FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.

[crehld]

I'm sorry but you cannot expect everyone to know the ins and outs of ticketing (especially with an obscure ticket like that)

I have some minor simpathy for this view. If you think it's hard for staff, then how is the average passenger supposed to know! The issue here was FGW said they trained their staff at Paddington on this specific ticket, so obscure or not the staff should have known about the detail of it. The reason it happened again suggested that training has not taken place (in which case FGW lied) or training has taken place and staff wilfully and knowingly continue to flout ticket validity riles and instructions from their management.

I assume you were rude to him as well as it sounds like you were from the fact you've called him a muppet on here.

What's the basis for this assumption?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But if the ticket says off peak, has no restriction code and he's trying to travel at peak what do you expect?

Peak is defined by the ticket, not whatever time a member of staff thinks it is. In other words what is off peak for one ticket might not be for another. So the passenger was travelling at off peak times. This is a basic ticketing principle which staff should know, even if they don't know the specifics of the actual restriction code.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly, so don't go out of your way to get tickets printed with avantix machines from Didcot (so then you get the restriction code).

Simple.

The ticket held was valid. Where it came from, what machine it was printed with, or whether or not it had a restriction code printed on it is totally relevant here. Simple.

 

[talltim]

bnm, was your correspondence from the FGW big cheese copy-pasted from an email? It's got one word spelled wrong twice and a grammatical error, and that's only from a quick skim read.

 

[jon0844]

Give staff at Paddington a laminated card that shows what tickets are valid by their code. How long to create that? Simple A-Z list with 'valid' or not written against the code. Show ticket, see code, check, let through (or not). Simple old school tech solution.

They don't even need to know the full restrictions in detail, just what it means at that station, at that time.

 

[yorkie]

Give staff at Paddington a laminated card that shows what tickets are valid by their code. How long to create that? Simple A-Z list with 'valid' or not written against the code. Show ticket, see code, check, let through (or not). Simple old school tech solution.

They don't even need to know the full restrictions in detail, just what it means at that station, at that time.

How many are there? The complete list was at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf but is now removed.

There are almost certainly a 3-figure number. Admittedly many of them will only apply for journeys that never involve Paddington, but it would be tricky to be absolutely certain which ones they are.

So you could end up with a huge lot of laminated cards.

And if the restriction code isn't printed on the ticket, you still need to look the fare up! If you are going to look it up, you need access to a device that will be able to access something like brfares.com (and hope it's not been changed since the last official fares change - in general you'll be ok!) which will also tell you what the restriction codes mean, so laminated cards won't really help.

What training do FGW give? Not enough I think is the answer.

A forum member who works on the gateline for SWT informed me that it was made it clear to him that if he is not certain, you let the person through. You can always look it up later so you know for next time (if practicable). Is that FGW's policy? It sounds not. And if not, it's a fault with management, rather than the individual staff.

 

[bnm]

bnm, was your correspondence from the FGW big cheese copy-pasted from an email? It's got one word spelled wrong twice and a grammatical error, and that's only from a quick skim read.

Copy and pasted, yes. Just some personal details removed. The person concerned does appear to have a problem with 'experience'.

 

[richw]

Exactly, so don't go out of your way to get tickets printed with avantix machines from Didcot (so then you get the restriction code).

Simple.

How do you know what ticket type and how it was printed, as I don't see where it's been mentioned, unless you were there?

BNM this is ridiculous it's still happening.
How is the memos sent out in fgw land?
My experience of communications are a minority of staff don't read them. Posters get ignored, emails not read, some staff only take on board if told face to face.

 

[jon0844]

How many are there? The complete list was at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OffPeak.pdf but is now removed.

There are almost certainly a 3-figure number. Admittedly many of them will only apply for journeys that never involve Paddington, but it would be tricky to be absolutely certain which ones they are.

I didn't realise there were that many, but perhaps you could just publish the most common ones or those that someone within FGW deems the most likely to be presented? At least these can be easily checked, and any other restriction code not on the card can be treated as valid by default (and up to the TM or RPI to check later on so as not to inconvenience the passenger or make them miss a train(s).

I don't know what equipment staff at Paddington are given, but some TOCs give a BlackBerry or iPad - any of which could have a simple app installed to check restrictions by typing in the code.

If a ticket is printed without the code, let them through as surely in a relatively short time (in railway terms!) all tickets WILL have the codes on them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm sorry but you cannot expect everyone to know the ins and outs of ticketing (especially with an obscure ticket like that)

Then surely the answer is for the industry to make it easy for staff to easily look up the restrictions of tickets presented to them?
The answer certainly is not for staff to make up rules on the spot that penalise people carrying valid tickets!!

 

[jon0844]

There does seem to be little point having restriction codes if staff can't (or won't) look them up.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Then surely the answer is for the industry to make it easy for staff to easily look up the restrictions of tickets presented to them?

