FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[bb21]

Depends on the effectiveness of the local MP. My current MP gets results, my previous one was more useless than a chocolate fire guard.

I don't see one persons experiences being sufficient to bring any action. Would need to build a case of multiple experiences.

A catalogue of past events showing repeated and consistent failures on the TOC's part should be sufficient to raise a degree of interest at the DfT, however you are correct that having a larger number of passengers suffering the same problems would make the case far stronger.

 

[bnm]

I am aware of others who have faced similar problems. I did converse with two people earlier this year who'd had Paddington gateline issues with restriction codes C4 and F3.

As far as I'm aware they got the same assurances I did and moved on. I may get in contact with them again.

If anyone else on here has faced the same issue, and has kept their correspondence with FGW/GWR, do please drop me a PM.

 

[furlong]

Even an isolated breach of the franchise agreement is still a breach that can be reported to the DfT for action. If your own efforts at getting the company to correct the ongoing problem informally have seemingly failed, invoke the formal procedure whereby it becomes the DfT seeking agreement on corrective action to avoid further breaches.

 

[island]

I very much doubt the DaFT will get involved with a case of a passenger who, they will say, is seeking to use loophole tickets to get around off-peak restrictions.

The theoretical legal steps to be taken by someone with money to burn would, I suppose, be to seek declaratory relief. One could in theory (and probably only in theory) take out an injunction against GWR restraining it and its agents from denying you access to trains for which you have a valid ticket. I cannot see much of a basis for damages. Yet another reason we need a proper rail ombudsman with proper teeth, like we have in financial services.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is then the hassle of tax and national insurance, more so if you are not registered for self assessments etc.

However as we know BNM is a regular travel maybe compensated in free travel vouchers would bypass tax issues?

Yes, vouchers are tax free - at the moment.

You could probably also get round the tax aspects by instead of claiming for the time as time, claim it as damages equal to the value of the time. Damages are, I believe, tax free?

 

[bnm]

I very much doubt the DaFT will get involved with a case of a passenger who, they will say, is seeking to use loophole tickets to get around off-peak restrictions.

How is using a ticket from Reading to Ashford International (return portion), for a journey actually made between those two stations, a loophole?

 

[NSEFAN]

It's ridiculous that some staff are unable to check the validity. I've had plenty of cases before where the barriers flag up a legitimate off peak ticket at "peak" times, and the barrier staff either know already that it's valid, or are unsure and check against a computer. It's clearly not difficult to check, so is it just an attitude problem on the part of one of the staff members?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's ridiculous that some staff are unable to check the validity. I've had plenty of cases before where the barriers flag up a legitimate off peak ticket at "peak" times, and the barrier staff either know already that it's valid, or are unsure and check against a computer. It's clearly not difficult to check, so is it just an attitude problem on the part of one of the staff members?

It would certainly seem that there is an incompetent member of staff (or more than one) with an attitude that they are always right and an unwillingness to do the appropriate simple research. If retraining doesn't work, are they even suited to the role?

 

[bradders1983]

Could it be possible that the OP's description has been passed around the staff and they are trying to be obstructive on purpose?

 

[Quakkerillo]

Could it be possible that the OP's description has been passed around the staff and they are trying to be obstructive on purpose?

If that's the case, and proof of it was found, then GWR & employees involved will be in big trouble with the DfT.

 

[bnm]

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories about staff deliberately being obstructive because I might be 'known'.

 

[bradders1983]

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories about staff deliberately being obstructive because I might be 'known'.

Sorry, only just read the thread this morning and you did make mention to online "threats" earlier in the thread so it seems a logical thing to think.

 

[najaB]

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories about staff deliberately being obstructive because I might be 'known'.

Agreed. Never assign to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

 

[bnm]

Sorry, only just read the thread this morning and you did make mention to online "threats" earlier in the thread so it seems a logical thing to think.

You are correct, but I never could determine any causal link back to rail staff directly involved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Correspondence with GWR is open again. One small mercy is that I've not had to start the ball rolling this time. True to his word the DSM at Paddington last evening ensured Customer Services contacted me.

An email was received at 9am from the same CS manager who dealt with the incident back in January.

So, here we go again...

I may post up some of the correspondence in due course. See what GWR have to say first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories about staff deliberately being obstructive because I might be 'known'.

I'm with you there, that it is somewhere between incompetence, arrogance and laziness on the part of the staff directly involved. Those attitudes seem unduly common on FirstGroup TOCs, sadly, which I ascribe to institutional issues from the top down.

 

[bradders1983]

You are correct, but I never could determine any causal link back to rail staff directly involved.

Fair enough. Good luck with all of this.

 

[jon0844]

I'm with you there, that it is somewhere between incompetence, arrogance and laziness on the part of the staff directly involved. Those attitudes seem unduly common on FirstGroup TOCs, sadly, which I ascribe to institutional issues from the top down.

I had a poor experience at the temporary ticket office recently at Paddington (a story I should share on here one day when I have time), and it was actually the supervisor (near platforms 1-5) that sorted things out.

There are definitely good and bad staff there. Mostly good, I'd say, but you never know who's going to be there when you turn up.

Which makes it a gamble that's unacceptable.

I too have been in discussions with GWR and while the responses were lengthy and personal, there was a lot of 'palming off' type talk that didn't really address the issue.

As such, it doesn't inspire confidence that staff on the ground are being properly trained.

