FGW Franchise

[Kite159]

Also as the new stopping services are likely to be class 158's it could also limit the number of people who opt to use the Intercity services over the local services.

158s being the ideal unit for a stopping service with the slow end doors...

 

[iantherev]

South West & Wales and Wessex Trains used to use 158s on stopping services in Cornwall without too many problems.

 

[D1009]

South West & Wales and Wessex Trains used to use 158s on stopping services in Cornwall without too many problems.

Yes in Cornwall extended dwell times have become the norm, so 158s will be an improvement on the HSTs.

 

[MarkyT]

There is a siding to the West of Basingstoke station on the north side of the line. Perhaps the Basingstoke to Manchester service could turn around in it to minimise the time spent occupying the platform.

Alternatively a second bay could be fairly easily constructed alongside the 'Great Western Siding' which parallels the existing 'Reading Bay' (Platfrom 5) today.

With more track alterations but avoiding an entirely new platform, a new shorter Reading local bay track might instead be reconstructed on the other side of the existing platform with the existing platform for the XC.

http://www.townend.me/files/basingstoke.pdf

Both options would keep the OHLE neatly away from the 3rd rail.
If the LSW southwest of Basingstoke was converted to OHLE as part of electric spine, then the proposed additional electric XC EWR train might also be extended to Southampton.

 

[JonathanH]

I can't see very much about the North Downs line. Presumably this will remain class 165/166 operated?

There is a mention of 3tph in the response document to the consultation. That would need 9 165/166 units before any spares are considered and would just about dovetail with the building of Platform 0 at Redhill which I think should be available in January 2018.

It appears that Reading to Gatwick would be left with the current 3-car 165/1 fleet rather than 166s?

SLC 2: May 2017 – December 2018.
North Downs services (Reading to Gatwick Airport) will also see strengthening from the current 2tph to 3 tph.

Quite what a 3tph timetable would look like is interesting given the long signal pathways, need to maintain a stopping service and relatively quick Reading to Gatwick timing, and interaction with the predominately 2tph / 4tph timetables on the Southern and South West Trains networks.

There is also mention in the consultation document that there could be consideration of transfer to another operator (although not necessary Southern or South West Trains)

Question 4

Respondents are invited to identify any changes or reorganisation to the routes served by the Great Western franchise that they would recommend; and to explain their rationale.

Aspirations in response to this question included:
* Addition of the Bristol – Swindon – Oxford service
* Stroud valley services beyond Cheltenham
* Addition of the Cardiff – Cheltenham service
* Transfer of Reading – Gatwick service to another operator and possible combination with East West rail.

Although these suggestions are outside the scope of the immediate direct award, they will be kept in mind for the design and specification of the long-term franchise following this direct award.

 

[MarkyT]

There is also mention in the consultation document that there could be consideration of transfer to another operator (although not necessary Southern or South West Trains)

Perhaps Crosscountry for a fast service, as an extension of their Reading terminators using Voyagers. Can't see them wanting to stop at the local stations though. SWT seems the most appropriate considering interactions with other lines, but getting Salisbury based DMUs to and from the line would be a challenge - maybe a small sub-shed at Redhill for light maintenance/refuel and servicing.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It is 3 tph on the North Downs. 2 Gatwick and 1 Redhill throughout the day with a mixture of 2 car 165 and 166, 9 diagrams, 7 of which are 166. I was also told that all the 3 car 165 units are heading off to Bristol.

Haven't been told what the timetable is but 3 tph offpeak for the North Downs is quite an achievement.

 

[TheWalrus]

Where do SWT and Southern have stock and crew depots along the Reading-Gatwick route?

 

[JonathanH]

It is 3 tph on the North Downs. 2 Gatwick and 1 Redhill throughout the day with a mixture of 2 car 165 and 166, 9 diagrams, 7 of which are 166. I was also told that all the 3 car 165 units are heading off to Bristol.

Haven't been told what the timetable is but 3 tph offpeak for the North Downs is quite an achievement.

What is the residual turbo fleet at Reading after electrification? 9 units for Reading to Gatwick, 2 units for Marlow, 2 units for Bedwyn and 3 or 4 units for North Oxfordshire? That would translate to around 10 166s and 10 2-car 165/1s including maintenance spares.