Is it not the theory that there is still a national rail network with services franchised to individual operators? It's less than clear whether there is any marketing of the national network, but if there were, then there would be a decision to be made about whether a ticket from, say, Norwich, to, say Exeter at 3pm should be counted as peak or off-peak and whether the need to change trains and franchises in London should make any difference whatsoever.

In the absence of a pricing system which charges supplements at the level of an individual train and the presence of a system which enforces price differentials at ticket level, is it not obvious that those charged with enforcing ticket validation should be supplied with tools which document both the rules and the concessions?

 

[bb21]

But if the ticket says off peak, has no restriction code and he's trying to travel at peak what do you expect?

Hold up everyone who has similar tickets and contact NRE, taking up precious time and delaying other passengers?

Exactly, so don't go out of your way to get tickets printed with avantix machines from Didcot (so then you get the restriction code).

Simple.

No, no, and no.

Shocking attitude and ridiculous statement.

I sincerely hope you have nothing to do with revenue whatsoever, or you can land your employer in quite a lot of bother.

 

[RJ]

But if the ticket says off peak, has no restriction code and he's trying to travel at peak what do you expect?

Hold up everyone who has similar tickets and contact NRE, taking up precious time and delaying other passengers?

I work in a ticket office. It's my view that any memeber of retail/revenue protection staff worth their salt will understand that different restrictions apply to different tickets and check them as appropriate. I worked at a station with evening peak restrictions in the past. Everyone on the gateline knew that Cross London tickets had different or no such restictions.

Remember that people can buy tickets online. If they input their journey as leaving Didcot at 10 and leaving Dartford at 16:30, passing through Paddington at 17:30 then it will sell them an Off Peak ticket. Everything goes swimmingly until someone at Paddington tells them they can't travel. What is the passenger meant to do, accept being overcharged or inconvenienced and say no more?

That said, I acknowledge that the industry obfuscates Off Peak restriction information, even for its own staff - but this is being addressed with it being made clear how to check on the new format of tickets. Currently, a trained member of staff can check with ease. Some choose not to, creating unnecessary problems.

The issue at hand is the mentality of the individual on the gateline.

 

[Mag_seven]

If the ticket validity is "embedded" (if that is the correct term) in the ticket "magnetic strip" (once again if that is the correct term), then why are the ticket barriers at Paddington not programmed to accept the ticket?

 

[island]

If the ticket validity is "embedded" (if that is the correct term) in the ticket "magnetic strip" (once again if that is the correct term), then why are the ticket barriers at Paddington not programmed to accept the ticket?

The ticket validity is not "embedded" in the magnetic strip. The strip encodes a very limited selection of data — someone who knows more than me will be able to specify better, but I know there is not enough room even to encode the ticket type unambiguously.

 

[Polarbear]

I've been following this thread for a while & empathise with the difficulties encounted by the OP. Despite ATOC "simplifying" the ticketing system, it's still a hugely complicated minefield.

Where I work, I would not expect anyone to make up rules "on the hoof" as it's a) just wrong, b) inconveniences the customer and c) brings the company into disrepute. That it continues to occur when a complaint has been made and dealt with doesn't really help the cause of the company.

That said, it's also not easy for the staff at the sharp end, given the huge number of variables (and as Yorkie indicated 100's of restriction codes to deal with).

What I do find strange is that the rail industry (ATOC take note) hasn't managed to come up with a simple IT solution? In this day & age, most of us have ready access to the internet & wi-fi so why is it not possible for gateline staff to be issued with i-pad's that can be used to look up things like restriction codes. If I can look up a restriction code on my mobile (and I'm no expert), I really can't see why staff cannot do the same?

For me, the main issue is the reluctance of a small number of staff to check the rules - there's no excuse for that.

 

[jon0844]

I've had problems with a phone network recently when trying to buy prepay handsets. The store staff refuse to sell them on prepay, despite having a price and it being advertised online as available.

I Tweeted the network, to be told that I can definitely buy on prepay if there's stock. Went back, showed the Tweet and got told it's out of stock (despite having been outside the store and not seen anyone buy one).

The second time (today) it's happened to a number of people, so I went to get a statement from the company via the press office. I was told that everyone can DEFINITELY buy the handsets on prepay and stores were all sent a bulletin earlier today, but what do you know - people are still being refused in store.

Store managers clearly want to hit targets for connections, so are willing to go against advice from head office and it's somewhat similar to FGW with people on the ground also thinking they can ignore what they're told as they know better, or perhaps thinking it's not correct that people should be allowed to travel in the evening peak with an off peak ticket.

 

[bnm]

I think your last sentence, jonmorris0844, could well be close to the truth.

I'm splitting at Didcot, and whilst I am actually travelling into Kent rather than using the F3 and C4 tickets to start/end short at PAD, I can well believe that many staff take exception to passengers saving a few bob.