 

[Jonfun]

I don't understand why they can't just produce a little booklet detailing each restriction code and a summary of what it means that any member of staff can carry with them to consult. Many revenue staff will have a ticket machine they can consult anyway but for those that don't it's unfair to expect them to know every restriction code off the top of their heads. You get to know the most common ones - and by far the best improvement to ticket design thus far has been actually printing the restriction code on there - but there'll inevitably the time when someone starts asking about an OPR from Hamlet to Tinytown Parkway with restriction code 7P which is probably not valid on the 0800, but actually has an exception for this one specific train because it goes via the loop instead of direct.

It's about giving staff the tools to do their job. And if it's a recurring issue, FGW management should really be looking at ways they can minimise the likelihood of it happening.

 

[island]

How is using a ticket from Reading to Ashford International (return portion), for a journey actually made between those two stations, a loophole?

I'm being facetious.

If it's not a loophole, it's probably "misusing arcane restriction codes to get around off-peak train rules that are in place to free up space for commuters in peak periods". :roll::roll::roll:

 

[NSEFAN]

I'm being facetious.

If it's not a loophole, it's probably "misusing arcane restriction codes to get around off-peak train rules that are in place to free up space for commuters in peak periods". :roll::roll::roll:

I think I see what you're saying, but it's not really misuse of a ticket. In the context of restriction codes, a ticket should either be valid or invalid. The morality of the fares set doesn't come into question as it should be pretty much binary. Saying that a ticket shouldn't be valid because it says off peak on it is like saying it shouldn't be valid "because it's too cheap" (and that has been said before by an employee of at least one TOC, I believe)

 

[tsr]

Saying that a ticket shouldn't be valid because it says off peak on it is like saying it shouldn't be valid "because it's too cheap" (and that has been said before by an employee of at least one TOC, I believe)

It's not a TOC, but I had that one on the Tube with breaking a transfer journey - "But it's cheaper than a Travelcard so you can't get off en-route". The problem was eventually solved by giving the station supervisor a full printout from the TfL website detailing the validity...

 

[furlong]

I don't understand why they can't just produce a little booklet detailing each restriction code and a summary of what it means that any member of staff can carry with them to consult.

The DfT might also be interested in enquiring what use staff are now making of the computers installed at gatelines presumably for their benefit.

I regularly see one at Kings Cross being used to display the OpenTrainTimes map (instead of an industry system)!

 

[LexyBoy]

Well this is very unsurprising. I've been disappointed recently to hear a lot more "off peak tickets are not valid" on my morning train too...

I think I see what you're saying, but it's not really misuse of a ticket.

I think what island's getting at is that GWR will see it as a misuse/loophole because it's being used on trains that they consider "peak".

There are much cheaper tickets which are unrestricted in the evening peak (sub-£15 for a CDR), if you're after a loophole.

 

[ainsworth74]

How hard is it to read and understand condition F3? I mean really it's perhaps one of the most simple restriction codes other than something like 8A!

Applicable days: Mondays to Fridays

Outward Travel

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 10:00, except:

09:29 and 09:50 from Hastings
09:32 and 09:53 from St. Leonards Warrior Square
09:56 from West St. Leonards
09:42 from Battle
09:58 from Wadhurst

Return Travel

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 10:00, except:

09:29 and 09:50 from Hastings
09:32 and 09:53 from St. Leonards Warrior Square
09:56 from West St. Leonards
09:42 from Battle
09:58 from Wadhurst

And I wouldn't expect a member of railway staff to know every restriction code (there are far too many) but surely it isn't unreasonable that if you do not know to look it up? It's not exactly hard! Avantix has them and if that isn't available all you need to do is ring up someone with internet access and have them point their browser at nationalrail.co.uk/f3 and it'll come straight up for them!

It's things like this that absolutely baffle me.

 

[FenMan]

I think I see what you're saying, but it's not really misuse of a ticket. In the context of restriction codes, a ticket should either be valid or invalid. The morality of the fares set doesn't come into question as it should be pretty much binary. Saying that a ticket shouldn't be valid because it says off peak on it is like saying it shouldn't be valid "because it's too cheap" (and that has been said before by an employee of at least one TOC, I believe)

If I wanted to save money travelling from Reading to Paddington and returning in the evening peak, I wouldn't be buying a ticket to Ashford International.

 

[Starmill]

How hard is it to read and understand condition F3? I mean really it's perhaps one of the most simple restriction codes other than something like 8A!

Or even A1

 

[furlong]

The use of restriction codes goes back many years - and it is the companies themselves that have opted to introduce ever more complex ones - they didn't have to! I can't really think of any reasonable excuse for a company to employ staff on gatelines seemingly without providing them with access to the knowledge and tools for checking ticket validities correctly whenever required. It is not exactly difficult (most of the time), and the codes are printed on a lot of tickets these days - sometimes even with a URL! If there is some truth in the stories reported, this would perhaps be what the company should be working to address under the watchful eye of the DfT.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And I wouldn't expect a member of railway staff to know every restriction code (there are far too many) but surely it isn't unreasonable that if you do not know to look it up?

The problem is that these sorts of staff think they know the rules and so won't look it up because they can't possibly be wrong. That's the mindset that's so challenging. There's nothing to look up because they're right, end of.

I saw the same issue on London Midland; if I'd had £1 for every time the guard announced "this is a peak train, tickets marked off peak are not valid" coming out of Euston on a teatime I'd have paid off a big chunk of my season ticket.

 

[richw]

I guess the TOCs and their staff think nobody has travelled from beyond London?

 

[bnm]

Latest is an invite to a meeting with a Customer Services manager in Plymouth next week. An invite I've accepted.