Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland - Timetables?

[bramling]

Oh yes I have often gone to Tanybwlch in the car to go to the cafe. Yes the full line trip does put people off going to the cafe - a good point.

My objection to these experiences and the encouragement to prebook is that one might be booking a trip sometime in advance with no information about the weather. I was caught out at the end of last season - drove over to Caernarfon for a trip to Porthmadog. Weather atrocious, but I had booked it, and yes it was a free member's ticket - but I still felt bound to honour the booking and I had also ordered a Pullman Pamper Hamper as I like to make a contribution.

Parked up at Caernarfon, phone went about 40 minutes before departure to inform me that the line was flooded and trains were cancelled - but was informed I could still pick up the contents of the hamper.

I did and then had a miserable drive back to Liverpool. That really did upset me.

Yes, I know things can go wrong - but I would never choose to go out for the day during torrential rain and high winds. It cost me the round trip in fuel and the hamper £25.00 say £50 in all.

I wasn't a happy bunny. Hence my visits to FWHR have been limited this year 1 day of the WHR 100 Gala at Dinas and a return trip to Blaenau.

For over 10 years now I have gone to the Victorian / Bygones Weekend in October and had booked my accommodation for this almost a year ago.

Today I decided rather than a 3 day visit I would go over to Porthmadog on the Friday for one day then spend Saturday and Sunday at Llangollen Railcar Gala.

Fortunately I always book accommodation flexibly and making the change was no problem.

Basically I am voting with my feet until things change - I wont stop going but my regular visits, and they were very regular, are suspended.

Yes I think voting with feet is the only way to stop this. There’s plenty of railways who have reverted to normal.

We were in fact planning a few days in Porthmadog earlier this year. The weather put a dampener on our plans, but had the FR and WHR been operating normally we’d have still gone. We dropped the trip entirely, so that was a hotel booking cancelled for a local B&B, at least a day each on both railways missed, no spending in FWHR’s shop, cafes or Spooners, no several days of patronage for local restaurants (and perhaps the odd pub), no visits to any other local attractions, etc. Perhaps the Ffestiniog might remember that they are part of a wider “experience”…

 

[John Luxton]

, no spending in FWHR’s shop, cafes or Spooners, no several days of patronage for local restaurants (and perhaps the odd pub), no visits to any other local attractions, etc. Perhaps the Ffestiniog might remember that they are part of a wider “experience”…

The local shop issue is interesting - I usually pop into the Model Bakery at Blaenau on the way home to get some of their home made bread and some of the rather unique Kurdish pasties. I have only been in once this year and when the owner enquired where I had been I told him why. He told me other customers had said similar things.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I suspect the reason for Tanybwlch is quite simply that the model is causing people to think twice when they see the prices, so it only works by essentially offering a half product that people are prepared to (or are actually able to) pay.

To be honest this situation is pretty depressing considering the effort and determinations past generations put in to allow the railway to return to Blaenau.

Some people (unbelievable I know) only want to spend a certain amount of time on a train! They want the experience but only in manageable chunks, taking a half day scenic train ride then moving on for a half day somewhere else. The range of options currently offered by the FR/WHR allows for that without people having to plan too hard. You catch the named train, you have tea, you return on the same train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

I spoke to staff in Porthmadog about the current system recently. My impression is they are taking a low risk strategy to ensure the survival of the railway in a challenging environment. Other people have mentioned the problems. One I don't think has been mentioned is coal supply. According to the person I spoke to its not just the high price that is a problem, its receiving sufficient regular deliveries. The timetable in part is based on what they are confident they will have sufficient coal to run. They could run more diesel services but they are less popular.

Perhaps they could buy a large supply and store it, say underground, for safe keeping.

 

[nanstallon]

The only time I want to visit the FR or WHR is when they have a gala, such as the Bygones Weekend. Then, there is a reasonable chance of seeing and photographing normal looking trains, i.e. ones without silly headboards saying 'Woodland Wanderer' or suchlike. Also, knowing there is a proper timetable and trains on it won't be cancelled because not enough people have booked. I am not interested in theme parks.

