Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland - Timetables?

[The Prisoner]

I live in Chester and my children and I were keen to do the Ffestiniog line having done the journey starting at Porthmadog on the way back from Abersoch by car back in 2017.

I keep looking, but the new services only seem to allow online buying a tickets for that journey starting in Porthmadog? We had hoped to get TfW from Chester to Blaenau rather than the pointless drive to Porthmadog to double back. The website says tickets starting at Blaenau are available, but are basically a fudge of two singles and only available over the phone.

Am I being a bit thick or isn't most of the traffic going to come from the more tourist oriented Conwy valley end of the line given people coming in from the A55/N Wales/England?

Is the Bala Lake line recommended as an alternative?

 

[bramling]

I live in Chester and my children and I were keen to do the Ffestiniog line having done the journey starting at Porthmadog on the way back from Abersoch by car back in 2017.

I keep looking, but the new services only seem to allow online buying a tickets for that journey starting in Porthmadog? We had hoped to get TfW from Chester to Blaenau rather than the pointless drive to Porthmadog to double back. The website says tickets starting at Blaenau are available, but are basically a fudge of two singles and only available over the phone.

Am I being a bit thick or isn't most of the traffic going to come from the more tourist oriented Conwy valley end of the line given people coming in from the A55/N Wales/England?

Is the Bala Lake line recommended as an alternative?

It does seem to be the case that the FR has always been rather concentrated on the Porthmadog end. Facilities are Blaenau have always been rather spartan. One would indeed think the A55 corridor would contribute more, but it doesn’t seem to. To be fair, to get from Llandudno is a good hour by road, same from Llangollen. Porthmadog is a very popular tourist town, which to be honest I’ve never quite got as there isn’t actually a massive amount there. Dead in the evenings, and hardly bursting with hotels.

BLR is certainly worth a visit, but it’s nothing like the FR.

To be honest, if you’re going to make a day of it, it’s probably worth making the effort to drive to Porthmadog, unless there’s a specific fascination with the slate landscape at Blaenau. A walk across the Cob is always enjoyable, if nothing else.

 

[12C]

Is the Bala Lake line recommended as an alternative?

Unfortunately my experience of the Bala Lake last month was similarly awkward. Turned up with my 3 year old as a spur of the moment visit while camping nearby, we hadn’t pre booked. On arrival we found the ticket window boarded over, so asked for tickets in the cafe. Was told rather abruptly I should have booked in advance, that they no longer sold tickets at the station and that I would need to book a ticket myself using my phone!

If I didn’t have my daughter in tow I’d have told them my thoughts on this and walked out but as she’d been looking forward to a trip on the “chugga chugga choo choo train” all morning I faffed about for about 10 minutes on the website and booked it. Train departed I would say less than a quarter full in the middle of the school summer holidays. Utter madness.

 

[geoffk]

Unfortunately my experience of the Bala Lake last month was similarly awkward. Turned up with my 3 year old as a spur of the moment visit while camping nearby, we hadn’t pre booked. On arrival we found the ticket window boarded over, so asked for tickets in the cafe. Was told rather abruptly I should have booked in advance, that they no longer sold tickets at the station and that I would need to book a ticket myself using my phone!

If I didn’t have my daughter in tow I’d have told them my thoughts on this and walked out but as she’d been looking forward to a trip on the “chugga chugga choo choo train” all morning I faffed about for about 10 minutes on the website and booked it. Train departed I would say less than a quarter full in the middle of the school summer holidays. Utter madness.

I think most journeys start and finish at Llanuwchllyn, where if I remember correctly there is a ticket office, certainly a cafe. There's nothing at Bala station really but that will change when the new station in town is open.

 

[John Luxton]

But no preserved railway is a proper railway, if they were they wouldn't all close for winter (pedants need not point out Santa specials). They have always needed to focus on tourist/leisure markets, not as a means of transport, and they can only survive by doing so. If this method of operating gets them the most income/profit then so be it, or would you rather they risk financial difficulties so they match your definition?

I think we only have to look back to pre-preservation days and see that WHR only operated passenger trains seasonally for much of its short life and it was a very short season compared to that offered. I think Tal-y-llyn also either didn't operate or only operated a basic out of season service prior to preservation. I don't see a railway not operating every day as no different than a bus service which only operates on selected days - plenty of those around in rural areas.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2022 ==

I note the afternoon service from Blaenau, when it runs, doesn't connect with the mainline, which is a shame. I guess it's just been designed as an out and back trip without a thought for that.

