Any such staff action would come perilously close to the legal offence of harrassment. Britrish Gas found out the hard way that such an offence can cost the company LOTS of money....
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FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.
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Any such staff action would come perilously close to the legal offence of harrassment. Britrish Gas found out the hard way that such an offence can cost the company LOTS of money....
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RailUK Forums
Hmm interesting course of action from GWR. Will they be covering your travel costs?
Do let us know how you get on!
fairysdad
Member
They'll provide him with an off-peak ticket which they'll then refuse him travel because it's not the right one, thus dismissing the case as he obviously couldn't be bothered to show up
I happened to mention future travel plans in correspondence with the Customer Services Manager. One of those trips is to Plymouth this Wednesday. CS Manager suggested we meet up if I had time. It's a leisure trip so I took the opportunity. I think much more progress can be made face to face than a back and forth email exchange. This meeting on Wednesday will help me decide what further action I should consider.
To address the point that several have raised about staff not checking the restriction code. Whilst initially denied travel by two gateline staff and their supervisor, that supervisor did eventually agree to my request to check. He did this using the TIS in the Excess Fares office. However, by the time this check was done, I'd missed my chosen train at 1645 and the next one at 1700. I'd wanted to be in Reading before a particular shop near the station closed at 6pm. My onward travel from Reading was to be the 1831 Pullman to Exeter. I instead decided, as I wasn't going to get to Reading when I wanted, to take that service from Paddington at 1803.
That I did after a discussion with the Duty Station Manager, who'd also checked the validity of my ticket, concurred, offered apologies, taken my details to forward onto Customer Services and promised to recount the incident to Paddington GWR Station Manager.
Is it Simon you're meeting? He dealt with my recent GWR issue and was quite helpful. Did use a lot of standard responses and buzz words, and making out my problem was quite unique (they always are!) but at least it was in depth and not an attempt to just palm me off.
They'll provide him with an off-peak ticket which they'll then refuse him travel because it's not the right one, thus dismissing the case as he obviously couldn't be bothered to show up
On this point, all my travel over Christmas and New Year will be on CrossCountry Advances. None of which are '& Connections'. Including my trip to Plymouth on the 23rd. Plans to travel on the diverted GWR HSTs into Marylebone and Waterloo have been cancelled. As has a Pullman trip in January when the new menu comes out.
I am not giving any more money to GWR unless absolutely unavoidably necessary. So no inter-available tickets.I'm fortunate that I can pick and choose my work assignments. These will be chosen in the New Year around transport options that, wherever possible, see none of my money going to GWR.
Of course, losing my custom will have no effect on GWR's bottom line. However, as the customer, it is the one bit of action I can take in the short term.
Medium to long term depends on GWR's response to this latest incident and the one I faced later the same evening with the BTP - about which I'll post in another thread in due course, once I've heard GWR's take on what I experienced.
I have grown frustrated with their customer service. speak to Twitter, Station staff or the call centre and get 3 different responses to what correct policy is.
My railcard expired in July- I haven't used rail since. In recent months I've used a lot of Megabus, £5 Redruth to London Victoria taking around 7.5 hours will keep me off the trains for as long as that fare is available. If the Megabus times don't work I've enough money left over for 2 nights accommodation and still cheaper than the train.
My railcard expired in July- I haven't used rail since. In recent months I've used a lot of Megabus, £5 Redruth to London Victoria taking around 7.5 hours will keep me off the trains for as long as that fare is available. If the Megabus times don't work I've enough money left over for 2 nights accommodation and still cheaper than the train.
A cordial, informative, and productive meeting with the GWR Customer Services Manager this morning in Plymouth.
There seemed genuine contrition from him on behalf of GWR about my experiences at Paddington gateline and at the hands of a Train Manager last Tuesday (a second incident the same day in which BTP were involved unnecessarily - may post about that on RailUK at some point).
The incidents have already been discussed at a high level within GWR, and I was left with the impression that a further round table meeting, to include a GWR Director and Paddington's Station Manager, will be happening once reports have come in from line managers of the staff involved.
I am still somewhat cynical however about any long term progress with Paddington gateline. All the issues I faced back in January are still happening despite the reassurances and promises I got back then. I sensed a strong desire from the CS Manager to see these issues eradicated, but he did say it was like trying to turn the Titanic. I remain concerned that other passengers are, and have been, unnecessarily delayed or overcharged because they take what the gateline staff say as gospel.
The CS Manager is writing up a formal response to me and has already promised one goodwill gesture. I am however not taking that as a drop hands offer for either issue I faced last Tuesday. I will be keeping my options open to restart dialogues with both my MP and London Travelwatch in 2016. And possibly the DfT/ORR.