Is the plan for them to rotate with units from the Bristol area in the same way that Bristol allocated 150s have diagrams in Devon and Cornwall or would Reading have its own fleet?

 

[RPM]

If they fit the 165/166 units with Chiltern-style air con then that will impact on the units' luggage rack capacity. Not ideal for the Gatwick Airport services.

 

[21C101]

Where do SWT and Southern have stock and crew depots along the Reading-Gatwick route?

Selhurst - Damn sight nearer for Reading Gatwick than it is for Marshlink. Hopefully the imminent electrification plan will finally bite the bullet and commit to electrifying the rest of the Southern with Third Rail for Reading - Gatwick and Uckfield and 25kV for Basingstoke/Soton - Exeter/Bristol

As for Marlow. How expensive would it be to convert a handful of 2 car 465s to dual traction?

 

[The Ham]

Where do SWT and Southern have stock and crew depots along the Reading-Gatwick route?

SWT's have stock sidings at Guildford, not sure if they have crew there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is 3 tph on the North Downs. 2 Gatwick and 1 Redhill throughout the day with a mixture of 2 car 165 and 166, 9 diagrams, 7 of which are 166. I was also told that all the 3 car 165 units are heading off to Bristol.

Haven't been told what the timetable is but 3 tph offpeak for the North Downs is quite an achievement.

Assuming that all the 3 car units are heading west, that could be interesting for the route, either that means no extra seats for a line which can have some very heavily loaded services. However, given the notes about SDO being fitted it could result in most services being 2 coaches with some 4 coach services for the busiest services.

 

[iantherev]

SWT's have stock sidings at Guildford, not sure if they have crew there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Assuming that all the 3 car units are heading west, that could be interesting for the route, either that means no extra seats for a line which can have some very heavily loaded services. However, given the notes about SDO being fitted it could result in most services being 2 coaches with some 4 coach services for the busiest services.

The 166s will still be 3 car.

 

[Starmill]

...loco-hauled 442s are proposed as an interim measure for TPE.

Wait a minute. This is a serious proposal!? I assumed it was a joke that just kept on popping up, mainly because it's preposterous.

 

[Stats]

It is 3 tph on the North Downs. 2 Gatwick and 1 Redhill throughout the day with a mixture of 2 car 165 and 166, 9 diagrams, 7 of which are 166. I was also told that all the 3 car 165 units are heading off to Bristol.

Haven't been told what the timetable is but 3 tph offpeak for the North Downs is quite an achievement.

If it is throughout the day that will be interesting given that the Wessex route study said

the third stopping service required to maintain connectivity to
and from smaller stations on the North Downs route can only be
timetabled as far as Redhill. Furthermore, this can only be
achieved during off-peak hours as a result of network capacity
constraints within Network Rail’s Sussex Route in the Redhill
area. Further changes to the capability of the network would be
required in the Redhill area to also achieve this during peak hours

 

[physics34]

Where do SWT and Southern have stock and crew depots along the Reading-Gatwick route?

Southern have a crew depot at Redhill.

 

[northwichcat]

Wait a minute. This is a serious proposal!? I assumed it was a joke that just kept on popping up, mainly because it's preposterous.

This is what's in the ITT:

Only the following rolling stock may be proposed by Bidders for inclusion within
the TPE Train Fleet

i. The class 185 and class 350 multiple units that are currently comprised within
the TPE Train Fleet (subject to the requirement to sub-lease Class 185 units to
the Northern Franchise for an initial period until December 2017);

ii. Diesel multiple units that are not Class 14x, Class 15x or Class 17x and that
are currently leased by a relevant operator other than the current TPE and
Northern franchisees, but that will be demonstrably surplus to the requirements
of that operator, either because new rolling stock is being procured to replace
it, or because it is diesel stock that will be displaced by committed electrification
schemes, or because other rolling stock is due to be cascaded in to replace it;

iii. Up to four 2-car diesel multiple units of similar characteristics to TPE’s Class
170 units must be assumed for bid purposes to be leased until December 2017,
as a proxy for the arrangements that the Department envisages will be put in
place with the incumbent operator to mitigate the transfer of these units to the
Chiltern Franchise with effect from February 2016;

