Faulty conductor equipment!

[Lawman]

Folks,

My partner told me this story today... whilst on board a train from Glasgow Central station to Whifflet at 1546 hours, she witnessed a passenger trying to purchase a ticket from the conductor. The passenger issued the conductor with a cashline card however her machine declined this. The conductor had stated that "sometimes" the machine just declines those types of cards.
The passenger thereafter provided the conductor with a further card to which was also declined. The passenger had no cash on him.

The conductor then gave the passenger a bit of a hard time about him being under an obligation to purchase a ticket from the ticket office before boarding the train. Bearing in mind, it was quarter to 4, there was no barrier checks in operation at Glasgow Central. The conductor then stated she would have to take his name and address to "bill" him for his journey.

The passenger was obviously unaware that he had to purchase the ticket beforehand and it obviously wasnt his fault the conductors machine just declined his card.

My question is this... Should all tickets be purchased before boarding a train and is it standard procedure for the conductor to obtain personal information if their card machine is faulty?

Also what would happen if you were boarding a train from an unmanned station and this same senario arrose?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I dunno how strenuous SR are with buying at manned stations beforehand, but he should have brought a ticket beforehand at Glasgow Ctl, and I think the conductor will send him a bill for the ticket, as he couldn't pay at the time (maybe as a ride now, pay later).

Also what would happen if you were boarding a train from an unmanned station and this same senario arrose?

Unless in a PF zone, this wouldn't happen.

PayTrain was introduced in the late 60s/early 70s as a way of buying onboard, and closing ticket offices at stations (well over 250 I would have thought!), but I don't think this has any relevance here. I know sometimes machines can be faulty, and certain card types can be rejected, but, hey, that's how it goes.

 

[Anvil1984]

Yep it is correct proceedure

If boarding at an staffed station tickets should be purchased before boarding otherwise can be charged full anytime single or return fare, no off peak tickets, railcard discounts or any other special tickets (at guards discretion)

Some cards decline on the Dionne / chip and pin(new contactless cards are one of them with certain other types) some passengers know this and attempt to use the card everyday hoping the guard who in likelyness wont work that shift for a while after will just say "make sure next time". Also cards can decline for other reasons, the guards dont know the reason for the decline, they may have reached their offline limit, the bank may have information on the account, we just dont know.

In all cases either a phonecall can be made to the relevant authorisation centre but this can take a while and if you are on a stopping service you have no chance as you have to turn the phone off whilst doing safety critical duties (i.e doors and dispatch) so the other options is to take the passengers details for a Unpaid Fares Notice or Travel Irregualarity Report if you think they are trying it on

If boarding at an unstaffed station the same applies except they can purchase the discounted tickets, if the card declines you still take the details of the passenger

 

[GB]

If there is an open ticket office, ticket machine or permit to travel machine at your orginating station then you should purchase a ticket before you board.

If any of the above are not working or unavailable for some reason then I believe you are permitted to purchase a small range of tickets on board.

While its not the passengers fault the card machine wasn't working that dosn't mean he is entitled to free travel. So yes, the guard or RPI is entitled to ask for his name and address to retrieve payment.

 

[Lawman]

Gents, thanks for your informative replies..

so, if the card machine aint working and u have no cash.. can you purchase your ticket using empty ginger bottles?? lol just kidding!

 

[Broken Viking]

Strangely enough, it seems that cards don't work nearly as well on the railway as we'd like them to, and I'm starting to think it might be a good idea if people are advised to always have enough cash on them to purchase part of their journey before travelling.

When I was on an FGW Link service the other day, I tried to purchase additional tickets from the Guard and the PINpad simply wouldn't read the chip in my card, even though we both tried unmounting/remounting the card several times. Fortunateley I already held a ticket valid through Reading, so at least I didn't find myself in the position of having to take a UFN and risk clocking up an automated Penalty Fare due to not being able to pay on the spot.

In my case, I think I just ran into a machine with a knackered chip slot (Given how much use they get, I wouldn't be at all surprised) but after this near miss, I'm going to try and make sure that I have at least enough cash to hand to cover the first stage/split of my journey...And remembering some stories from other people in the past, I'd advise other people to do the same if they can, especially when travelling from unmanned stations where the one self-service machine doesn't always work properly!

