FGW Franchise

[CC 72100]

There will be 22 5-car IEPs and 7 9-car IEP for Devon and Cornwall. Should be interesting!

Fear confirmed

 

[swt_passenger]

Regarding Reading to Basingstoke. I see this will get EMUs when is the timescale for electrifying this ? Am I right this is connected to the Southampton to Coventry electrification scheme to help freight??

No, Reading - Basingstoke was moved and is now part of "Thames Valley EMUs", as people have mentioned about half a dozen times since the enhancements plans were amended last year...

It will still be a building block for south coast to midlands electrification eventually, but it has been removed from that project.

 

[The Ham]

22 x 5 coach sets would be an indication that at least some services could be split on route.

 

[northwichcat]

22 x 5 coach sets would be an indication that at least some services could be split on route.

Indeed. I'm sure that was part of the thinking behind 5 car sets for both Great Western and East Coast.

 

[CC 72100]

22 x 5 coach sets would be an indication that at least some services could be split on route.

Where though?

I'd be very worried about 5-car trains through Cornwall.

 

[sprinterguy]

http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/...-centre-of-great-western-franchise-extension/

The new units will feature larger fuel tanks and up-rated power packs to allow it to negotiate the steeper gradients.

Up-rated power packs? Is nearly 3000hp not deemed to be enough for a 5-car train? hock: Even the 9-car sets already ordered will be packing more power than the current HST sets (With one more passenger vehicle, but less the weight of two power cars).

 

[swt_passenger]

Where though?

I'd be very worried about 5-car trains through Cornwall.

How about if both portions run through, with the first taking the major calls and the rear taking the 'all stations' a few minutes later.

(A bit like the way the SWT services 'split and follow' from Southampton in the evening peak. The reverse happening in the up direction - what I'd call 'catch up and join'...)

 

[RPI]

Where though?

I'd be very worried about 5-car trains through Cornwall.

Plymouth maybe for Newquay, newton Abbot for Paignton

 

[jimm]

http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/...-centre-of-great-western-franchise-extension/

Bit missing from that story is a line in the Hitachi announcement about an option for 30 more trains, which looks like it may cover sets for Hull Trains, the proposed London-Edinburgh open-access, and some GW strengthening...

Full announcement

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitach...f-new-at300-trains-for-the-south-west-1133384
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where though?

I'd be very worried about 5-car trains through Cornwall.

In the winter? With 320 seats per train? And there will be an improved local service anyway, so don't think there is any need to worry about capacity. Having five-car sets allows you to shuffle stuff around more easily than complete HSTs, which is the only option now, so on summer Saturdays there will be stock available from other routes that can be brought in for the day to operate plenty of 10-car sets.

 

[The Ham]

Where though?

I'd be very worried about 5-car trains through Cornwall.

If there are a few extra daily services then the total number of seats, even with some services being 5 coaches long, could remain the same between London and Cornwall as there are at present. However with new services from Cardiff the number of seats within Cornwall would be much higher over the day (basically with the 9 coach class 800's having the same number of seats as 2x5 coach class 800's and 18% more seats than a HST, that would work out at about 177 seats on the new trains for every 100 seats on the current HST's).

If services were to split options include:
- Exeter with some more direct services between London and Torbay
- Exeter, Plymouth or Truro to run shorter trains beyond (where capacity allows) to make better use of the total number of units
- Plymouth or Par with the long distance services running the 4 trains per day to/from Newquay (which frees up a DMU unit to be used elsewhere)
- Truro with some direct services between London and Falmouth

 

[WatcherZero]

Up-rated power packs? Is nearly 3000hp not deemed to be enough for a 5-car train? hock: Even the 9-car sets already ordered will be packing more power than the current HST sets (With one more passenger vehicle, but less the weight of two power cars).

Supposedly they would provide time savings on HST timings so need to keep the speed up even in tougher terrain and not let their gains under the wires be eroded. 5 min time saving for exeter, 6 for Plymouth and 14 for penzance while operating as diesel.

 

[CC 72100]

Plymouth maybe for Newquay

Does Newquay need an 'express' London train all year round? From my experiences as a passenger, I can't help feeling that for much of the year a 10-coach train splitting at Par would lead to 5 overcrowded coaches Par - Penzance and a very lightly loaded 5 coaches to Newquay.

We're not going to know how things will be set out from an operational and timetable perspective for sometime, but in the meantime I could understand how Cornish long-distance passengers could feel a little anxious about these plans without the further details and assurances.