Will using those avenues achieve anything? Maybe not. Maybe my lone voice won't carry enough weight. But I can but try.
I'll keep you posted.
There seemed genuine contrition from him on behalf of GWR about my experiences at Paddington gateline and at the hands of a Train Manager last Tuesday (a second incident the same day in which BTP were involved unnecessarily - may post about that on RailUK at some point).
The incidents have already been discussed at a high level within GWR, and I was left with the impression that a further round table meeting, to include a GWR Director and Paddington's Station Manager, will be happening once reports have come in from line managers of the staff involved.
I am still somewhat cynical however about any long term progress with Paddington gateline. All the issues I faced back in January are still happening despite the reassurances and promises I got back then. I sensed a strong desire from the CS Manager to see these issues eradicated, but he did say it was like trying to turn the Titanic. I remain concerned that other passengers are, and have been, unnecessarily delayed or overcharged because they take what the gateline staff say as gospel.
The CS Manager is writing up a formal response to me and has already promised one goodwill gesture. I am however not taking that as a drop hands offer for either issue I faced last Tuesday. I will be keeping my options open to restart dialogues with both my MP and London Travelwatch in 2016. And possibly the DfT/ORR.
Will using those avenues achieve anything? Maybe not. Maybe my lone voice won't carry enough weight. But I can but try.
I'll keep you posted.
What! All that is required is providing staff with a list of validity codes that show what is and what is not valid out of Paddington in the peak. I do despair at this privatised railway sometimes.
He says he is waiting on the line manager reports. I suspect the line manager at Paddington might be the problem and the information being passed by the line manager(s) to the gateline staff regarding ticket acceptance.
If it is one gateline person that could probably stem to that person misinterpreting information, if its multiple gateline persons then I would say the problem is the manager(s)
If it is one gateline person that could probably stem to that person misinterpreting information, if its multiple gateline persons then I would say the problem is the manager(s)
100andthirty
Member
I think you will be regarded very highly by GWR management because, a) you are factual, and b) are prepared to invest time to resolve the problem. I do know people who work in high places in GWR and First Group, and they do want to run a good service so will care about your complaint.
Personally, I think the main issue here is the impossibility of anyone remembering all the restrictions and the exceptions to them. Moreover, the systems nominally there to help staff are far from easy to use and often the text provided on those sytems is in something that's a long way from 'plain English'. When we have the comparative luxury of reading and debating the meaning of some of the ticket rules on this forum over hours or days, staff on the gateline have seconds to judge if they are not to delay lots of people.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
For the barrier staff, a simple bit of training:
If you don't know it, look it up.
If you still don't understand it, ask for assistance from someone more senior rather than outright refusing. Make it *your* job to ensure that permission is obtained, not the passenger's.
Not so hard?
I made the suggestion today of a little booklet issued to gateline staff with the restriction codes and their text, relevant to journeys from and through Paddington, listed within in alpha-numeric order. More and more tickets have the two character code printed on them so it would take but a moment to cross reference.
Far quicker than taking the ticket under discussion to the Excess Fares office and inputting origin and destination into the TIS. The TIS is set up to sell tickets and validity checking is a bit of faff.
However such a booklet should not be used as a replacement for proper training. Where you have staff with the power to deny travel those staff need to be absolutely certain they are right when doing so. Winging it, fobbing off, making up the rules, are all totally unacceptable.
Far quicker than taking the ticket under discussion to the Excess Fares office and inputting origin and destination into the TIS. The TIS is set up to sell tickets and validity checking is a bit of faff.
However such a booklet should not be used as a replacement for proper training. Where you have staff with the power to deny travel those staff need to be absolutely certain they are right when doing so. Winging it, fobbing off, making up the rules, are all totally unacceptable.
It's not just Paddington, one of my colleagues regularly gets excessed on a valid ticket travelling from Didcot to Worcester via the Cotswolds. He gets the money back and an apology but that isn't the point is it? He even has a letter to say the ticket is valid but some TMs don't agree!
This thread has been very useful for me as a novice to all the ticketing complexities.. Through some delving on brfares.com I've found that a CDR ticket from my local station at Pangbourne to a south London station near my parents carries a C4 restriction, which seems to allow return travel on peak fast services from Paddington. Normally for that journey I would just buy an off peak TravelCard, for about the same price, which has the restriction on those return trains. I might give it a try next time and see how I get on with the staff at Paddington!
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bb21
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I don't think it is quite as simple as that.