I was asked on Wednesday what time I left Dartford. I answered, 'around half two and I've taken a break here at Paddington for a bite to eat'. What if I'd said, 'ticket is valid now so none of your business when I started my journey'?

 

[jon0844]

I bet these people think they're doing the railway a favour, as we're clearly trying to get one over them. Hence, ignoring the advice of 'useless management' who don't have a clue sitting in their plush offices miles away. In fact, I bet that's part of the problem - some staff not taking kindly to being told what to do by anyone.

I remember being told by a bus driver once that I couldn't use PlusBus, and when I pointed out that the bus operator accepts them and indeed to a sticker on his bus showing acceptance, he said he'd personally see to it that they stopped accepting them and that I should pay the full fare like everyone else!

I am sure in his mind he thought he was actually helping his employer. (And, oh the irony, when he was spotted on a bus with a full PlusBus livery on the outside some months later!!)

They might be in the minority (hopefully) but there shouldn't be ANY of them.

 

[Greenback]

I think you might well be right. I've seen front line staff ignoring instructions when they think they know better with my own eyes when I was working on the railway.

 

[fairysdad]

I remember being told by a bus driver once that I couldn't use PlusBus, and when I pointed out that the bus operator accepts them and indeed to a sticker on his bus showing acceptance, he said he'd personally see to it that they stopped accepting them and that I should pay the full fare like everyone else!

I wonder if that driver came from the company that doesn't (didn't?) accept the OAPs passes because "these services lose enough money as it is"...

 

[jon0844]

Given my regular posts/rants, I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn it was Uno bus.

 

[infobleep]

If rail companies don't want people to pass through a station at a set time then they need to make the ticket restrictions that it is the case. Surely there must be software that can work out all the permutations of tickets.

I understand it is very complicated and requires a lot of processing power but it surely can't be beyond the capabilities of computers these days? Perhaps someone can say yes it is and that's that.

 

[bb21]

We don't really need to spend lots of money reprogramming gates so that they can be smarter than they are currently. What we need is the right attitude from some staff. It doesn't have to cost anything. A free solution is available.

 

[jon0844]

The mag strip simply can't store enough info for the gates to work everything else. Smartcards wouldn't have any such problems, or shouldn't.

 

[Sprinter153]

Yes, some staff can be stubborn and bend the rules to their own satisfaction. Some are just poorly trained and genuinely believe that they're doing the right thing. However, there are those of us who really are conscientious, take the time to use our judgement and knowledge to deal with a situation professionally and take pride in our jobs, but it seems like some on here are judge, jury and executioner...

 

[RJ]

If a job is done the way it's supposed to be, people will be grateful and word will spread, not necessarily through regular internet posts.

A job done badly will attract complaints. I'd rather see (justifiably) upset customers release their anger through their keyboards than take it out on staff in person. It's lousy management and poor quality trainers which allow unequipped staff to be unleashed on their customers unsupervised. Public complaints might be the only way they find out about the problems their colleagues cause.

 

[bb21]

It's very difficult for the vast majority of staff who are a credit to their profession in a customer-facing role because it is always the unpleasant experiences that stick in your mind. I can vouch for the fact that most staff from all over the country are easy-going, lovely and a pleasure to deal with, but there are certain pockets of the network where there seems to be a cultural issue with many staff who work there: Sheffield ticket office being one, and FGW Thames Valley stations being the other off the top of my head. Having travelled extensively all over the country, I don't think I have experienced anything as bad as the rubbish served up at these places.

 

[bnm]

Yes, some staff can be stubborn and bend the rules to their own satisfaction. Some are just poorly trained and genuinely believe that they're doing the right thing. However, there are those of us who really are conscientious, take the time to use our judgement and knowledge to deal with a situation professionally and take pride in our jobs, but it seems like some on here are judge, jury and executioner...

I've met these staff you talk of Sprinter153. They're a credit to their employer. And when they go above and beyond I'm the first to be sending a missive full of praise to their employer.

So please don't think that I'm Judge Judy and executioner based solely on this thread.

 

[najaB]

It's lousy management and poor quality trainers...

As a professional trainer, I feel the need to defend my colleagues - there are some bad eggs but on the whole very few trainers set out to do a poor job. Usually we have to make the best of incomplete and/or conflicting information and there is rarely enough time or money to do the job properly. I know it's the case in my industry and I've had conversations with other trainers and suspect that it is universally true.

 

[jon0844]

But what if some people 'on the ground' actually dislike/distrust management? Perhaps they see management as the enemy, so when told how to do the job they get very upset and think 'what the **** does s/he know? Probably never done a hard day's work in his/her life' etc. The more they get told off, the more indignant they're going to get.

I can see that being the case, as well as the other point I made that someone might think that whatever the rules, someone shouldn't be allowed to do something because it's 'unfair'.