FCC dispatch at Finsbury Park - safety issue?

[jon0844]

I know people must get annoyed when members of the public think they know it all, but I'm concerned about a certain member of dispatch staff who never looks between the CD and RA. This is the same person I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago.

I've observed him multiple times not checking the doors are safely closed and swapping directly from giving the CD to RA, and never even turning around. By contrast, the others step back and give a proper look in each direction - as they're supposed to.

This morning he did it again, and was further distracted by a woman who asked if the train about to go was to Moorgate. So, while effectively facing towards platform 2 (the train was on platform 1) he turned the key to OD, then a few seconds later to RA. He didn't even move his head at all.

So, I (perhaps stupidly) waited until the train had gone and confronted him by asking how he knew the train doors were safely shut and locked, and nobody was trapped. He told me he'd looked.

I told him he did not, and asked again how he could possibly know - explaining what he'd done and been seen doing, including talking to someone. He repeated that he'd looked, and denied he'd spoken to anyone. He then walked off.

Clearly I know what I saw, but can't do anything else with it being my word against his.

As my Moorgate train came in, I kept an eye on him again and this time he did an incredibly quick turn before giving the RA - totally pointless. I can't believe he wouldn't have at least then tried to do things properly, even exaggerating the check to try and prove a point to me.

Who could I report this to? Someone needs to go and monitor him as the only thing preventing an accident during rush hour is the fact that the train doors probably won't lock if someone gets something stuck.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes, someone should certainly check that all hazard lights are extinguished, all doors are closed safely etc before changing the CD to RA. There was a recent RED film along these lines (well, the PTI).

 

[220010]

You should report him to his Line Manager/Station Manager.

But he should be warned as comp managers are every where!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

One of the great pleasures of this forum is reading knowledgeable and informative replies to questions of interest. I'm sure many of us are grateful for the understanding we've gained from posts on here.

But this thread doesn't seem to be a question at all - it seems to me (and I hope I'm wrong) as if the OP is adjudicating on the working practices of trained professionals AND is conducting a personal critique of a specific individual. Neither would be appropriate on here.

But I haven't time to reply in any more detail - I have to rush off to tell a plumber how not to join pipes and a helcopter pilot how not to fly, a nurse how not to care for someone and an insurer how not to calculate risk then a few other things which I'm not trained, qualified, experienced nor authorised to do myself before I start publicising the work of a particular employee on a public internet forum.

 

[jon0844]

I haven't named him and think that anyone can tell that not looking is not safe. If you saw a highly trained airline pilot doing something very silly, would you keep quiet on the basis that you weren't qualified?

I've observed this gentleman on many occasions and am yet to see him look. He just doesn't do it, either forgetting or simply not bothering. What's bizarre is how thorough the other staff members are, suggesting it's a pretty major part of the job.

But, hey, even after I started my post with "I know people must get annoyed when members of the public think they know it all" I didn't expect a comment like this - but hey ho.

Maybe we can look back at this thread when we get another Huntingdon incident?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

One of the great pleasures of this forum is reading knowledgeable and informative replies to questions of interest. I'm sure many of us are grateful for the understanding we've gained from posts on here.

But this thread doesn't seem to be a question at all - it seems to me (and I hope I'm wrong) as if the OP is adjudicating on the working practices of trained professionals AND is conducting a personal critique of a specific individual. Neither would be appropriate on here.

But I haven't time to reply in any more detail - I have to rush off to tell a plumber how not to join pipes and a helcopter pilot how not to fly, a nurse how not to care for someone and an insurer how not to calculate risk then a few other things which I'm not trained, qualified, experienced nor authorised to do myself before I start publicising the work of a particular employee on a public internet forum.

In general I agree with you, but the rule book is quite specific in that between the Station Work Complete signal and the Ready To Start signal the train must be checked. It's black and white really, whereas each plumber may have their own method of joining pipes.

I do not think that the OP went the right way about doing anything at all. Acostting staff for something by a member of the public is unacceptable really. It is for the person's manager to decide whether or not action should be taken, not a member of the public.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I haven't named him and think that anyone can tell that not looking is not safe. If you saw a highly trained airline pilot doing something very silly, would you keep quiet on the basis that you weren't qualified?