 

[FenMan]

Running the North Downs Line as a diesel island cannot be a long term solution. The 165/166s that would be freed up by electrification would deliver significant value elsewhere particularly as, currently, they have quite a few useful years of service left in them.

As battery-tech is nowhere near being viable for the line and wiring places like Guildford and Reading-Wokingham is a long way off, will a 3rd rail infill be approved sooner rather than later?

(I appreciate the cost challenges regarding the remote locations of some of the sub-stations that would be needed between Guildford and Reigate).

 

[The Ham]

An alternative way for services to split would be to run a 2x5 coach train from London to Exeter where one portion splits and heads to Torbay the remaining portion then joins up with a 5 coach service from Cardiff, in doing so the number of seats in Cornwall is still higher than at present whilst still having a service which splits.

 

[CC 72100]

In the winter? With 320 seats per train? And there will be an improved local service anyway, so don't think there is any need to worry about capacity. Having five-car sets allows you to shuffle stuff around more easily than complete HSTs, which is the only option now, so on summer Saturdays there will be stock available from other routes that can be brought in for the day to operate 10-car sets.

I agree with the flexibility aspect, but it's not just summer saturdays that HSTs leave Plymouth southbound full and standing. Or even just the summer...

It will be interesting to see what the 'improved local service' means. Does it means longer trains? Does it mean more trains? Does it mean better quality trains? (You can see why locals may prefer to take the HST for 'local' journeys as opposed to standing on a 150/1)

As I said in my previous post, it would good to see some of the details as the majority of the fleet for Devon and Cornwall on the face of it being 5 coaches could sound a little concerning. I think the devil will be in the detail.

 

[59CosG95]

and loco-hauled 442s are proposed as an interim measure for TPE.

Perhaps the 67s have a use after all!

 

[jimm]

Running the North Downs Line as a diesel island cannot be a long term solution. The 165/166s that would be freed up by electrification would deliver significant value elsewhere particularly as, currently, they have quite a few useful years of service left in them.

As battery-tech is nowhere near being viable for the line and wiring places like Guildford and Reading-Wokingham is a long way off, will a 3rd rail infill be approved sooner rather than later?

(I appreciate the cost challenges regarding the remote locations of some of the sub-stations that would be needed between Guildford and Reigate).

On this one, probably best to wait for the due-any-day-now Network Rail electrification strategy...

 

[sprinterguy]

Supposedly they would provide time savings on HST timings so need to keep the speed up even in tougher terrain and not let their gains under the wires be eroded. 5 min time saving for exeter, 6 for Plymouth and 14 for penzance while operating as diesel.

Fair enough - If they can get the extra power out of the engines then they might as well, particularly if it improves journey times: I was just surprised that up-rating them has been suggested as necessary to achieve this, when you consider that 750hp Voyager engines (which work over the same Devon gradients, though admittedly with an engine on each vehicle) were down-rated to 700hp, and the MTU power packs being provided for the class 800s are a step up again from that to begin with.

 

[po8crg]

I wonder if the up-rating is actually a design with four engines per five-car unit, rather than the three of the class 800.

Also, will they end up as 800/3 (800/1 and 800/2 will presumably be the nine-car and five-car variants) or 802? To be continued..

 

[sprinterguy]

I wonder if the up-rating is actually a design with four engines per five-car unit, rather than the three of the class 800.

No, the press release from Hitachi specifically states that these AT300 trains will have "engines that operate at a higher power output", rather than additional engines per train.

I think (though I am "nae engineer") that you'd have to lose one of the pantograph driving vehicles in order to fit a fourth engine to a 5-car set, as otherwise with current collection equipment and transformer as well as a diesel engine you would end up with a very heavy vehicle. There might not even be sufficient space to fit the diesel engines and associated systems with the electrical equipment in place.

 

[The Ham]

Does Newquay need an 'express' London train all year round? From my experiences as a passenger, I can't help feeling that for much of the year a 10-coach train splitting at Par would lead to 5 overcrowded coaches Par - Penzance and a very lightly loaded 5 coaches to Newquay.

The issue with Newquay is that the DMU which runs that service isn't as heavily used as other DMU's. Given that we are awash with higher speed trains which can run that service and potentially not enough slower speed DMU's the freeing up of a unit may bring benefits beyond the extra cost associated with running a lightly loaded between Par and Newquay.

It's less likely to cause overcrowding on the Par - Penzance section if there are going to be double the services in Cornwall, even if there isn't many extra services between London & Cornwall.