I've booked a holiday at Coed y Bleiddiau for next year, the holiday cottage on the line which the FR stops at, on the strength of being able to get there by train. If that's no longer possible I'll have to cancel.

When I took my only trip of the year so on the FR at the end of July the train stopped at Coed y Bleiddiau to pick up two passengers. It didn't stop to drop anyone off on the way back thus I presume they were walking back? That being a Sunday the morning train was the only complete run that day. I don't think they were at the end of a stay as they did not have any luggage.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2022 ==

If they returned the FfR to a normal timetable with say 5 round trips per day meeting all the Conwy Valley trains, the price would likely need to go up, not down.

We may be in a position where the forced price increases mean heritage rail ceases to be viable at all. The FfR is the "big one" - the most famous in the world - if they suffer, countless others will have failed long before.

I think many of us who do not like the present arrangements would settle for two full round trips on the FfR daily Easter to early November. One in the morning which connects with Conwy Valley and one late afternoon which also connects.

The other three (or more) could be shuttles.

As for ensuring the shuttles don't run empty or below capacity operation could be based on a minimum number of passengers travelling.

Some may recall that for many years Snowdon Mountain Railway used to have printed on their timetables words to the effect that "No train would depart from Llanberis without a minimum of 25 passengers or the equivalent in return fares."

Though I have been very critical of the current operating model I am not against the idea of shuttles I am just against the loss of a normal service. Compromise is possible.

There could even be an argument for even shorter shuttles from Porthmadog to Minffordd and back behind a Hunslet would appeal to families wanting a short trip and who don't wish to spend much.

 

[12C]

I think most journeys start and finish at Llanuwchllyn, where if I remember correctly there is a ticket office, certainly a cafe. There's nothing at Bala station really but that will change when the new station in town is open.

I should have said this was at Llanuwchllyn (to be honest I couldn’t remember how to spell it!).

The ticket office is closed, I’m guessing permanently by the boarding up job they’ve done on the window and the cafe won’t sell tickets.

 

[John Luxton]

Unfortunately my experience of the Bala Lake last month was similarly awkward. Turned up with my 3 year old as a spur of the moment visit while camping nearby, we hadn’t pre booked. On arrival we found the ticket window boarded over, so asked for tickets in the cafe. Was told rather abruptly I should have booked in advance, that they no longer sold tickets at the station and that I would need to book a ticket myself using my phone!

If I didn’t have my daughter in tow I’d have told them my thoughts on this and walked out but as she’d been looking forward to a trip on the “chugga chugga choo choo train” all morning I faffed about for about 10 minutes on the website and booked it. Train departed I would say less than a quarter full in the middle of the school summer holidays. Utter madness.

My only post Covid visit to Bala was out of season last year as part of a BLS visit.

However, I did travel pre-Covid in 2018 and the ticket office was closed.

The cafe was not selling tickets - I was told to buy a ticket off the guard.

Perhaps you should have just boarded the train and offered to pay the guard?

I must admit I do not like booking tickets on a phone or even undertaking any transaction partly for security reasons. If I am entering card details I want to do it on my pc which is fully security protected.

I have no problems using a computer to make bookings and have been doing that for many, many years but I just refuse to faff around on a phone.

 

[geoffk]

I should have said this was at Llanuwchllyn (to be honest I couldn’t remember how to spell it!).

The ticket office is closed, I’m guessing permanently by the boarding up job they’ve done on the window and the cafe won’t sell tickets.

Didn't know that as I've not been for four years.

 

[John Luxton]

I live in Chester and my children and I were keen to do the Ffestiniog line having done the journey starting at Porthmadog on the way back from Abersoch by car back in 2017.

I keep looking, but the new services only seem to allow online buying a tickets for that journey starting in Porthmadog? We had hoped to get TfW from Chester to Blaenau rather than the pointless drive to Porthmadog to double back. The website says tickets starting at Blaenau are available, but are basically a fudge of two singles and only available over the phone.

Am I being a bit thick or isn't most of the traffic going to come from the more tourist oriented Conwy valley end of the line given people coming in from the A55/N Wales/England?

Is the Bala Lake line recommended as an alternative?

There is a carriage on the train for casual passengers but it is not well advertised. Blaenau and Tanybwlch are better starting points for those of us coming from north west England on day trips by TfW or car.

In the past I tended to prefer to board either at Tanybwlch or Blaenau on a day trip. If I was staying in the area I would board at Porthmadog.

