Fares via Manchester including Metrolink validity: has this changed recently?

[yorkie]

Have fares routed 00318 "via METROLINK CTLZ" been re-routed to 00312 "via Manchester"?

I have tried various examples of fares which I know which previously had route code 318, but now have route code 312

I think the wording on the TfGM website may have changed, as I think it used to say tickets had to be routed via Manchester Ctlz, but now reads as follows:

Train and tram return combined peak ticket (adult)

You can buy tickets that combine Metrolink tram trips with Greater Manchester train journeys, instead of getting two separate tickets

tfgm.com

You can also travel on Metrolink in zone 1 (See tram map) at no extra cost if you have one of the following tickets:

1. The destination on your train ticket is “Manchester Central Zone” (MANCHESTER CTLZ). This is available for train tickets from anywhere in Greater Manchester into Manchester city centre.
2. A train ticket from and to any Greater Manchester train station, where you need to change between city centre stations within Metrolink Zone 1 (See tram map). You can use the tram to change between the two city centre train stations for no extra cost.

The cost of the ticket depends on how far you're travelling.

Does anyone know exactly when this changed, what the rationale between the change is, and how inspectors are supposed to know if both the origin and destination are both within Greater Manchester? Or maybe they now look for "via Manchester" and accept any ticket with that routeing (even if the origin and/or destination are outside Greater Manchester)

I understand from certain sources that in reality Metrolink inspectors accept any rail ticket with validity via Manchester, rather than trying to figure out if both the origin and destination are both within Greater Manchester.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can shed any light on this!

 

[Djgr]

how inspectors are supposed to know if both the origin and destination are both within Greater Manchester?

Well presumably they learn them like you learnt the periodic table at school.

 

[cool110]

It appears to have been done in the 5th of July fares round

 

[TUC]

how inspectors are supposed to know if both the origin and destination are both within Greater Manchester?

Isn't that no different a question to how they know which stations are within the boundaries of any area/zonal-based ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Isn't that no different a question to how they know which stations are within the boundaries of any area/zonal-based ticket?

Are tickets issued to point to point metrolink stations or are they issued to zonal locations?

Would they need to 'know' this, given there are almost certainly network maps on board the trams? And would the inspectors not carry network maps?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Metrolink ticket inspectors to either have knowledge of, or easy access to, the full zonal information for stations within their own network? But I don't see that as equivalent to having the same level of knowledge to the National Rail network, if that's what you are suggesting?

 

[TUC]

Are tickets issued to point to point metrolink stations or are they issued to zonal locations?

Would they need to 'know' this, given there are almost certainly network maps on board the trams? And would the inspectors not carry network maps?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Metrolink ticket inspectors to either have knowledge of, or easy access to, the full zonal information for stations within their own network? But I don't see that as equivalent to having the same level of knowledge to the National Rail network, if that's what you are suggesting?

I meant that you seemed to be saying that it may be difficult for inspectors to know whether both origin and destination stations are within GM.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are there any non-GM fares which are routed VIA MANCHESTER?

 

[TUC]

(Error)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are there any non-GM fares which are routed VIA MANCHESTER?

How about Knutsford to/from Chorley? (Priced by Northern).

 

[Haywain]

How about Knutsford to/from Chorley? (Priced by Northern).

And others in the same clusters. Similarly, fares from Hope Valley station to the Chorley area are routed ‘via Manchester’.

 

[redreni]

Isn't that no different a question to how they know which stations are within the boundaries of any area/zonal-based ticket?

But when on-board staff inspect a zonal ticket, they only need to know if the passenger is within the relevant zones at the time of the inspection. They don't need to know all the stations that are within the zones. That's different to being presented with a point-to-point ticket and needing to know if both the origin and destination are within Greater Manchester.

Though on the other hand, ticket inspectors are expected to know all sorts of things they can't possibly always know. If you don't know roughly where the origin and destination stations are then it's hard to see how you're supposed to assess whether the passenger is on a valid route between them?

 

[marshlinker]

Are there any non-GM fares which are routed VIA MANCHESTER?

London Terminals to Halifax, Huddersfield, Bradford etc.

 

[Rail Ranger]

"Via Manchester" does not indicate whether the ticket is valid on Metrolink between Piccadilly and Victoria.

 

[Haywain]

"Via Manchester" does not indicate whether the ticket is valid on Metrolink between Piccadilly and Victoria.

So what does indicate whether it is valid or not? And how is a passenger supposed to know that one ticket routed 'via Manchester' is valid and another with the same route is not?

 

[kieron]

Does anyone know exactly when this changed, what the rationale between the change is, and how inspectors are supposed to know if both the origin and destination are both within Greater Manchester? Or maybe they now look for "via Manchester" and accept any ticket with that routeing (even if the origin and/or destination are outside Greater Manchester)

The inspector will surely carry a TfGM map like the one here.

I can see advantages and disadvantages to this change. It removes some of the oddities of the previous system, like the way that tickets between Marple and Ashton-under-Lyne weren't allowed on Stockport-Stalybridge trains whereas ones between Rose Hill Marple and Ashton-under-Lyne were, but weren't valid on Metrolink.

This change leaves a lot of unhelpful "via Manchester" route codes behind, such as Glazebrook–Wigan.

One disadvantage is that printing "Metrolink" on the ticket was a good way to let people know it was valid that way. I don't know what they do now.

 

[TUC]

London Terminals to Halifax, Huddersfield, Bradford etc.

I was trying to figure out whether these fitted within the definition'A train ticket from and to any Greater Manchester train station, where you need to change between city centre stations within Metrolink Zone 1.

Does that imply a requirement for an origin or destination within GM, which involves a Metrolink journey as part of it, as opposed to longer journeys that are via Manchester?