In this situation it's quite easy to work out what should be done. In others, it isn't.(Heritage rail example coming up) For example I heard a story from another member of staff where a passenger complained that his train had passed a signal displaying a red aspect. This was just a normal person on a day out with his kids. The fact was he was wrong. The train was being handsignalled past. In that case he hadn't seen the green flag. So he was of the opinion that his train was in danger, and that the staff member didn't know what he was doing. You see my point?

 

[jon0844]

I'm really sorry I said anything at all - to the member of staff or on this forum.

I will therefore do nothing in case he gets in trouble and assume that FCC will ensure the safety of all passengers through their normal operating procedures. If something happens I can say 'I told you so' but if it doesn't, no harm done.

Now I'm a firm believer of the phrase 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing', but I'm not an idiot and can see when something is 100% wrong. But given people have strong opinions that it was the wrong thing to get involved, I'm happy for this thread to be locked and deleted.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't think anyone's said that the dispatcher is in the right. We've merely commented that perhaps the best course of action is to speak to FCC directly. I'll say it again: the rule book is quite clear that the train should be checked, and this is also reinforced in FCC's training materials. Therefore if what you say is true then the dispatcher did not carry out that dispatch properly.

 

[talltim]

One of the great pleasures of this forum is reading knowledgeable and informative replies to questions of interest. I'm sure many of us are grateful for the understanding we've gained from posts on here.

But this thread doesn't seem to be a question at all - it seems to me (and I hope I'm wrong) as if the OP is adjudicating on the working practices of trained professionals AND is conducting a personal critique of a specific individual. Neither would be appropriate on here.

why not?

But I haven't time to reply in any more detail - I have to rush off to tell a plumber how not to join pipes and a helcopter pilot how not to fly, a nurse how not to care for someone and an insurer how not to calculate risk then a few other things which I'm not trained, qualified, experienced nor authorised to do myself before I start publicising the work of a particular employee on a public internet forum.

Quite frankly that is rubbish.
A: Jon isn't telling the guy how to NOT do it.
B: Something not being your job doesn't preclude you from knowing how to do it and even knowing how to do it better than someone whose job it is to do it.

Jon probably didn't make the best move in going directly to the guy, but if, as an informed observer he feels that safety is being compromised then he should report it. Being trained, qualified, experienced and authorised is not a guaranty of doing it right.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

why not?

Because there are 2 serious matters (platform safety and someone's career) both of which stand to be affected. If the OP's concerns are founded in fact, then the appropriate action is to inform the Station Manager and, if warranted, the H&SE - in fact it would be irresponsible not to.
If those concerns were erroneous (as in ralphchadkirk's example) then he would not wish to have innappropriately and publicly accused someone of a serious omission, raised fears of safety and impuned an innocent party (and perhaps suffer egg-on-face).

There's every opportunity to discuss dispatch procedures without those risks - we can freely debate the practice. I think I'd made it clear that my reason was that it is not for the OP to adjudicate, which I believe to be a matter of fact. Conversely, we can welcome the OP's comments and observations.

Quite frankly that is rubbish.

No comment

. . . Something not being your job doesn't preclude you from knowing . . . .

But it may prevent the untrained and unknowledgeable observer from knowing HOW it is being done! I've seen some unusual (though not in the least unsafe) dispatch procedures which take more specific understanding to follow; I'd include two dispatchers on opposite platforms making observations for each other and relaying their confirmation across the tracks. Not obvious but not unsafe.

 

[Mr Spock]

I will therefore do nothing in case he gets in trouble and assume that FCC will ensure the safety of all passengers through their normal operating procedures. If something happens I can say 'I told you so' but if it doesn't, no harm done.

If you do not tell FCC management about your concerns then if something goes wrong I do not see how you can say "I told you so".

Reporting it on this forum would be meaningless.