But I appreciate that I am in a minority, and while I don't mind paying the price of a rover ticket for a gala event, people like me are not seen as the FR/WHR's bread and butter. It is not for me to tell Paul Lewin how to run the show, and if he and his colleagues prefer to run it as a theme park rather than a proper railway with timetables that is up to them.

 

[Llanigraham]

Much as I like the Ffestiniog, I’m not a great fan of their more modern stock, which I find increasingly bland. The older carriages, either open or compartment, are much better. Indeed their heritage first class compartments are wonderful. Ironically few people seemed to want to use them before the current nonsense started, which I presume was for no other reason than lack of toilet access. Like everything, railways should be offering a mix in order to cater for all tastes.

Remember that any new coaches have to be built to much more stringent modern standards than old coaches, so they aren't going to be the same.

 

[JGurney]

They are both heritage railways and attractions - why do posters here have to make a distinction?

I agree that a heritage railway is clearly a kind of attraction: I think those making the distinction are really distinguishing between a railway which offers only out and back trips ending back where one started and those which allow for journeys from A to B.

For my own part the distinction between those two is certainly significant. While I have hardly ever made out-and-back trips spending little or no time at the far end, and only occasionally made them with time at the far end before going back, most of my heritage railway journeys have been one-way, and if those become impossible I will sadly be making much less use of heritage rail in future.

These journeys have mainly been one of two kinds. Some were simply using the heritage railway because it was the most convenient way of getting where I wanted, most usually using the Ravenglass & Eskdale at the start or end of Lake District walking holidays, there being no bus service along the same route, or using the NYMR to get to/from Newtondale Halt at the start or end of hikes. Others arose when it was practical to use a heritage railway instead of a more conventional route, and while the heritage rail route was slower and more expensive it seemed interesting enough to be worth it. Examples have included getting to Alresford by the Mid-Hants Railway instead of a bus from Alton; Bridgnorth to London via the SVR to Kidderminster; Boscarne to Bodmin Parkway by rail rather than bus; Ambleside to London via boat to Lakeside, Lakeside and Haverthwaite train, bus to Ulverston, and trains to Lancaster and Euston; and back on topic Snowdon Ranger Halt to London via the Welsh Highland Railway to Porthmadog (returning from walking in Snowdonia).

In all the above, had the railways involved been providing only out and back trips starting at one end only, that would have been no use and so we would not have traveled by those routes. I am sufficiently interested in them, and want to support them, that when the opportunity arises I will often pay more to use a heritage railway instead of a more mundane way of getting where I want to go. I am not often willing to pay anything to be taken back where I started.

 

[WAB]

Many thanks for that.
I'm sure that the WHR had their very good reasons for the short time at Caernarfon in 2012 but it's meant that we haven't visited that area (by rail) since then.

The complexities of trying not to leave Porthmadog before people had woken up, having to pilot the train out onto the Cob and share the platform with the frequent FR, get a path over Cae Pawb, and on high days fit in an extra trip which doesn't get back too late, as well as operating the full line for less than a year prior to drawing up the 2012 timetable, are all very good reasons as you say. In 2019, many trains were given extra layover time at the termini to allow for more time to look around.

It seems odd to have spent so much on restoring the WHR to run such a sparse service (in particular trains across the entire line operating only two days a week).

Under the pre-Covid timetables, one return trip from each end was the extent of the timetable except on the busiest days. The two days a week operation has caused me difficulties personally, and Paul Lewin has mentioned that in retrospect they would have increased the number of days when the entire line service was operated.

The Harbourmaster train from Porthmadog for example carried at least six members of on board customer service staff (and I assume most of these were staff rather than volunteers) and includes an element of on train catering (bookable).

Most of them will have been volunteers. Pre-Covid, there would have been a guard (and possibly assistant/trainee), cook, and three buffet stewards.

 

[alansheppard77]

went on FR in may,useless timetable and far to expensive,WHR even more expensive

 

[DaveB10780]

Just been trying to plan a Ffestiniog Round Robin, One day circular journey only in either direction from any station on the route Shrewsbury, Machynlleth, Porthmadog, Blaneau Ffestiniog, Llandudno Junction, Chester, Wrexham, Shrewsbury and includes a single journey on the Ffestiniog Railway.

