I also like this one from last week
hhttp://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Michael%20Roberts%20-%20Transport%20Times%20speech%2012May11.pdf
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Fares report out tomorrow
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I also like this one from last week
hhttp://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Michael%20Roberts%20-%20Transport%20Times%20speech%2012May11.pdf
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RailUK Forums
Please keep this thread for discussion of the fares aspect of the McNulty report; discussion of other aspects should go in the main thread here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45811
I think it would be unlikely that smart ticketing will be introduced without returns being twice the single. Day returns on Dutch Railways used to cost about 1.8 times the price of a single. When the OV-Chipkaart was introduced for nationwide train travel, the smartcard single was reduced to half the paper day return, meaning a return was the same whether it was on paper or smartcard. But now paper returns cost twice as much as paper singles so there is basically no reason to get a paper return, except for the convenience of not having to buy two tickets.
I suppose it is possible to retain the existing walk-on fare structure on a smartcard basis by having a sophisticated capping system, which would be far more complicated than the Oyster system. If you swiped in at London Euston and swiped out at Manchester Piccadilly you could be charged the Off-Peak or Anytime single depending on the time of day. If you then returned within a month then the 'excess' to a return could be charged. I would be very surprised if this is how things will be done.
Break of journey would be difficult to manage, unless you were allowed not to swipe in or out when breaking journey. If you had to swipe during a break of journey then the system would have to calculate if the combination of consecutive trips made on the smartcard comprised a valid 'through trip'.
Split ticketing would be a nightmare if you have to swipe in and out of each station you are splitting at. This is already a problem if you are combining paper and Oyster tickets.
It is widely believed that people using Oyster with Auto Top-up leads to many people making extra trips without worrying how much they are spending. This may turn out to be the case with mainline trains if a similar system is used. This could be seen as a good thing if it takes cars of the road, but it could lead to people running up huge bills.
For any smartcard system to work, you'll need to have a way to touch in and out at EVERY station, but given these smaller stations won't be staffed - you then need to have severe penalties for people who try it on.
Ignoring the potential for ATOC and the DfT to mess up the ticketing and fare structure, in theory it could work very well.
Those people who travel frequently would not only benefit from a capping system (the idea of being excessed for a return journey within a month is interesting as it would be achievable, even if it wouldn't happen!) but it would be easy to then introduce discounts, perhaps on a sliding scale, as your usage increases.
Dare I say it - you could even potentially introduce an annual cap! Now, that might sound crazy (I bet ATOC would think so) but it could work.
Ignoring the potential for ATOC and the DfT to mess up the ticketing and fare structure, in theory it could work very well.
Those people who travel frequently would not only benefit from a capping system (the idea of being excessed for a return journey within a month is interesting as it would be achievable, even if it wouldn't happen!) but it would be easy to then introduce discounts, perhaps on a sliding scale, as your usage increases.
Dare I say it - you could even potentially introduce an annual cap! Now, that might sound crazy (I bet ATOC would think so) but it could work.
If you buy a walk on return fare today, you can end or start short on the return portion other than the very few cases where break of journey is not allowed on the return portion. In the monthly capping smartcard scenario, what would happen if you ended short? For example, in my example above, if you decided to end your Manchester to London journey short at Milton Keynes whilst returning, would the system know that Milton Keynes is en route to Euston and therefore should be considered as being capped, or whether you would merely be charged for another single?
The whole system would need to change.
There are so many possible ideas that I wouldn't know where to begin - as well as loads of people who would be protecting their own interests.
Clearly the TOCs would want to ensure the same level of revenue (or more), while the Government could - in theory - want passengers to pay less for using smartcards, at least until there was sufficient usage that old-style tickets were phased out (like is happening in London).
There would clearly be winners and losers, and some of the clever tricks to pay less might disappear. However, in the long run, regular travellers would hopefully be better off.
I don't think we can deny that smart ticketing will come one day. That's a given. I think we can also tell that there will be many people who will fight it, but ultimately lose simply because you won't be able to stop technology advancing.