As I alluded to in another thread, some stations seem to have a local culture that is not condusive to, well, let's just say "changes".
It's a good suggestion but it just won't have any impact on staff who won't be told, as bb21 suggests above. However, my radical view is that staff who can't do their job properly and are damaging customer confidence should be fired. Sorry it's tough, but if it was a driver not following safety rules I'm sure everyone would be happy to see them gone. Just because it's not a safety issue doesn't change the principle.
MarlowDonkey
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Is it really that difficult? The concept that Paddington needs to understand is that their fast no, slow yes approach to evening peaks only applies where the journey starts at Paddington or Central London.
If they really want to enforce that and not have exeptions, they could revert to what British Rail used to do in the 1960s and only make a limited range of tickets available. Thus the only "via London" tickets available from Pangbourne would be London Terminals or Travelcard. To go further, split ticketing would be compulsory.
The hard bit is in staff admitting to themselves they don't know... It is a fault many of us have so its understandable in a way, but maybe need to train a prompt "If questioned by the customer, look it up and show it".
100andthirty
Member
That was the point I was trying (badly) to make; supported 100%
I may have said it already in this thread, but one of the causes of "confusion" (being generous!) to my mind is that, for some time it was a blanket restriction regardless of the ticket held, with the table of barred trains appearing at the top of the section for each ticket type in the Fares Manuals. (There were also blanket restrictions relating to the use of Network Railcard and Gold Card discounted tickets, and the erstwhile Network Awaybreak and Stayaway tickets prior to fares complification).
It's only relatively recently that said table was moved from there to individual restriction codes, but it's entirely plausible that this change wasn't briefed out at the time.
Having said that, the restrictions are generally implemented correctly in journey planners, so there's not really an excuse for not checking if in any doubt.
It's only relatively recently that said table was moved from there to individual restriction codes, but it's entirely plausible that this change wasn't briefed out at the time.
Having said that, the restrictions are generally implemented correctly in journey planners, so there's not really an excuse for not checking if in any doubt.
Whilst not relevent to my case, was there no easement for long distance Saver tickets back when the restrictions were supposely across the board?
Someone travelling from Inverness to Swindon on a Saver for example would find it difficult to avoid Paddington between 1600-1900.
Someone travelling from Inverness to Swindon on a Saver for example would find it difficult to avoid Paddington between 1600-1900.
VauxhallandI
Established Member
It's interesting how it seems to be easier to learn things that constrict the passenger than those that make it more flexible for the passenger.
Inverness-Swindon (Super) Off Peak Return tickets, formerly known as (Super) Saver Return (and retaining the codes SSR & SVR) are valid on any train from Paddington (and to Paddington on the return leg).
You are right; there is a rule applicable to all long distance SSR/SVRs, where both origin & destination are outside the (former) 'Network' (SouthEast) area and travel is via London, that restrictions may only apply from origin to London on the outward journey, and from London on the return journey. No restriction applies out of London on the outward journey, nor into London on the return leg.
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Staff at Paddington are very variable (as is common at gatelines), a good one told me that he was trying to explain to a colleague how you can't assume Off Peak tickets are not valid at certain times, and you have to check. She refused to accept what he was saying. With people like that, who refuse to listen to their own colleagues, there is always going to be potential for problems.
No way would people be able to get away with that at many workplaces; I'd expect to get the sack if I made up my own rules and refused to listen to colleagues! The rail industry needs to do much more to ensure all (not just most) staff are acting appropriately.
Or, at the very least, you'd be expected to check with management to see who is right.
There are many Off Peak tickets valid on that service, taking that example.
If the gateline staff are unable to check a particular restriction, and the train will shortly depart so there is no time to send them to the ticket office, anything other than letting the passenger through is unacceptable.
The culture - among some staff, by no means all - of 'assume the passenger is not valid' needs to be eradicated, and if any staff refuse to give the benefit of the doubt, they should be told to find a new job! (I would expect to be told that, if I refused to follow instructions at my workplace, so why are they any different?)
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Yes, if you thought a colleague was giving you wrong information, you'd check, not assume and refuse to listen!
The culture of making up rules and making assumptions is, while only applicable to a minority, too widespread in the rail industry and I am glad that some people are taking the time to try to get such attitudes removed from gatelines. Some people fear travelling by rail because of the - admittedly small, but very real - possibility of a confrontation with someone who makes up their own rules, sometimes aggressively, and makes threats or denies people travel, and not everyone is able to assert themselves against such individuals. They need to be told to buck their ideas up or work elsewhere, quite frankly.
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