 

[142094]

If everyone started paying by card the TOCs would loose a lot of money, mainly due to the fact that is seems to take double the time to process the transaction.

 

[PR1Berske]

I have had a debit card declined on-board before now. Once, the conductor managed to 'swipe' the card old-school-style, for which I had to sign ("The chip and pin thing is up and down like a whore's kecks, mate"), the second time was a "Don't worry about it this time but consider yourself very lucky"

 

[Helvellyn]

Sometimes the chip and pin device won't read the card; other times it can be because the issuing Bank has restricted the number of "offline" transactions that the cardholder can make with their card, i.e. where the machine isn't connected to a phone so that it seeks authorisation for the payment. Unfortunately the banks don't tell people about this, so you get agitated passengers saying there is money in their account, it's the fault of the railway, etc, when in fact the reason is down to the way the bank has set things up. Checking the card balance in a cash machine will usually reset the card apparently.

 

[strange6]

If everyone started paying by card the TOCs would loose a lot of money, mainly due to the fact that is seems to take double the time to process the transaction.

yeah and the bank charges them fees don't forget. I always pay cash for small amounts. Less fuss and no hastle. I don't half get annoyed when I'm delayed by some person paying a few quid by card - Surely everybody can carry 20 quid or so to pay small amounts off!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sometimes the chip and pin device won't read the card; other times it can be because the issuing Bank has restricted the number of "offline" transactions that the cardholder can make with their card, i.e. where the machine isn't connected to a phone so that it seeks authorisation for the payment. Unfortunately the banks don't tell people about this, so you get agitated passengers saying there is money in their account, it's the fault of the railway, etc, when in fact the reason is down to the way the bank has set things up. Checking the card balance in a cash machine will usually reset the card apparently.

thats the same as I tell them, however if there is someone who goes straight away "you need to swipe it m8" I purposely use the Dione as if the chip is blocked (3 attempts failed etc.) it will still say the swipe won't!

 

[142094]

yeah and the bank charges them fees don't forget. I always pay cash for small amounts. Less fuss and no hastle. I don't half get annoyed when I'm delayed by some person paying a few quid by card - Surely everybody can carry 20 quid or so to pay small amounts off!

Same here, often take the correct change as well if I already know the price. The technology that Barclays has on some of their credit cards (contactless technology) would be good if it could be installed quickly, although AAIU there is a limit to how much you can pay by that method.

 

[Anvil1984]

Students are often the worst for it, the amount of cards for Burley Park / Headingley just to Leeds (often with a railcard) is ridiculous at times.

Swiping and signing is an iffy one, we used to have floor limits and the such like but each company and each depot seem to have their own tolerance on swipes becuase swiping without authorisation is against The Banking Code or something like that but some are willing to take the risk and some aren't.

The chip and pin machines we have (especially the dionnes) arent good enough for the task in hand and our company admit that. Also if we UFN people for declined cards we could be spending half our shift doing paperwork and other people get agitated why we arent taking their fare and making them queue at the barriers (plus theres only 7 sheets on our UFN pads so if your on a shift that takes 20 cards on average).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

thats the same as I tell them, however if there is someone who goes straight away "you need to swipe it m8" I purposely use the Dione as if the chip is blocked (3 attempts failed etc.) it will still say the swipe won't!

I also make them put it Dionne just as an added security measure even if I now its a card that will decline, just so I'm sure as I can be that its theirs,

 

[Broken Viking]

however if there is someone who goes straight away "you need to swipe it m8" I purposely use the Dione as if the chip is blocked (3 attempts failed etc.) it will still say the swipe won't!

If someone says that straight up when they try to pay by card, then that is a good sign that the card isn't theirs...Otherwise why wouldn't they be happy to chip/PIN in the normal fashion? Unfortunateley, that kind of suspicion would be best passed onto the BTP - And although I know they're always working somewhere, I don't think I've seen a uniformed BTP counstable on board a train in years! hock:

The technology that Barclays has on some of their credit cards (contactless technology) would be good if it could be installed quickly, although AAIU there is a limit to how much you can pay by that method.

IIRC, the limit for a Visa Wave contactless transaction is £15.00, and the number of those might be restricted to x transactions after the card was last used in an "online" device. With AToC constantly bumping the payments for their new 75" widescreen tellies fares up, I doubt that Wave could be a practical option on todays railways. :roll: Also...