Given the promotion of Blaenau as being an integral element of the UNESCO Slate Heritage Landscape much more effort should be put into promoting Blaenau as both a start and end point for journeys.

 

[12C]

My only post Covid visit to Bala was out of season last year as part of a BLS visit.

However, I did travel pre-Covid in 2018 and the ticket office was closed.

The cafe was not selling tickets - I was told to buy a ticket off the guard.

Perhaps you should have just boarded the train and offered to pay the guard?

I must admit I do not like booking tickets on a phone or even undertaking any transaction partly for security reasons. If I am entering card details I want to do it on my pc which is fully security protected.

I have no problems using a computer to make bookings and have been doing that for many, many years but I just refuse to faff around on a phone.

The member of staff in the cafe didn’t mention buying tickets from the guard so I’m not sure whether that’s still an option, she just said you had to book online, and if I wanted to travel I could do it there and then by visiting the website.

Indeed, I wasn’t happy either and as I say if I hadn’t had my 3 year old with me who was looking forward to it I’d have walked out, I didn’t find it a particularly customer friendly experience.

 

[John Luxton]

The member of staff in the cafe didn’t mention buying tickets from the guard so I’m not sure whether that’s still an option, she just said you had to book online, and if I wanted to travel I could do it there and then by visiting the website.

Indeed, I wasn’t happy either and as I say if I hadn’t had my 3 year old with me who was looking forward to it I’d have walked out, I didn’t find it a particularly customer friendly experience.

Perhaps you should have just boarded and offered cash? I am sure they would have accepted it rather than cause a scene?
They could refuse to accept it but then you could refuse to leave the train, but I am sure it wouldn't have come to that as well all want an easy life.

 

[12C]

Perhaps you should have just boarded and offered cash? I am sure they would have accepted it rather than cause a scene?
They could refuse to accept it but then you could refuse to leave the train, but I am sure it wouldn't have come to that as well all want an easy life.

True, although I don’t usually have that much cash on me nowadays, I tend to use my card most of the time. If I hadn’t had my daughter with me I might have been more inclined to try that but with a young child you’re always thinking in the back of your mind how upset they’d be if you were turfed off last minute.

It was more just the principal of it which annoyed me, it’s the first time I’ve ever visited any tourist attraction willing to pay which has actually refused to sell me a ticket, when there is ample room. By the look of passenger numbers on the day they need to be as welcoming of people’s money as possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given how hard people are finding it to get volunteers I can get why they'd close their booking office and try to move as many people as they can to online, e.g. by offering a small discount.

However, for people who do rock up on spec, not selling at the cafe or on board is bizarre.

 

[John Luxton]

Given how hard people are finding it to get volunteers I can get why they'd close their booking office and try to move as many people as they can to online, e.g. by offering a small discount.

However, for people who do rock up on spec, not selling at the cafe or on board is bizarre.

One would think that flexibility should be the key word to just get as much cash in the till. I think the way to deal with such lack of flexibility is to vent one's spleen in Trip Advisor. For any attraction that values its rating I am sure they would not want to see negative comment.

 

[12C]

Given how hard people are finding it to get volunteers I can get why they'd close their booking office and try to move as many people as they can to online, e.g. by offering a small discount.

However, for people who do rock up on spec, not selling at the cafe or on board is bizarre.

Indeed, I completely understand many are struggling for volunteers and loads of lines have sold tickets from the shop/cafe on off season days for years. Tickets can simply be printed in the receipt roll.

As a family visitor myself I think heritage lines in North Wales including the FR/WHR are missing a trick by not being more accepting of walk ups. The area is prime camping/caravanning territory where a lot of tourists will be staying in remote areas with poor internet access, we had virtually no signal at the site we were staying at just outside Bala, certainly not enough to reliably pre book tickets over the internet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do FfR/WHR sell tickets for their "railtours" at the station if seats are available now, or do they still not?

I think we've actually got three different aspects to the debate, any of which can change without the others:
- The price, which relates to costs
- The timetabling model, i.e. "Takt" (ish) vs. "railtour style"
- The sales model, i.e. online-only or also in person (few would argue for not allowing prebooking)

With narrow gauge lines, standees are generally not allowed anyway, nor would you want to unless very short! So there is effectively compulsory reservation regardless of the above. For standard gauge lines, then you can add a fourth:
- Compulsory reservations vs none

and possibly a fifth:
- Allocated seats (optional or mandatory) vs free seating

They're all independent.

Edit: also add "hotel style" sales (i.e. per compartment) or "public transport style" sales (i.e. per seat).