Can anyone imagine that we'd still be printing and using paper tickets in 2050, given how we're already moving towards contact less payments now. Slow as the uptake might be, I think I can safely say hand-on-heart that any problems will be overcome in the next few years - not tens of years.
There are so many possible ideas that I wouldn't know where to begin - as well as loads of people who would be protecting their own interests.
Clearly the TOCs would want to ensure the same level of revenue (or more), while the Government could - in theory - want passengers to pay less for using smartcards, at least until there was sufficient usage that old-style tickets were phased out (like is happening in London).
There would clearly be winners and losers, and some of the clever tricks to pay less might disappear. However, in the long run, regular travellers would hopefully be better off.
I don't think we can deny that smart ticketing will come one day. That's a given. I think we can also tell that there will be many people who will fight it, but ultimately lose simply because you won't be able to stop technology advancing.
Can anyone imagine that we'd still be printing and using paper tickets in 2050, given how we're already moving towards contact less payments now. Slow as the uptake might be, I think I can safely say hand-on-heart that any problems will be overcome in the next few years - not tens of years.
I wonder whether there will be massive incentives to encourage smartcard usage, at least in the beginning? Oyster's 'popularity' is undoubtedly in large part due to the premium charged for paper tickets. Dutch Railways don't offer any discount for using their smartcard which is probably why smartcard usage on the trains is woefully low. The 20 euro deposit is probably another reason.
I'm not sure a deposit system would be appropriate for a rail system the size of Britain's and people have already joked about having the deposit as the same as the maximum Anytime fare. It would almost certainly have to be compulsory to have the card linked to a bank account with a variable Direct Debit mandate in place.
I'm not sure a deposit system would be appropriate for a rail system the size of Britain's and people have already joked about having the deposit as the same as the maximum Anytime fare. It would almost certainly have to be compulsory to have the card linked to a bank account with a variable Direct Debit mandate in place.
As someone who uses Oyster with Auto top-up I can vouch for this tendancy. The email that accompanies each auto top-up does tend to focus the mind though, and usually causes me to check journey history to make sure I've not falllen victim to a mistake. The upside for Oyster users is that often they won't cap for a days travel where previously they might have bought a day travelcard to be on the safe side.
I doubt the maximum fare would work for a national railway smartcard! However, it would certainly make people find the time to touch out.
I don't know how such systems work abroad, but there must be a way to resolve that problem?
For a nationwide system, I would also expect that you would buy the ticket and pay up front (from a ticket office/TVM) and it's merely loaded on to your smartcard. Likewise, you could buy a ticket via the web, or a smartphone app, and it's loaded on the smartcard when you touch in - or even from being downloaded over the air to your NFC enabled phone.
In this way, you wouldn't need to touch in or out to be 'valid' and could still be checked by on-train staff and RPIs alike, as now.
For the convenience alone, I'd love to have a single card that contains a number of tickets/railcards - and the PAYG bit would be debiting my credit when paying at a machine BEFORE travel, not after.
You could still allow people to manage their account (card) via a TVM/website/app such that you might be able to upgrade your single ticket to a return within a month, for example.
I don't know how such systems work abroad, but there must be a way to resolve that problem?
For a nationwide system, I would also expect that you would buy the ticket and pay up front (from a ticket office/TVM) and it's merely loaded on to your smartcard. Likewise, you could buy a ticket via the web, or a smartphone app, and it's loaded on the smartcard when you touch in - or even from being downloaded over the air to your NFC enabled phone.
In this way, you wouldn't need to touch in or out to be 'valid' and could still be checked by on-train staff and RPIs alike, as now.
For the convenience alone, I'd love to have a single card that contains a number of tickets/railcards - and the PAYG bit would be debiting my credit when paying at a machine BEFORE travel, not after.
You could still allow people to manage their account (card) via a TVM/website/app such that you might be able to upgrade your single ticket to a return within a month, for example.
One issue with smartcards is that it could be the end of unlimited travel season tickets. In the annoucement Philip Hammond talked about the disadvantages of having a ticket the gives you a week of unlimited travel that you will most likely not need.