I wanted to travel this Friday and I wanted to start from Birmingham

GB RAIL ROVER GUIDE - Ffestiniog Round Robin

How to find rail rover and ranger tickets on the national rail network. Rover and ranger tickets are cheap tickets for rail travel

www.railrover.org

I could not find Ffestionoig train times and also how many trains do the full journey on their website. However I emailed the Ffestiniog Railway and thay replied next day saying that only one train will do the full journey this Friday leaving Bleanau FFestioniog at 12:20 arriving at Porthmadoc at 13:35. I still have no idea the timings of the Ffestionog service in the other direction.

Now because the Round Robin ticket is only valid on Transport for Wales services I cannot get to Bleanau Ffestiniog before 12:20 using Transport for Wales Services from Birmingham. I can do it using other operators via Crewe. Furthermore the Round Robin journey is not possible next week because of long term bus replacement on the Cambrian Coast line.

Try these links Timetable and this Train descriptions. On the second link click Calendar View on top left of the screen to see what runs each day. As far as I can see Tues, Wed (not all), Thu and Sat are when two trains run the full length. I was looking at this trip starting at Stockport and luckily I am able to get to Blaenau for the first train.

I also looked at the bus replacement and as far as I could tell the connection times were broadly the same and I reckon I could still do the round robin.

 

[DarloRich]

went on FR in may,useless timetable and far to expensive,WHR even more expensive

Thanks for that detailed critique. Could you expand upon it and offer a bit more detail?

For my own part the distinction between those two is certainly significant. While I have hardly ever made out-and-back trips spending little or no time at the far end, and only occasionally made them with time at the far end before going back, most of my heritage railway journeys have been one-way, and if those become impossible I will sadly be making much less use of heritage rail in future.

Again, at the risk of going blue in the face, what YOU want to do is not what MOST visitors want to do. It seems very hard for posters here to grasp that the railway has to position itself to attract as many people in the later group. MOST people want to chuff to the end of the line, have a brew and a cake and come back. MOST visitors aren't looking for one way trips ( unless perhaps the Snowdon Railway)

We dropped the trip entirely

to be clear: you dropped an entire weekend away because a steam train railway made you book tickets in advance? Whilst that is your prerogative surely you are cutting your nose of to spite your face. There is loads to do in the area. Surely the train is one day in a trip

i.e. ones without silly headboards saying 'Woodland Wanderer'

I assume you wouldn't dream of photting a main line steam special with a silly headboard!

But I appreciate that I am in a minority, and while I don't mind paying the price of a rover ticket for a gala event, people like me are not seen as the FR/WHR's bread and butter. It is not for me to tell Paul Lewin how to run the show, and if he and his colleagues prefer to run it as a theme park rather than a proper railway with timetables that is up to them.

It is good that you grasp this point ( and in an ideal world it shouldn't be one or the other) - but they aren't running a theme park. They are running a "proper" railway, just not in the way you want or approve of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

went on FR in may,useless timetable and far to expensive,WHR even more expensive

I've always been slightly underwhelmed by the FfR as well, I find a ride on the Conwy Valley a far better experience, and far cheaper to boot. The WHR(C) is an almost unique curiosity, though, feels very much like a Swiss narrow gauge mainline without the wires, so I'd say I preferred that.

 

[stuu]

The only time I want to visit the FR or WHR is when they have a gala, such as the Bygones Weekend. Then, there is a reasonable chance of seeing and photographing normal looking trains, i.e. ones without silly headboards saying 'Woodland Wanderer' or suchlike. Also, knowing there is a proper timetable and trains on it won't be cancelled because not enough people have booked. I am not interested in theme parks.

But I appreciate that I am in a minority, and while I don't mind paying the price of a rover ticket for a gala event, people like me are not seen as the FR/WHR's bread and butter. It is not for me to tell Paul Lewin how to run the show, and if he and his colleagues prefer to run it as a theme park rather than a proper railway with timetables that is up to them.