iv. Vehicles of Class 442 following their release from the TSGN franchise; and

v. Any new-build rolling stock that the Bidder commits to procure.
In addition, Bidders may include existing locomotives and/or coaching stock within
their Bids (apart from those that are to be leased to the Northern franchisee during
the term of the current Northern franchise and for the initial part of the next
Northern franchise), but only if either Condition 1 or Condition 2 or Condition 3
below is met.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ninethly - maybe there’ll be regrets in Scotland that they didn’t wait for a subsequent batch of shiny new bi-mode 80Xs, and are getting 1970s HSTs instead? I know that the mindset of enthusiasts is to envy the greener grass north of the border (and to use the freak circumstances of the Borders branchline as some kind of benchmark for what could/ should be built in England "if only things were more enlightened"), but maybe that attitude will change? New bi-modes in Cornwall, over a hundred self-powered coaches at Northern

National Express proposed new build stock in their Scotrail bid but Transport Scotland chose to award the franchise to Abellio who proposed cascaded HSTs and releasing the 170s.

From subsequent developments it sounds like Transport Scotland didn't really want any of the bids exactly as they were, given they revised the Scotrail contract so that Scotrail retains a number of 170s and releases a smaller number of 156s and 158s in lieu.

Maybe Transport Scotland preferred the idea of getting tried and tested Intercity stock from a fixed date?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Firstly, a five coach IEP-style train is going to be 130m long – given the space “wasted” by doors in shorter carriages, that may mean that a five coach IEP has more seats than a conventional six coach DMU – and a five coach IEP could have more than half the seating of an HST – so not the *huge* reduction it may appear.

5-car IEP is 315 seats, so slightly more than half an IC125 but taking a class 175 as a 'conventional DMU' you'd get 310 seats in a 5-car formation (one 2-car set and one 3-car set). If you made a 5-car 175 with three intermediate cars and two driving vehicles it'd be 325 seats. So the extra length of the carriages in an IEP is roughly speaking enough to compensate for the kitchen and 125mph crumple zones in a 5-car set.

Fifthly – if we can order 26m coaches for the twisty turny route through Devon/ Cornwall, does this mean we can forget about the “IEP will need billions of pounds of route clearances” froth?

The route through to Penzance was always included on the map of IEP route clearance, even when IC125s were to remain the main fleet for that route with IEP ending at Exeter. I seem to recall the cost estimate for the work was in the hundreds of millions (but not billions). However, Pembroke Dock was not included on the map, I'm not sure if that's because DfT forgot it (given that it is a minor issue as far as the GW franchise is concerned, although very important locally) or whether they assessed it and found Narberth tunnel was too tight (in which case I wouldn't be supprised if the cost of clearing that route could be almost as much as the rest of the GW IEP clearance programme put together).

Eighthly – if I were a ROSCO with a large number of 125 mph stock (180s, Voyagers, 91s etc), I may be a little concerned about their long term prospects, since we could be seeing a surplus by the end of the decade – such stock may not be the cash cow that we would have assumed a few years ago.

I am extremely concerned that most of the 91s won't find work once IEP has arrived in about 2020, which in my view would be a terrible waste. More 180s (perhaps even all of them) are supposedly going to end up with Grand Central but I do wonder whether the prediction (I think by one of the Modern Railways coloumnists) that there will be Voyagers cut up before the last Pacer is gone is still possible. My guess is, if that does happen it will probably not be whole sets, but driving vehicles with the intermediate trailers used to lengthen other sets (VT has had a basically useless 2-car set for some time, if other franchises do similar some might be scrapped).

Tenthly – maybe ordering trains similar to the Oxford/ Swansea/ Bristol order means that the operator will be able to swap units on busy summer weekends, to ensure that everything heading to Cornwall is nine coaches during the school holiday weekends (i.e. it’s not leaving a microfleet)?

But what about the busy summer weekends in south Wales? And Cardiff-Swansea all the time?

Wait a minute. This is a serious proposal!? I assumed it was a joke that just kept on popping up, mainly because it's preposterous.

I believe bidders for TPE are permitted to use 442s in some shape or form. Whether one of the bidders is proposing loco-haulage of them I do not know.

