One wonders if some effort could be made to co-ordinate the two hourly stopping Paddington-Exeter service with the Heart of Wessex line services at Castle Cary and provide connections to/from Reading, London and also offer connections west.

 

[387star]

It is confirmed from September company to be known as GWR

 

[northwichcat]

It is confirmed from September company to be known as GWR

First getting that name before Alliance try and register it?

 

[po8crg]

First getting that name before Alliance try and register it?

All the big 4 names and the names of pre-big4 companies whose registration hasn't lapsed are owned by some residual BR body and can only be used by franchisees on licence.

 

[Flamingo]

Yes, you've been claiming this here and elsewhere for years but I'm sorry, I just don't believe that all day, every day, every HST running west of Cardiff is carrying more than 315 passengers, unless it is some freakish part of the network where traffic does not fall away outside the peaks - or the ATW trains are running empty because everyone waits for an HST to appear...

FGW has a good few years' experience of helping to meet peak demand between Swansea and Cardiff , so probably has a more accurate picture - complete with proper passenger counts, rather than what you 'suspect' - of what loadings are across the day. And in all the other places across its network.

Please note that the proposed South West order is being masterminded by First Group, not the DfT, so its managers were perfectly at liberty to order all the big, long trains they wanted. But that's not what they have decided to do. Maybe they know something you don't.

So forgive me for preferring to wait to see what the timetabling and diagramming team at FGW come up with - and what sort of semi-fast service ATW or any other future Wales franchisee has in mind for the development of its services along the South Wales main line from 2018, which is just as relevant as whether there are 315 or 630 seats on the GW services, given that a typical 4-car emu with 2+2 seats can seat a good 350 people - or will those be too small as well and South Wales will need a bespoke fleet of five or six-car emus on top of all your nine-car 801s?

Outside of matchday, 300 seats would be more than adequate. The HST's usually have plenty of seats towards the front - but in my experience Welsh passengers have a bigger aversion to sitting beside each other (and place their shopping accordingly) than anywhere else on the network.

I would say a busy HST has 200-250 on board.

Outside of peak time (or half-term) the trains cope fine with three cars of whatever make-up, and the two car 15x/14x cope just fine off-peak in my experience (travelling daily).

 

[infobleep]

Bedwyn commuters must be fuming the line won't be electrified and they lose the direct commuter service to Oondon although presumably retaining a HST?

Yes Reading to Gatwick should be South West Trains in my opinion but only once electrified would this make sense. Reading to Gatwick has long been due na improved service.

Regarding making trains accessible a FGW 150/2 has emerged from the works with a new passenger information system (won't be activated yet) a new toilet module a new wheelchair ramp new door sounders and improved led lighting throughout oh and new flooring

I hear little of other operators undertaking such work in time for 2020 ie East Midlands Trains and Arriva Trains Wales.... Though ATW are refreshing some of their 150/2s which look quite smart. However Livery change remains slow... Sorry off topic

It use to have an improved service on Sundays but First Great Western cut it back. Perhaps they felt the demand wasn't there.

 

[21C101]

All the big 4 names and the names of pre-big4 companies whose registration hasn't lapsed are owned by some residual BR body and can only be used by franchisees on licence.

I believe the HRA has an agreement/licence which allows preserved railways who are members to use the names and liveries.

I suspect the reason they have not gone back to Chocolate and cream and proposed all over brunswick green is that chocolate and cream is a pig to keep clean (which is why BR WRs reuse of it was short lived).

Looking at the 387s on Thameslink today the doors resemble GWR formerly FGW Brunswick Green more than New Southern Railway green.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Third Rail?

If we’re going to electrify it then we might as well electrify it properly...

Depends how keen Network Rail are to fork out to provide a.c. substations, renew all the signalling in the area and immunise everything including the c.c substations for the sake of a few miles of infill electrification being a.c not d.c.

Ashford to Hastings and Basingstoke Westwards Romsey line makes sense to be a.c., North Downs and Uckfield line dosen't.

But this is rather off topic and has been done to death elsewhere.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Little has been said about the North Cotswold service to Worcester-Malvern-Hereford. Weekdays it's a mix of HST and 180 with some Turbo's at the weekend. How will that work with Bi-mode IEP, no 180s and no 16X?

 

[anthony263]

I think it will be worked by 5 carriages class 800's with the some remaining class 165/166's being used if any are left at Reading depot

 

[Class377/5]

Looking at the 387s on Thameslink today the doors resemble GWR formerly FGW Brunswick Green more than New Southern Railway green.

And the GWR is in the reverse of thier current livery.

 

[21C101]

And the GWR is in the reverse of thier current livery.

Assuming they use the same livery for suburban stuff as intercities. Maybe they are planning something like SWT ie having a different variation of the livery for the EMUs. Will certainly save a few bob on vinyl.

 

[JonathanH]

It use to have an improved service on Sundays but First Great Western cut it back. Perhaps they felt the demand wasn't there.

If you are referring to the North Downs Line, no one used the two-hourly stopping trains on Sunday. The cut back to the current service was fair enough.

Maybe now that an increase in passengers numbers is recognised, there will be scope for two Reading to Gatwick trains an hour (although two-track railway planning south of Redhill probably prevents it rather more than any other issue.)