 

[John Luxton]

Do FfR/WHR sell tickets for their "railtours" at the station if seats are available now, or do they still not?

Yes they do now sell from the ticket office though they still had the annoying Covid check-in gazebo outside at the end of July.

What I meant to add from that was when I travelled at the end of July apart from the gazebo check in - nobody checked the tickets going up to Blaenau or on the return. However, someone came around selling ice cream on the Blaenau - Porthmadog leg.

Just down the coast at Talyllyn just go and get a ticket from the office and board the train. TR still offering prebooking of compartments - but from my observation last Saturday virtually everyone was a walk up. I think only one compartment was reserved.

 

[paul1609]

Given how hard people are finding it to get volunteers I can get why they'd close their booking office and try to move as many people as they can to online, e.g. by offering a small discount.

However, for people who do rock up on spec, not selling at the cafe or on board is bizarre.

I think that the majority of heritage railways are now operating some sort of prebooking system even if its only for parties and catering packages. I think the days of having in a roll of tickets under the counter in the cafe have gone.
The complexity of the system needed to cope with such prebooking is quite daunting for some elderley volunteers to deal with and the level of such casual business probably wont support the employment of staff for whom you have to pay, increased min wage, holiday pay and pension contribution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that the majority of heritage railways are now operating some sort of prebooking system even if its only for parties and catering packages. I think the days of having in a roll of tickets under the counter in the cafe have gone.
The complexity of the system needed to cope with such prebooking is quite daunting for some elderley volunteers to deal with and the level of such casual business probably wont support the employment of staff for whom you have to pay, increased min wage, holiday pay and pension contribution.

One thing they could do is to provide a computer and printer for people to book on spec, though it wouldn't take cash.

(A "proper" TVM costing about £20K is probably a bit costly)

 

[paul1609]

One thing they could do is to provide a computer and printer for people to book on spec, though it wouldn't take cash.

(A "proper" TVM costing about £20K is probably a bit costly)

Unfortunately its more complex than that. Even at my relatively liberal railway as far as turn up and go business is concerned we take the view that we dont want passengers to stand and believe you me people who cant find a group of seats for their family will complain and be generally unhappy. Likewise we dont want to book them on an outward service knowing that the inward service is full and we have a coach party with 50 cream teas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately its more complex than that.

It's really not. If they can book on their home computer, a computer in a corner of your shop can do the exact same thing.

As for the family who is unhappy, more people will be unhappy if they show up and you refuse to sell tickets to any of them.

You're outlining an example of a railway which should close (or be privately funded) because it's not interested in customer service - basically a train set for those who work it paid for by those customers who will put up with things being bad. No business which cares more about its own convenience than that of customers deserves to survive.

 

[paul1609]

It's really not. If they can book on their home computer, a computer in a corner of your shop can do the exact same thing.

We close online booking at midnight the day before. The sort of system that books travel 5 mins ahead of train departures is probably beyond the capability of most heritage railways currently and may never be financially viable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We close online booking at midnight the day before.

That is very poor customer service.

The sort of system that books travel 5 mins ahead of train departures is probably beyond the capability of most heritage railways currently and may never be financially viable.

You what? Utter tripe. Eventbrite can do that, for instance. You don't even need to buy anything.

Unfortunately, your railway deserves to close.

 

[ymbongo]

That is very poor customer service.

Unfortunately, your railway deserves to close.

Harsh words but true.

Given that heritage railways are primarily tourist attractions - any that refuse to deal with the inevitable walk-up and casual visitors, because perhaps the weather has prevented them doing what they planned, or because they didn't know about the railway until they heard a whistle or saw a train, or any number of other reasons, absolutely gets no sympathy from me. These days it is so easy to extract money from people on the day, card or cash, and extend them a welcome, that it's inexcusable not to offer this, other than in the very unlikely event of a completely full pre-booked train.

I had friends staying close to Rhyd-ddu recently in the early summer who had been interested in a trip on the WHR without using the car that day, but the B&B owner told them they were pretty sure it wasn't possible to get on at intermediate stops, also that the timetable was very hit and miss and there may not be a train anyway, or if there was they might not get back... The website was not entirely helpful or forthcoming either (as has already been mentioned) and so in the end they couldn't be bothered. Shame. And whether the B&B owner was correct or not: if local businesses are starting to feel that the railway cannot be relied upon to provide a tourist experience, that doesn't bode well at all.