 

[PHILIPE]

158s being the ideal unit for a stopping service with the slow end doors...

158s were not very popular when they had work in some parts of the Cardiff Valley Network round about 2003-2005 due to their slow doors on services stopping at so many stations and only a short distance between stops in many cases.
They have worked on the Barnstaple Branch in the past also.

 

[387star]

Bedwyn commuters must be fuming the line won't be electrified and they lose the direct commuter service to Oondon although presumably retaining a HST?

Yes Reading to Gatwick should be South West Trains in my opinion but only once electrified would this make sense. Reading to Gatwick has long been due na improved service.

Regarding making trains accessible a FGW 150/2 has emerged from the works with a new passenger information system (won't be activated yet) a new toilet module a new wheelchair ramp new door sounders and improved led lighting throughout oh and new flooring

I hear little of other operators undertaking such work in time for 2020 ie East Midlands Trains and Arriva Trains Wales.... Though ATW are refreshing some of their 150/2s which look quite smart. However Livery change remains slow... Sorry off topic

 

[northwichcat]

I believe bidders for TPE are permitted to use 442s in some shape or form. Whether one of the bidders is proposing loco-haulage of them I do not know.

See above quote.

There's no much else TPE bidders can take on for extra stock (pre-2020) unless FGW chose to release some 16xs and it doesn't sound like they are. Grand Central appear to have secured the FGW 180s once they get released by FGW.

 

[bnsf734]

Bedwyn commuters must be fuming the line won't be electrified and they lose the direct commuter service to Oondon although presumably retaining a HST?

Post #199 above mentions a new hourly Paddington -Exeter semi-fast service formed of 9 car IEP. Logically Bedwyn would be served by this service.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Yes Reading to Gatwick should be South West Trains in my opinion but only once electrified would this make sense. Reading to Gatwick has long been due na improved service.

If Gatwick's proposal for major expansion is given the go ahead after the general election, then the whole issue of train services to Gatwick will be up in the air and will require major improvements. The Reading-Gatwick services will be affected by that too.



.

 

[irish_rail]

Baseline B&H AT300 proposal is hourly Exeter - London semi-fast (typically 2 hr 29 min). Bi-hourly Penzance - London (hourly up early morning / hourly down late afternoon) with Plymouth - London in the gaps (Exeter - London 2 hr 9min stopping Tiv, Taunton, Reading). The semi-fasts will have a 10 min connection at Exeter into the Plymouth/ Penzance fasts.

Semi-fasts would be 6 x 9-car units (heavy Wiltshire loadings). Penzance is 6 x 5-car with 4 x 2 x 5-car (8 units) on the Plymouth cycle and extra 4 x 5-car Plymouth portions on the Penzance trains. So 18 x 5-car and 6 x 9-car for base service plus maintenance. Torbay extensions and extra evening / morning Frome will be one more 5-car (likely to be swapped with 9-car on lightly used semi-fast diagram).

Or the DfT may say no...

Ok, regarding the unit allocations, I get the 6 9 cars on pad-ex semi fasts (a waste by the way), but am struggling to work out what the plans are for the Padd - Ply and Pad - Pnz services. Are all trains to penzance and Plymouth doubled up?

 

[sprinterguy]

Ok, regarding the unit allocations, I get the 6 9 cars on pad-ex semi fasts (a waste by the way), but am struggling to work out what the plans are for the Padd - Ply and Pad - Pnz services. Are all trains to penzance and Plymouth doubled up?

The post suggests that all Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance trains will be 10 cars between Paddington and Plymouth. There, those trains that go forward to Penzance will split, and 5 cars will work forward over the Plymouth to Penzance section once every two hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The post suggests that all Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance trains will be 10 cars between Paddington and Plymouth. There, those trains that go forward to Penzance will split, and 5 cars will work forward over the Plymouth to Penzance section once every two hours.

Depending on loadings this seems quite sensible to me.

 

[jimm]

5-car IEP is 315 seats, so slightly more than half an IC125 but taking a class 175 as a 'conventional DMU' you'd get 310 seats in a 5-car formation (one 2-car set and one 3-car set). If you made a 5-car 175 with three intermediate cars and two driving vehicles it'd be 325 seats. So the extra length of the carriages in an IEP is roughly speaking enough to compensate for the kitchen and 125mph crumple zones in a 5-car set.