But no preserved railway is a proper railway, if they were they wouldn't all close for winter (pedants need not point out Santa specials). They have always needed to focus on tourist/leisure markets, not as a means of transport, and they can only survive by doing so. If this method of operating gets them the most income/profit then so be it, or would you rather they risk financial difficulties so they match your definition?

 

[DarloRich]

or would you rather they risk financial difficulties so they match your definition?

I think there is a group of poster here who want that!

But no preserved railway is a proper railway,

They are proper railways - they have to meet regulatory requirements to run. it isnt just messing about with trains.

 

[bramling]

to be clear: you dropped an entire weekend away because a steam train railway made you book tickets in advance? Whilst that is your prerogative surely you are cutting your nose of to spite your face. There is loads to do in the area. Surely the train is one day in a trip

Yes. The original plan was several days worth of mainly outdoor stuff, which the weather forecast had already messed up. I’d have still liked a day on each of the FR and WHR, but didn’t want to be tied down. It didn’t help that when discussing this with the better half, and looking at the prices being charged for one trip, the response was a word which is unprintable.

For us, the whole point of a visit to these railways is to be able to float around, perhaps go for a walk from an intermediate station, have something to eat in the cafe at Tanybwlch, take in the landscape at Ffestiniog, etc. Neither of us wanted to have everything planned to the minute before even leaving home and being glued to a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. The original plan was several days worth of mainly outdoor stuff, which the weather forecast had already messed up. I’d have still liked a day on each of the FR and WHR, but didn’t want to be tied down. It didn’t help that when discussing this with the better half, and looking at the prices being charged for one trip, the response was a word which is unprintable.

For us, the whole point of a visit to these railways is to be able to float around, perhaps go for a walk from an intermediate station, have something to eat in the cafe at Tanybwlch, take in the landscape at Ffestiniog, etc. Neither of us wanted to have everything planned to the minute before even leaving home and being glued to a seat.

Of course like with compulsory reservation mainline trains you don't need to visit a travel agent/booking office a few days before, you can just pull out your phone and book, though they do sell out.

The price is another issue and simply reflects how expensive operations have got. Without subsidy, the price is the cost of operation divided by the number of passenger miles (ish) minus donations, it's that simple. They're not a for-profit business, they're a charity.

 

[bramling]

Of course like with compulsory reservation mainline trains you don't need to visit a travel agent/booking office a few days before, you can just pull out your phone and book, though they do sell out.

The price is another issue and simply reflects how expensive operations have got. Without subsidy, the price is the cost of operation divided by the number of passenger miles (ish) minus donations, it's that simple. They're not a for-profit business, they're a charity.

It doesn’t help that the inflated price buys what I would regard as a significantly downgraded “experience”. Ironically I would regard a day ticket as an experience, not one out & back journey on a possibly very full train.

I’d regard it as a bit too risky going all the way there (4 hours drive from here) and there being the chance of not being able to get a ticket, or finding the availability is at an inconvenient time.

I could absolutely now imagine spending a week in Porthmadog and not going on either railway, which is rather sad.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Fish and chip shops (turn up and order, affordable prices, likely repeat custom) vs Michelin starred restaurants (book in advance, so expensive that you are only likely to go there once for the experience, or for a very special occasion). If railways are going to follow the Michelin starred restaurant business model then they need to be sure that that experience is up to premium price charged, and that there is a large enough supply of new customers with fat wallets to stay in business, especially with household budgets being squeezed as they are.

With many lines offering discounted, or even free, travel for staff/volunteers/society members/local residents, perhaps they perhaps they haven’t realised how unaffordable some have become to many potential visitors?

I have “done” the FR, SVR, NYMR, KWVR and R&ER already and, given the costs of visiting again, would be unlikely to revisit for just a pre-booked out and back trip. A trip on the train, getting off at an intermediate station, going for a walk, visiting a pub or cafe and coming back when I please is what I am after. Maybe I am on a minority, but there will always be people who want Spam fritters fried to order, to use the chip shop analogy again.