 

[387star]

The new livery and branding sounds very good

I actually think the present HST livery is superb but the units look very drab especially compared to SWT livery would have been much smarter if they painted them one shade of blue then added lines or place names

 

[cactustwirly]

The new livery and branding sounds very good

I actually think the present HST livery is superb but the units look very drab especially compared to SWT livery would have been much smarter if they painted them one shade of blue then added lines or place names

Hence they are being repainted into plain blue

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hence they are being repainted into plain blue

I recall hearing that was because the current engineering staff don't like vinyls as they tend to cause corrosion by trapping water underneath, so the more basic DMU livery is painted.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Little has been said about the North Cotswold service to Worcester-Malvern-Hereford. Weekdays it's a mix of HST and 180 with some Turbo's at the weekend. How will that work with Bi-mode IEP, no 180s and no 16X?

I think it will be worked by 5 carriages class 800's with the some remaining class 165/166's being used if any are left at Reading depot

We can all speculate, I just wondered if there was a definitive answer anywhere that I've missed.

 

[FenMan]

If you are referring to the North Downs Line, no one used the two-hourly stopping trains on Sunday. The cut back to the current service was fair enough.

Maybe now that an increase in passengers numbers is recognised, there will be scope for two Reading to Gatwick trains an hour (although two-track railway planning south of Redhill probably prevents it rather more than any other issue.)

Really? The cut back to Sunday services on the North Downs resulted in trains that are full and standing, particularly during the summer and when the Reading and Guildford shops are open. Something much closer to the current Saturday service is needed from 9:30 to 18:00.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As far as the turbos go, I think the full answer I got yesterday may give a clue as to the Cotswolds. December 2018 would see 8/9 Reading 166 diagrams, 7 North Downs, 1 Maidenhead-Bourne End peaks and 8/9 Reading 165 2 car diagrams, 2 North Downs, 1 Greenford, 1 Marlow, 2 Bedwyn shuttle (to be replaced by Battery EMU, if approved), 1 Oxford-Banbury and 1 peak Cotswold "all stations".

I presume the main Cotswold services will GE a mix of 5, 9 and possibly 10 cars worth of SET/AT300. There were strong rumours that the original order for the 800/801 left a shortfall for the line and 2 of the 9 car AT300 fleet were intended to work Cotswold diagrams.

When we get a sight of what the timetable is, we should have a better idea.

 

[infobleep]

If you are referring to the North Downs Line, no one used the two-hourly stopping trains on Sunday. The cut back to the current service was fair enough.

Maybe now that an increase in passengers numbers is recognised, there will be scope for two Reading to Gatwick trains an hour (although two-track railway planning south of Redhill probably prevents it rather more than any other issue.)

The two hourly stopping services gave me a quicker journey time from Guildford to Haywards Heath compared to any of the services that run now on a Sunday, including the fast one every other hour to Gatwick Airport.

During engineering works between Redhill and Gatwick Airport on a Sunday, when North Downs Line trains terminate at Redhill, passengers can have a very long wait for a connecting Southern service towards Gatwick. Can't remember the exact waiting time but I'm sure it's around 30 minutes.

 

[freetoview33]

I think it will be worked by 5 carriages class 800's with the some remaining class 165/166's being used if any are left at Reading depot

Maybe a few 2 X 5 cars at peak or maybe evenings and sundays

 

[jimm]

Little has been said about the North Cotswold service to Worcester-Malvern-Hereford. Weekdays it's a mix of HST and 180 with some Turbo's at the weekend. How will that work with Bi-mode IEP, no 180s and no 16X?

From FGW's press release about the line issued on Monday

In May 2017, new services will be added to and from Great Malvern, with the number of through services between London and Worcester also increasing

New Super Express Trains, introduced as part of the Government’s Intercity Express Programme, will appear on the North Cotswolds route from summer 2017 onwards. These new trains will provide a significant improvement in rolling stock quality and passenger comfort. Ten carriage trains on peak services will have 15% more standard class seats than on the High Speed Trains on the route today

In December 2018 a major timetable change will take full advantage of the Super Express Trains, with hourly intercity services over the route to/from Worcester (and extensions to/from Hereford in certain hours).

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk...-fleet-upgrade-for-north-cotswolds-passengers

Certainly talk locally of some residual Turbo operation at busy times, which tallies with Clarence Yard's post but with a baseline hourly Class 800 each way, plus 10-cars in the peak flow directions, not likely to be many of them.

I'd expect a Turbo to stay on the current morning peak circuit of Oxford-Worceter-Oxford and the late afternoon stopper out of Oxford and its return working - the afternoon train is currently a 180 but that is to ease pressure on the 15.52 180 from Paddington to Worcester, which lost its diagrammed HST to the current overhaul programme, by taking connecting passengers off the 16.22 Paddington-Oxford. Put people travelling from Reading and London on the new hourly Class 800 service and a Turbo would be fine for the Oxford commuters, who are mostly off the train at the first few stops anyway.

PS: For all the 'big trains are what we need all the time' merchants out there, I had occasion to travel into Oxford mid-afternoon yesterday on a 180-worked service starting from Great Malvern. There were 60 or 70 of us on board arriving at Oxford, so not exactly fighting for seats in a 280-seat train, and there were still a couple of dozen empty seats free in standard and about 30 in first as it left Oxford. With more people getting off at Reading - the 180 follows a couple of HSTs out of there, so not likely to be huge crowds waiting - it was probably fine with its measly five coaches and 280 seats all the way to Paddington. Not so on its return run as the 17.18 semi-fast to Oxford but that's another story and an illustration of where the ability to couple up to five more coaches could be helpful, though the 17.18 would probably be a candidate for a monster Class 387 formation anyway come 2017 or 2018.