• A "Wave" transaction can randomly request that the user enter their PIN, which - Given the nature of Wave and its security considerations - Would have to be checked with a server somewhere as a Wave card shouldn't transmit its PIN over the air. Therefore, Wave might not work on "offline" Avantix devices.
  .
• Some users - Myself included - Are concerned about the security risks posed by Wave given that the transmissions from similar RFID cards (Including Oyster, which is what the London 2600 group checked this out on) can be read from up to 40ft away. Consequently, those of us who aren't willing to accept this new "Wave" technology on our payment cards have made the decision to drill holes straight through the RFID chips immediateley upon receipt, should any of us be unlucky enough to receive such cards from our banks! hock:

I also make them put it Dionne just as an added security measure even if I now its a card that will decline, just so I'm sure as I can be that its theirs,

Good call, sir!

Though if I may pose a question to the Commercials amongst us: What happens if ye encounter a passenger who's using a card that's obviously not theirs and for which they have no possible authority to use? I know some of ye may be BTP Special Counstables (In which case that's easy: A straight up Police arrest for handling stolen property and/or attempted fraud) but what can/should those without Police powers do in such a situation?

 

[googolplex]

Though if I may pose a question to the Commercials amongst us: What happens if ye encounter a passenger who's using a card that's obviously not theirs and for which they have no possible authority to use? I know some of ye may be BTP Special Counstables (In which case that's easy: A straight up Police arrest for handling stolen property and/or attempted fraud) but what can/should those without Police powers do in such a situation?

For things like fraud there are any person powers of arrest, however I doubt many guards would make a citizen's arrest for something like that.
I think if a BTP Special did that too often it could be considered a conflict of interests by the brass in their force, so I doubt they would. There's also the no back up or protection equipment aspect to consider. Additionally, they could end up having to continue doing the police officer side of things when back up arrives to take him away (paper work, interviews etc), meaning they couldn't do their conductor duties.

Presumably the best option in such a situation would be to notify the card company who could better confirm if anything dodgy was going on and if necessary get the police to meet the train at the next station.

 

[Tom B]

If someone says that straight up when they try to pay by card, then that is a good sign that the card isn't theirs...Otherwise why wouldn't they be happy to chip/PIN in the normal fashion?

Perhaps said passenger had had such a problem before and was trying to be helpful to the guard?

Last time I tried to use a card on Scotrail (lowland sleeper) there was no card machine, it was a carbon form to fill in. They sat on this authorisation for about 2 months before sending it to the bank, which was confusing as all hell!

 

[Geezertronic]

When I first started using my debit card to purchase tickets off the VT website, the fraud department of Barclays kept ringing me up and asking whether I had made the purchase because according to them, cloned credit/debit cards are used to purchase tickets which the thieves then sell on for cash.

Not too sure how that works but my bank have eventually realised that I do purchase tickets from VT/Trainline so don't bother me now. But at the time it was good to know they were on the case I suppose?

 

[deltic1989]

A while ago i was going with my mte to Crewe, for photting session. We got on at Hykeham, where there are no ticket machines, so I intended to buy my ticket on the train> when the TI came down I tried my card, in his machine but it wasn't having it, the TI looked at my card and said "its an electron mate thats why, we dont take them. Fortunately I ahd enough cash in my pocket to get as far as Nottingham where i nipped up to the booking hall and purchased a Single to Crewe, and at Crewe on the way home got a single to Lincoln. A near miss that left me a little red faced.

 

[Max]

There was some discussion here about this a while back:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40417

 

[Nevasleep]

Students are often the worst for it, the amount of cards for Burley Park / Headingley just to Leeds (often with a railcard) is ridiculous at times.

Swiping and signing is an iffy one, we used to have floor limits and the such like but each company and each depot seem to have their own tolerance on swipes becuase swiping without authorisation is against The Banking Code or something like that but some are willing to take the risk and some aren't.

Meh, we are moving to a cashless society. The railways need to get with the times, give the terminals 3G or something, to allow online authorisations most of the time.
Although thankfully Visa Electron cards have been phased out, the Visa Debit cards seem much better for compatibility.