 

[stuu]

They are proper railways - they have to meet regulatory requirements to run. it isnt just messing about with trains.

Yes of course, but they aren't run as public transport enterprises was my point. They exist as attractions in the same way as a museum. Or theme park

I do agree that not being able to have the time to do something at the other end is a serious downside though, possibly with the exception of Blaenau Ffestiniog

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes of course, but they aren't run as public transport enterprises was my point. They exist as attractions in the same way as a museum. Or theme park

I do agree that not being able to have the time to do something at the other end is a serious downside though, possibly with the exception of Blaenau Ffestiniog

There is a reasonable cafe* opposite the station that has been there for yonks, first time I ever did the Valley I had a fry-up there. I wonder is it hurting them?

* Caffi Bont / The Bridge Cafe

 

[bramling]

Yes of course, but they aren't run as public transport enterprises was my point. They exist as attractions in the same way as a museum. Or theme park

I do agree that not being able to have the time to do something at the other end is a serious downside though, possibly with the exception of Blaenau Ffestiniog

I’m not sure the theme park or museum comparison entirely works for the “experience” model. Generally one doesn’t visit a theme park and be tied down to one single go on one ride at a very specific time. Or visit a museum and be told you can only view one exhibit once at a specific time, and then essentially booted off the premises to make way for the next lot of visitors. Indeed, most peer attractions like museums, stately homes and the likes have now largely dropped the pre-booking curated experience model.

It seems to me that the restaurant comparison is more valid, except that some of these railways seem to think they can now offer a chip-shop experience at Michelin prices. We will all now be told that trains have been filled over the last two summers, but how many people will have come away feeling underwhelmed and will be unlikely to go back or recommend to others?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you need to separate the booking model from the price, to be honest.

The price has gone up because the costs have spiralled.

If they returned the FfR to a normal timetable with say 5 round trips per day meeting all the Conwy Valley trains, the price would likely need to go up, not down.

We may be in a position where the forced price increases mean heritage rail ceases to be viable at all. The FfR is the "big one" - the most famous in the world - if they suffer, countless others will have failed long before.

 

[bramling]

I think you need to separate the booking model from the price, to be honest.

Yes this is a fair point. As I said elsewhere, I’m more than happy to pay up good, what I object to is being charged a fortune for what I find to be an objectionable day out.

We may be in a position where the forced price increases mean heritage rail ceases to be viable at all. The FfR is the "big one" - the most famous in the world - if they suffer, countless others will have failed long before.

Yet some of the more enthusiast-focussed railways seem to be doing okay, even at times thriving. I bet something like Severn Valley or East Lancs diesel gala would be pretty buzzing.

Perhaps the problem is that some of these railways have allowed themselves to go *too far* to the “family day out” model, in the process making themselves aloof to the bigger picture. Make yourself irrelevant to local people and enthusiasts, and perhaps don’t be surprised if support dries up. Pegging to one particular market isn’t a clever strategy, especially as it’s one which is rather susceptible to trends in behaviour, for example belts being tightened in response to rising living expenses, reversion to foreign holidays, some other attraction being flavour of the month, etc.

Heritage railways are increasingly the odd one out on all this now. Visit any stately home, castle or whatever, and generally the price hasn’t gone up massively, and apart from possibly the odd tub of hand gel, they are fully back to 2019. No pre booking - you pay on the gate, and have total freedom to roam around at leisure. This would seem to be what people are going to *expect* going forward, so if heritage railways choose to stick in the Covid era then more fool them, frankly.

 

[stuu]

Heritage railways are increasingly the odd one out on all this now. Visit any stately home, castle or whatever, and generally the price hasn’t gone up massively, and apart from possibly the odd tub of hand gel, they are fully back to 2019. No pre booking - you pay on the gate, and have total freedom to roam around at leisure. This would seem to be what people are going to *expect* going forward, so if heritage railways choose to stick in the Covid era then more fool them, frankly.