 

[RPI]

Most of the overcrowding in Cornwall is local traffic and not long distance so the extra local services will go a long way towards relieving that

 

[fgwrich]

http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/...-centre-of-great-western-franchise-extension/

Fear confirmed

My thoughts exactly. The idea may be to split and join en route, but only 7 9 Car units and 22 5 Cars - It sounds to me to be all too close to both 'Operation Princess' - Shorter trains but increased frequencies which didn't work out to be, and the same issues that Midland Mainline ended up with in ordering a fleet of 4-car and 9-car before over time reducing them up to six seven-car sets (222 001-222 006) and 17 five-car sets. They may still be 5 & 7 car sets but better than 4 & 9 cars...I can almost see the overcrowding when a 5 car turns up at Truro already.

Up-rated power packs? Is nearly 3000hp not deemed to be enough for a 5-car train? hock: Even the 9-car sets already ordered will be packing more power than the current HST sets (With one more passenger vehicle, but less the weight of two power cars).

Uprated from a 900 HP engine already. So it will pretty much end up like a Japanese Voyager HST replacement then. :-x

The facebook comments about creating more onboard customer facing staff are interesting too - Which makes me wonder, have VTEC managed to get what they want on the IEP option of having an at seat service for First Class and a Shop or Buffet type thing, While FGW has had to have the DfTs preferred option of At seat for FC and a Trolley for Standard? This coming after the failure of the At seat trolley on FGW which led to the creation of the Mini Buffets. Great. :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think a larger Eurostar/TGV style standing buffet would make sense. Yes, it's a waste of some seating capacity, but on very busy trains it's an open standing area and one that many are happy to choose to stand in.

 

[sprinterguy]

Uprated from a 900 HP engine already. So it will pretty much end up like a Japanese Voyager HST replacement then. :-x

Near enough 940hp, in fact. Uprate them very much and passengers will essentially be sitting above the equivalent power of a class 20. hock: It's quite astonishing how far modern internal combustion efficiency has developed in the intervening decades so that you can now fit a power unit with such a large output beneath the floor of a carriage. Let's hope that they'll be a bit quieter than your typical class 20!

 

[jimm]

My thoughts exactly. The idea may be to split and join en route, but only 7 9 Car units and 22 5 Cars - It sounds to me to be all too close to both 'Operation Princess' - Shorter trains but increased frequencies which didn't work out to be, and the same issues that Midland Mainline ended up with in ordering a fleet of 4-car and 9-car before over time reducing them up to six seven-car sets (222 001-222 006) and 17 five-car sets. They may still be 5 & 7 car sets but better than 4 & 9 cars...I can almost see the overcrowding when a 5 car turns up at Truro already.

And what time of day would this be at Truro? You all seem to make out that HSTs are arriving into Plymouth from Cornwall full and standing morning, noon and night, all year round. Which they obviously are not.

Beef up the local service - which is a fair bet even if we don't have all the precise details of the changes for 2017 and, to go by the announcements, December 2018 will bring - go to an hourly service on Paddington-Penzance, which would seem reasonable if you can use a five-car portion west of Plymouth at quieter times - please remember there are big gaps and not very regular intervals in the current HST services out of Penzance towards London right now and just two morning trains the other way - throw in assorted XC services at either end of the day and I think you will likely end up with a perfectly decent higher-frequency service across the board, offering much more capacity for Cornwall, without wastefully sending a procession of 630-plus seat trains over the Tamar.

Portion working west of Plymouth is nothing new. Until HSTs arrived, detaching and attaching the first class coaches and restaurant car at Plymouth was a regular feature on the London-Penzance service.

And did you see my previous post about the option for more sets that is in the deal First Group and Hitachi are discussing - they won't need 30 sets (of unspecified length) for Hull Trains and their open access London-Edinburgh trains, if those ever happen, so more GW sets as well would seem likely if they do take up that option.

 

[freetoview33]

The direct award secures an operator for the franchise for the 3 and a half years from September 2015 (with an optional 13 period extension at the Secretary of State’s sole discretion)

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-franchising-great-western

 

[iantherev]

An hourly service from Paddington to Penzance even if some of the trains are only 5 car in Cornwall will be a considerable upgrade on the current timetable where the alternative is a 2 car 150 at present.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I wonder if the up-rating is actually a design with four engines per five-car unit, rather than the three of the class 800.

Also, will they end up as 800/3 (800/1 and 800/2 will presumably be the nine-car and five-car variants) or 802? To be continued..

I suspect 800/3, if the only modification is the power packs.

On a sadder note, what HSTs will still be running post-2020 at this rate?

 

[jopsuk]

at this rate? The main HST fleet post 2020 will be the ScotRail "Seven Cities" fleet.