Also swiping means the 'retailer' becomes liable if the card is used fraudulently.

 

[scotsman]

Meh, we are moving to a cashless society. The railways need to get with the times, give the terminals 3G or something, to allow online authorisations most of the time.
Although thankfully Visa Electron cards have been phased out, the Visa Debit cards seem much better for compatibility.

Also swiping means the 'retailer' becomes liable if the card is used fraudulently.

My card is Visa Debit and got rejected when ScR moved from swiping to using the bricks

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Meh, we are moving to a cashless society. The railways need to get with the times, give the terminals 3G or something, to allow online authorisations most of the time.


Also swiping means the 'retailer' becomes liable if the card is used fraudulently.

This would be virtually impossible on the routes I work as the phone coverage is consistently poor.

However, when cards are declined I know where the phone network on either my work phone or personal phone will work long enough to get an authorisation code, so I always phone through and get a code to make it work. It is very rare now that I will have to do anything else and find that once you are used to the phone authorisation system it can be done very quickly.

When people who say "It doesn't work mate, you'll have to swipe it" it always alarms them when I start phoning for a code. 60% of the time I find that those that know their card doesn't work also have it declined via the authorisation centre as well.

 

[island]

We had this on another thread as I recall; most of the time this happens it is because the issuing bank has set what is called a "service code X2X" on the card, meaning it is not allowed to do offline transactions.

If a guard swipes a chip card and accepts payment on it without phoning for authorization, the bank can take the payment back if it feels like it without any recourse for the TOC. This is called a "liability shift".

 

[9K43]

Go back to the Almex machine and the excess book, never mind chip and pin.
Then you would need a leather wazz bag and a £5 float and yer nippers and yer set for life.

 

[tinselworm]

I find that my card often gets declined on the FGW Cardiff-Taunton service, I can only presume to a bad signal for the machine, as the one time that I've been kicked off a train, I went to a cashpoint and withdrew £40 "just in case" from the card that was "Declined", I find it always works on the swipe though so I tend to tell the conductor that the chip plays up... I had my last card replaced after the chip and the magnetic strip both stopped working but ONLY on the trains. It's a bit annoying as it can cause some red faces, I'm just thankful that you get sympathetic conductors that allow me to stay on the train even when my card doesn't work. One had a rant at me on a train from Keynsham to Worle as i hadn't had time to buy a ticket (train running late from keynsham, pulled in opposite the train i was transferring too) And I offered to leave at the next station. I'm not sure what the rules are though because sometimes they start to give me the "You should have bought a ticket at the station" talk (which i generally always do however my home station is Worle = no ticket machine) But when they notice that I am disabled and I have a disabled railcard for it, they don't give me trouble.

 

[island]

If you were kicked off a train while holding a disabled railcard, that seems like bad form.

 

[anthony263]

FGW & ATW both seem to always have trouble with their ticket machines. I have been on the 05:40 Cardiff - Milford Haven service once when it was hit & miss whether or not the machine would accept payment from cards. ( One conductor told me it was the software)

Another time the conductor on the 04:30 Bridgend - London Paddington service has had problems getting his machine to print out the tickets

 

[francisoldfield]

on our Southern services, it is Lloyds cards that kick up the most fuss (the green card variety)

looking at the card the chip looks a lot bigger than the one in my natwest debit card. But as has been said as soon as you get the phone out to ring for auth number they suddenly find cash...

 

[route101]

Last time i used card to pay FSR Chip and Pin wasent used . I see now only recently that the Guards /TE now have to Lug them Chip and Pin Machines around . Tbh ive not noticed too many people using card onboard the trains . RBS cards seem to be a problem with there small chips compared to other chips on credit / debit cards .

 

[Scotrail84]

Last time i used card to pay FSR Chip and Pin wasent used . I see now only recently that the Guards /TE now have to Lug them Chip and Pin Machines around . Tbh ive not noticed too many people using card onboard the trains . RBS cards seem to be a problem with there small chips compared to other chips on credit / debit cards .

Its the green lloyds tsb cards that cause the most problems with Scotrails thyron machines and occasionally BOS and RBS cards. I think they are looking to get them online so all cards will be accepted (not electron,solo or diners cards). Also that would mean no onboard limit for transactions. Ideal for the commission hungry Guards