 

[Bikeman78]

On the latter point, their model seems to work on the basis of running full trains. For many this is going to devalue the experience straight away - it’s one thing travelling on a full train to work when there’s no choice, perhaps likewise in August being realistic people know a tourist railway is going to be full, but most of the time this experience *isn’t* what people expect, and certainly not if they’re now paying very high prices for it. For something like the Ffestiniog, for the prices now being asked I would expect a sole-use compartment in one of their heritage “lockup” carriages, provide that and I’ll happily pay. It seems the “experience” model may well turn out to be some way out of step with the types of rolling stock they have been building in recent years.

I went to the Severn Valley last week. It seems to be doing okay. Plenty of people still doing things the old school way. All three ticket windows open at Kidderminster with quite a queue but it moved fairly quickly. The first train at 10:00 train was very busy. Other trains not as full but still decent loads on all three sets of stock. Plenty of people getting on and off at Bewdley and Highley. The latter has a cafe and museum so it's bound to be popular.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that heritage railways are primarily tourist attractions - any that refuse to deal with the inevitable walk-up and casual visitors, because perhaps the weather has prevented them doing what they planned, or because they didn't know about the railway until they heard a whistle or saw a train, or any number of other reasons, absolutely gets no sympathy from me. These days it is so easy to extract money from people on the day, card or cash, and extend them a welcome, that it's inexcusable not to offer this, other than in the very unlikely event of a completely full pre-booked train.

Indeed.

And this example is even more foolish than not selling tickets at the cafe - you can't even pull out your phone and book on the day.

Not even compulsory reservation mainline trains like TGV prevent that, though I think you may come across it in some third world countries.

The railway under discussion is literally turning away custom. Not just asking them to book on their phone - but actually saying they won't accommodate them at all despite empty seats. It won't last long.

 

[bramling]

We close online booking at midnight the day before. The sort of system that books travel 5 mins ahead of train departures is probably beyond the capability of most heritage railways currently and may never be financially viable.

Didn’t most railways have exactly such a system in the form of a booking office?

 

[12C]

I agree fully with the above comments. It’s not rocket science and unfortunately a few lines are over complicating what should be a simple process, which worked perfectly well up until early 2020. Turn up, buy a ticket then have a train ride. Selling tickets from a cafe or shop shouldn’t be complex either or require special equipment, a ticket option can just be on the standard till and tickets printed on receipts.

Heritage railways are not Disneyland, there is no need to have to book tickets in advance unless the customer chooses to. As mentioned earlier a lot of people will choose to visit on a whim if they are staying in the area and to turn away such trade is insane. The vast majority of other tourist attractions have returned to 2019 normal and although you can sometimes save a little buying online you are perfectly welcome to turn up and pay on the day, and in my experience an lot of people, especially young families, choose to do this.

 

[the sniper]

It's really not. If they can book on their home computer, a computer in a corner of your shop can do the exact same thing.

I'd be a bit dubious about jumping on some public computer and putting in my payment details. But as a minimum, any railway should provide a sensible means by which people wishing to travel can pay.

 

[williamn]

Harsh words but true.

Given that heritage railways are primarily tourist attractions - any that refuse to deal with the inevitable walk-up and casual visitors, because perhaps the weather has prevented them doing what they planned, or because they didn't know about the railway until they heard a whistle or saw a train, or any number of other reasons, absolutely gets no sympathy from me. These days it is so easy to extract money from people on the day, card or cash, and extend them a welcome, that it's inexcusable not to offer this, other than in the very unlikely event of a completely full pre-booked train.

I had friends staying close to Rhyd-ddu recently in the early summer who had been interested in a trip on the WHR without using the car that day, but the B&B owner told them they were pretty sure it wasn't possible to get on at intermediate stops, also that the timetable was very hit and miss and there may not be a train anyway, or if there was they might not get back... The website was not entirely helpful or forthcoming either (as has already been mentioned) and so in the end they couldn't be bothered. Shame. And whether the B&B owner was correct or not: if local businesses are starting to feel that the railway cannot be relied upon to provide a tourist experience, that doesn't bode well at all.

Had the same recently on the Vale of Rehidol - the owner of our AirBnB has said the trains were no longer stopping at intermediate stations, and a poster at each station confirmed this. However an email to the railway confirmed they were open and the trains did indeed stop. This kind of mixed message isn't great at attracting custom! Appreciate getting slightly off topic... Oh and we used the trains to get around, to and from Aber and to and from Devils Bridge from our holiday cottage - it was both an attraction and a useful way of getting about - the two things are not exclusive.