A stately home has a pretty much fixed cost regardless of visitor numbers. A railway has high fixed costs as well as high costs per customer, or for volunteer-run services, a need for more volunteers if there are more customers

I someone who was fairly senior at the WSR who said that galas attracted lots of people but they didn't spend any money. Diesel ones being the worst for that, often not even buying tickets for the trains

 

[notverydeep]

Under the pre-Covid timetables, one return trip from each end was the extent of the timetable except on the busiest days. The two days a week operation has caused me difficulties personally, and Paul Lewin has mentioned that in retrospect they would have increased the number of days when the entire line service was operated.


Most of them will have been volunteers. Pre-Covid, there would have been a guard (and possibly assistant/trainee), cook, and three buffet stewards.

Most of the heritage railways I've had experience off can usually cover Guard's duties with volunteers as operational roles are popular and this role tends to be a close second to footplate or signalling (control) work in its appeal to potential volunteers, but they have found that while some track and engineering work can be covered with volunteers, shop and catering roles are not popular and have to be covered with staff. I am thus impressed that the cook and on train buffet stewards can be covered with volunteers on the FR / WHR, though I would find doing these roles more interesting on train than in station cafés.

On the number of services offered, I can understand that planning for summer 2022 in the winter of 2021/22 was quite cautious about how coronavirus might continue to affect visitor numbers and preferences and you suggest that company realises that in retrospect more services might have viable than were planned for. Hopefully there will be an increase in 2023. It would be good to see more opportunities of people holidaying / camping around Beddgelert to use the Welsh Highland line.

One factor that hasn't been raised in some the comments about the Ffestiniog service in particular is the degree to which the WHR has abstracted passengers and revenue from the Ffestiniog, which must have been significant since reopening. Clearly many visitors to the area will only want to do one 'steam train' ride. Without access to the data on passenger loading and the numbers of visitors to the area, it is difficult to know how much service might enhanced in the future and remain viable. Yes it would be nice to see some more WHR services (perhaps a third train?) or the Tan-y-bwlch reversers extended back to Blaenau Ffestiniog, but it has got to make sense to those who know their market and potential market best.

Finally, if you want to travel on either of these lines and especially on both lines or for multiple trips (or if you are going to do a tour of several of the other nearby narrow gauge lines) becoming a member of either the Ffestiniog or the Talyllyn first is a no-brainer and will cut your costs significantly! It seems fairly simple if you plan at least four weeks ahead.

 

[williamn]

I note the afternoon service from Blaenau, when it runs, doesn't connect with the mainline, which is a shame. I guess it's just been designed as an out and back trip without a thought for that.

I've booked a holiday at Coed y Bleiddiau for next year, the holiday cottage on the line which the FR stops at, on the strength of being able to get there by train. If that's no longer possible I'll have to cancel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note the afternoon service from Blaenau, when it runs, doesn't connect with the mainline, which is a shame. I guess it's just been designed as an out and back trip without a thought for that.

I've booked a holiday at Coed y Bleiddiau for next year, the holiday cottage on the line which the FR stops at, on the strength of being able to get there by train. If that's no longer possible I'll have to cancel.

I'm sure it came up before that they've deliberately broken the connection because they were fed up with people complaining when it missed (either way).

 

[bramling]

I'm sure it came up before that they've deliberately broken the connection because they were fed up with people complaining when it missed (either way).

That would smack of complacency, but would fit in with the notion of wanting to focus on business from the Porthmadog end. It doesn’t help that there’s virtually nothing in the way of facilities at the Blaenau end, so people are going to moan if they’re stuck there for a couple of hours.

I do wonder if there’s some truth in the theory that the WHR has spread things too thinly in the area.

 

[williamn]

And fares such as this still exist

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks. Full details of all British rail fares shown, with built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

a return ticket that, in theory at least, allows travel back on any day within a month.

You say 'in theory' - is this fare valid?

 

[lyndhurst25]

You say 'in theory' - is this fare valid?

I don’t know.

(PM also sent)

 

[geoffk]

I hope to report back on the Pontypool & Blaenavon and the Brecon Mountain Railways next week - that is, unless events at Balmoral cause their plans to be cancelled.