 

[jon0844]

I wanted to know the best place to report it, so that something might happen and I won't just be fobbed off, or treated with suspicion (as has happened here) or an outright dismissal (like saying something to FCC on its forum with a 'thanks for your comment, now we're going to totally ignore what you said' response). Phoning or emailing customer services would be out, and who do I report to at Finsbury Park? Do I go to Hertford House in person? I don't have his name, just the time/location.

However, I'm being told on here that I shouldn't get involved and that I may have been mistaken (seems hard, given I witnessed it from about two metres away) and could unfairly have him lose his job, when he should of course be given a warning/training as required.

I really do wish I'd just be like most commuters who keep their heads down and don't get involved with anything.

 

[Mr Spock]

Perhaps you can just write to FCC HQ and mention that it appears that a member of staff at Finsbury Park is not dispatching trains properly - no names, no dates and no times need be mentioned.

Then you will have told them and it will be up to them whether they check or ignore as they see fit.

 

[jon0844]

Okay, in view of the fact that I don't want to have an incident considered to be preventable because I didn't say anything, I've located someone within FCC and emailed them to make them aware.

 

[scotsman]

If you have an issue with a staff member's conduct, you report it to their boss - not the immature thing and post it on here. What do you gain from posting it on here?

 

[jon0844]

Why is it immature? That doesn't make any sense.

How the hell do I know who his boss is, or where s/he is?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If you have an issue with a staff member's conduct, you report it to their boss - not the immature thing and post it on here. What do you gain from posting it on here?

Unfair, scotsman. With things like this it is hard to know where to report things to, and as Jon says, you are likely to get fobbed off by customer services. Credit where credit's due he hasn't named the person involved, the location, or the times. I imagine by posting it on here, Jon hoped somone would have contacts within FCC Ops. So I see no harm in posting it, but it's what happened between the two and what will happen that people have been commenting on.

 

[GB]

I think AJ would be the man to speak to on here. Doesnt he work for FCC as a dispatcher?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think AJ would be the man to speak to on here. Doesnt he work for FCC as a dispatcher?

Yes, I think Ajax103 is a dispatcher for them.

 

[TDK]

I know people must get annoyed when members of the public think they know it all, but I'm concerned about a certain member of dispatch staff who never looks between the CD and RA. This is the same person I mentioned in another thread a few weeks ago.

I've observed him multiple times not checking the doors are safely closed and swapping directly from giving the CD to RA, and never even turning around. By contrast, the others step back and give a proper look in each direction - as they're supposed to.

This morning he did it again, and was further distracted by a woman who asked if the train about to go was to Moorgate. So, while effectively facing towards platform 2 (the train was on platform 1) he turned the key to OD, then a few seconds later to RA. He didn't even move his head at all.

So, I (perhaps stupidly) waited until the train had gone and confronted him by asking how he knew the train doors were safely shut and locked, and nobody was trapped. He told me he'd looked.

I told him he did not, and asked again how he could possibly know - explaining what he'd done and been seen doing, including talking to someone. He repeated that he'd looked, and denied he'd spoken to anyone. He then walked off.

Clearly I know what I saw, but can't do anything else with it being my word against his.

As my Moorgate train came in, I kept an eye on him again and this time he did an incredibly quick turn before giving the RA - totally pointless. I can't believe he wouldn't have at least then tried to do things properly, even exaggerating the check to try and prove a point to me.

Who could I report this to? Someone needs to go and monitor him as the only thing preventing an accident during rush hour is the fact that the train doors probably won't lock if someone gets something stuck.

Why didn't you report this to the Daily Mail as well so the whole world knows - completely pointless post, if the dipatcher is not doing his job properly report him to his manager, if you do not know or do not know how to fins his manager you shouldn't be questioning the dispatchers actions. Completely out of order thread.

 

[jon0844]

Is this forum like the Daily Mail then? Why the hell would I go to the press?

I posted here because there are people who actually work in the industry and can give advice. I haven't posted a video on YouTube and gone to the media, or named the person and identified him.

If this forum is considered to be no different than going to the press, I better stop posting right now - and a fair few others better refrain too.