The route through to Penzance was always included on the map of IEP route clearance, even when IC125s were to remain the main fleet for that route with IEP ending at Exeter. I seem to recall the cost estimate for the work was in the hundreds of millions (but not billions). However, Pembroke Dock was not included on the map, I'm not sure if that's because DfT forgot it (given that it is a minor issue as far as the GW franchise is concerned, although very important locally) or whether they assessed it and found Narberth tunnel was too tight (in which case I wouldn't be supprised if the cost of clearing that route could be almost as much as the rest of the GW IEP clearance programme put together).

I am extremely concerned that most of the 91s won't find work once IEP has arrived in about 2020, which in my view would be a terrible waste. More 180s (perhaps even all of them) are supposedly going to end up with Grand Central but I do wonder whether the prediction (I think by one of the Modern Railways coloumnists) that there will be Voyagers cut up before the last Pacer is gone is still possible. My guess is, if that does happen it will probably not be whole sets, but driving vehicles with the intermediate trailers used to lengthen other sets (VT has had a basically useless 2-car set for some time, if other franchises do similar some might be scrapped).

But what about the busy summer weekends in south Wales? And Cardiff-Swansea all the time?

I believe bidders for TPE are permitted to use 442s in some shape or form. Whether one of the bidders is proposing loco-haulage of them I do not know.

One could very well say that a high-capacity HST has slightly more seats than the HSTs did when first built - so what? And part of the extra length in an IEP is providing cycle stowage and extra luggage space on what is designed to be an intercity train, so not sure what your point about a 175 is, when we already have a five-car intercity train to make comparisons with in the shape of the Class 180, built using the same basic bodyshell as the 175, which seats 280 people and has a whole coach of first class, a feature which appears to be missing from the 175s.

I know you're obsessed with Pembroke Dock but one train each way for a few summer Saturdays is, as you say, a minor issue in the context of the GW franchise, especially when that train is provided in large part to help meet local demand, not for travel from England to Tenby, so not hard to suggest that in the long run a local solution to South Wales's summer Saturday needs should be found through the Wales franchise.

Similarly on the South Wales main line, I think there is every chance that acquisition of emus will allow a beefing up of the ATW or whoever else it is by then's semi-fast service in three years' time - indeed it would probably be downright odd if the opportunity to provide more capacity that way was not taken.

And Cardiff-Swansea does not need an hourly 630-plus seat express train 'all the time', though given the location of the new depot at Maliphant, it will probably get a few more of them at either end of the day than it would have done if Hitachi had chosen a site in Cardiff instead.

 

[Rhydgaled]

And Cardiff-Swansea does not need an hourly 630-plus seat express train 'all the time', though given the location of the new depot at Maliphant, it will probably get a few more of them at either end of the day than it would have done if Hitachi had chosen a site in Cardiff instead.

Maybe a 630 seat train won't be needed all the time, but alot more than 315 seats are needed. A choice of 315 or 630 seat units leaves an awkward suituation if, as I suspect, loadings are between 400 and 500 passengers on many services. Given the numbers of units ordered, I'm afraid that the TOC will provide a single 5-car when 400-500 passengers want to travel. Another problem is if the TOC is unable to meet peak capacity requirements into major cites other than London since the peak is at a similar time wherever and all the strengthening units look like being needed in London at that time.

 

[sprinterguy]

Depending on loadings this seems quite sensible to me.

I would hope that it'd be possible to strengthen certain key trains to/from Penzance throughout based on seasonal demand, but in general I agree that it makes sense.

 

[Rhydgaled]

not sure what your point about a 175 is, when we already have a five-car intercity train to make comparisons with in the shape of the Class 180, built using the same basic bodyshell as the 175, which seats 280 people and has a whole coach of first class, a feature which appears to be missing from the 175s.

The poster was claiming the 5-car IEP is equivelent to a conventional 6-car DMU. I assumed 'conventional DMU' meant a unit designed to do what a DMU ought to be doing, rather than 125mph intercity units with large crumple zones.