 

[Rail Ranger]

The route "Via Metrolink CTLZ" only used to apply to rail journeys between pairs of stations in the TfGM area requiring (or having as an option) a need to cross Manchester between Piccadilly and Victoria using Metrolink. Every other journey required the passenger to pay for a Metrolink ticket. Has this changed?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It appears to have been done in the 5th of July fares round

Inclined to concur. If I rightly recall, there was a discussion at the time, here on the forum, as regards signage seen displayed at Bromley Cross station just after the change was implemented.

 

[Rail Ranger]

We know that the wording on cross-Manchester tickets has changed but what has changed in terms of validity?

 

[Trackman]

I was trying to figure out whether these fitted within the definition 'A train ticket from and to any Greater Manchester train station, where you need to change between city centre stations within Metrolink Zone 1.

Does that imply a requirement for an origin or destination within GM, which involves a Metrolink journey as part of it, as opposed to longer journeys that are via Manchester?

This is what is confusing me.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The previous wording was clear (although it would have been better if it had included all rail journeys requiring the use of Metrolink to cross Manchester like the through ticketing via the London Underground). The new wording is anything but clear.

 

[redreni]

Like many railway announcements, this doesn't quite say what one assumes they mean.

Given that point-to-point tickets cannot be issued from and to the same station, we can rule out the natural, literal interpretation of the first limb of the requirement which is that the ticket must be from and to a station, and that station can be any of the stations in Greater Manchester.

The next plausible interpretation is they mean "A train ticket from one Greater Manchester train station to another."

I also suspect the second limb of the requirement isn't intended to be as restrictive as it is. "Need to" is quite a high bar as it implies changing between city centre stations within zone 1 has to be the only way to complete the journey. Otherwise, the passenger doesn't need to change between central Manchester stations, they're just choosing to. I can't imagine that's what they really mean.

I suggest they ought to re-write it so it actually says precisely whatever the hell they want it to say, and isn't susceptible to other interpretations.

By the way, I wish I'd known about this validity when I used to need to travel occasionally between Mills Hill and London: I used to accept splits at Manchester which left me walking across town, but if the tram is thrown in on, say, a Mills Hill to Stockport single, it might have been worth forcing a split at Stockport instead.

 

[Rail Ranger]

A Mills Hill to Stockport single always used to include the tram between Victoria and Piccadilly.

 

[Howardh]

Begs the question, if you tap in at (say) Rochdale, and you go to Stockport, you may go Rochdale - VIC - tram - Picc - Stockport; it won't allow you through the gates at Victoria so you have to tap out, then tap on the tram and off again, then tap in at Picc and out at Stockport.

Therefore - does this mean you pay for three journeys subject to a daily cap, or does it work out that it's a BON-Stockport single and the x-Manchester tram journey was legitimate (and free)? A single paper ticket suggests you travel for free on the tram as outlined in the OP

 

[TUC]

Like many railway announcements, this doesn't quite say what one assumes they mean.

Given that point-to-point tickets cannot be issued from and to the same station, we can rule out the natural, literal interpretation of the first limb of the requirement which is that the ticket must be from and to a station, and that station can be any of the stations in Greater Manchester.

The next plausible interpretation is they mean "A train ticket from one Greater Manchester train station to another."

I also suspect the second limb of the requirement isn't intended to be as restrictive as it is. "Need to" is quite a high bar as it implies changing between city centre stations within zone 1 has to be the only way to complete the journey. Otherwise, the passenger doesn't need to change between central Manchester stations, they're just choosing to. I can't imagine that's what they really mean.

I do think you're overthinking 'need to'. It surely just means what I suspect most people would interpret it as-that you're making that B-C leg of the journey where you're travelling A-B-C-D.

I don't at all think most people would read it as 'only valid if I have no alternative'.

 

[redreni]

I don't at all think most people would read it as 'only valid if I have no alternative'.

Granted, yet we're left to guess what happens if travel via Piccadilly and Victoria is a permitted route but not the quickest or the most obvious.

I don't think the fact people can work out that they don't really mean what they say absolves them of the responsibility to say what they mean. We are still left unsure of exactly what they mean.

I expect they mean where the ticket is from one station in Greater Manchester to another and a route involving a change between stations in Metrolink Zone 1 is permitted, then the ticket can be used on the tram to make the transfer. I wouldn't rule out, however, that a ticket inspector would quibble if they considered that another route avoiding the cross-Manchester transfer would have been more obvious or quicker, and the wording "need to" doesn't exactly help the passenger in that situation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

All they’ve done is reword the existing entitlement. Tickets between two stations in Greater Manchester (where you cross Manchester) have included tram validity for as long as I can remember, it’s just they have changed what it says on the ticket. I’m not quite sure why, tbh.

I use Manchester Airport to Rochdale to split on my journeys to the Calder valley for this reason, and that’s an example where you can take a train to avoid the tram if you prefer.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I use Manchester Airport to Rochdale to split on my journeys to the Calder valley for this reason, and that’s an example where you can take a train to avoid the tram if you prefer.

Are there direct trains between the two? Surely you'd have to change at Manchester Victoria or maybe at Salford Crescent?

 

[cool110]

Strictly speaking, the tram has never been required since the Ordsall chord was built.

 

[323235]

I remember the odd time in the old days getting a via Manchester Central Zone ticket to say Bolton and being told you had to travel via Metrolink. One instance was future advisory and one was an argument, If I recall. Either way I never went by Metrolink or bought the higher any permitted / Manchester fare ever in my years travelling, though I don’t think I ever bought one after switching to e tickets or on a physical ticket with an Aztec, as I didn’t have reason to do one of those journeys that were route Manchester Central Zone.