 

[Aictos]

I think AJ would be the man to speak to on here. Doesnt he work for FCC as a dispatcher?

Guilty as charged,

 

[Urban Gateline]

At least the dispatcher in this case was actually doing something! Today at Wimbledon on platform 7 and 8, the busiest ones, the station assistant was just sitting in his box and watching out, he never helped to dispatch any of the 8 or so trains that stopped and went during my 30min wait on the platform!

 

[Aictos]

At least the dispatcher in this case was actually doing something! Today at Wimbledon on platform 7 and 8, the busiest ones, the station assistant was just sitting in his box and watching out, he never helped to dispatch any of the 8 or so trains that stopped and went during my 30min wait on the platform!

Some stations have platform staff but they don't dispatch and are merely there to deliver passenger assistance, Hitchin is a prime example on the GN.

I don't know the local working guidelines for Wimbledon but it may be one reason why the station assistant didn't come out of his box.

Anyway back to the main reason for this thread, that is unsafe working and I'm sure that by not completing dispatch duties in a safe manner then it is a safety of the line incident.

Indeed the rulebook clearly states that:

6.1 Safety of passengers during train dispatch

Staff must be vigilant at all times during train dispatch to make
sure that:

• train doors are properly closed

• no one is trapped in the doors, for example by clothing

• it is safe to dispatch the train

6.4 Train safety check before giving the READY-TO-START signal

After you have given the STATION WORK COMPLETE signal, you must carry out the following train safety check before giving the READY-TO-START signal:

• train doors are properly closed

• nobody is trapped in the doors, for example by clothing

• it is safe to start the train.

 

[talltim]

If you have an issue with a staff member's conduct, you report it to their boss - not the immature thing and post it on here. What do you gain from posting it on here?

Can you not read? Its pretty obvious from Jon's OP that he wasn't 'telling tales' on this forum, but asking what he should do, whether to report it at all and if so who/where to.

Why didn't you report this to the Daily Mail as well so the whole world knows - completely pointless post, if the dipatcher is not doing his job properly report him to his manager, if you do not know or do not know how to fins his manager you shouldn't be questioning the dispatchers actions. Completely out of order thread.

How the hell is he supposed to know who the guy's manager is? And why does not knowing who the manager is mean that what the dispatcher does automatically becomes OK?

Note that I wasn't there. I don't know if the dispatcher was looking or not. I just find it wierd that people think that Jon is unable to watch to see if someone looks before dispatching simply because he doesn't work on the railway.

But it may prevent the untrained and unknowledgeable observer from knowing HOW it is being done! I've seen some unusual (though not in the least unsafe) dispatch procedures which take more specific understanding to follow; I'd include two dispatchers on opposite platforms making observations for each other and relaying their confirmation across the tracks. Not obvious but not unsafe.

And if something similar is the case then the dispatcher will be able to say that and everything will be OK

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Can you not read?

. . . . . . .


. . . . . . . How the hell is he supposed to know who the guy's manager is?

Talking of being able to read, I've observed that there is a written sign at or on a door in busy stations with the words "STATION MANAGER" or "STATION MANAGEMENT".

Does that help at all?

 

[talltim]

But in today's fragmented railway, who's to say whether the station manager is the dispatcher's boss? Although to be fair, they probably are. I'm going on a gut feeling here, but I'm sure there are dispatched stations without a manager's office, I don't know the situation at Jon's station.

 

[jon0844]

Any idea where it is at Finsbury Park?

Not that it matters, as I've now reported it to FCC via other means. As suggested to me above, if they choose not to do anything then at least I've not kept it to myself.

And, so far, I've not given any information that could identify this person.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But in today's fragmented railway, who's to say whether the station manager is the dispatcher's boss? Although to be fair, they probably are. I'm going on a gut feeling here, but I'm sure there are dispatched stations without a manager's office, I don't know the situation at Jon's station.

If they're not the boss then they will probably know who is. You really are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

 

[talltim]

Probably, but to resort to playground language, 'it wasn't me that started it'! Jon asked a perfectly reasonable question and was attackedcompletely unfairly.