In my view, using smartcards to hold a point to point ticket that was bought previously, whether it is from a ticket office, TVM, online or mobile device, is little different to buying a conventional paper ticket, Megatrain ticket or print@home ticket. The only difference being that the ticket is not printed or written down but stored on a chip.
I presume the main impetus for smartcards (from the rail industry's point of view) is to enable the removal of ticket offices and even TVMs. It would be largely intended that people would top up automatically by direct debit/bank card or online or at retail outlets. The industry would gain little if you were able to buy a ticket at a ticket office/machine and load it on to your smartcard, compared to simply getting a printed ticket.
I presume the main impetus for smartcards (from the rail industry's point of view) is to enable the removal of ticket offices and even TVMs. It would be largely intended that people would top up automatically by direct debit/bank card or online or at retail outlets. The industry would gain little if you were able to buy a ticket at a ticket office/machine and load it on to your smartcard, compared to simply getting a printed ticket.
It could be both, like Oyster which can have a PAYG credit and up to three season tickets (but I presume these could potentially be normal point to point tickets too?).
Annual seasons must surely remain for commuters who work 9-5 5 days a week (a significant number I'm sure), but as people want to be given more freedom - perhaps to work from home a couple of days a week - or work flexible hours such that many days may be all off-peak, I'd be keen to see flexible season tickets. Perhaps a season where you have to activate it each day you use it? You'd need to have a minimum level, to stop people simply getting a cheap daily ticket once in a year, but it could be far less than an annual season.
You might lose the free weekend travel, but it wouldn't be hard to offer discounted or free travel at off-peak times once you've used a certain number of daily tickets. Or just include a fixed amount of weekend travel. I probably use my season at weekends on average no more than two or three times in any given month.
The fact is, there are so many options available that it's limited only by imagination AND how the industry will try and stop progress for as long as possible!
I'd like to work from home at least one day a week, maybe two. What's more, it's possible that I could be allowed to do this in lieu of a pay rise, but I'd be paying for those days on my annual season and that's annoying! When I was at a TfL event talking about home working, this was brought up as something that is stopping some people from working at home part-time.
Annual seasons must surely remain for commuters who work 9-5 5 days a week (a significant number I'm sure), but as people want to be given more freedom - perhaps to work from home a couple of days a week - or work flexible hours such that many days may be all off-peak, I'd be keen to see flexible season tickets. Perhaps a season where you have to activate it each day you use it? You'd need to have a minimum level, to stop people simply getting a cheap daily ticket once in a year, but it could be far less than an annual season.
You might lose the free weekend travel, but it wouldn't be hard to offer discounted or free travel at off-peak times once you've used a certain number of daily tickets. Or just include a fixed amount of weekend travel. I probably use my season at weekends on average no more than two or three times in any given month.
The fact is, there are so many options available that it's limited only by imagination AND how the industry will try and stop progress for as long as possible!
I'd like to work from home at least one day a week, maybe two. What's more, it's possible that I could be allowed to do this in lieu of a pay rise, but I'd be paying for those days on my annual season and that's annoying! When I was at a TfL event talking about home working, this was brought up as something that is stopping some people from working at home part-time.
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Season tickets on smartcards give, again, little advantage over their paper equivalent, although they are perhaps a bit more useful than storing pre-purchased point to point tickets on the card. Renewal is easier as it merely requires the card to receive a signal to extend its expiry date rather than printing a new ticket, and can be cancelled in the event of loss. Bus pass fraud on London's buses is probably a lot less due to the expiry date being checked more accurately compared to when drivers merely gave passes a quick glance.
I can get one replacement of my season ticket a year. Beyond that, it's money down the toilet!
Now, I've never lost a season, but I was amazed that the train operator couldn't even block a lost or stolen ticket. While the ticket has a serial number, the gates don't appear to be able to, or simply don't, check them.
So given how I've said before that you could probably print a fake Gold Card quite easily and NEVER have it inspected to any great detail (being a Gold Card, RPIs know there are no restrictions so always accept it - even failing to check the origin/destination stations), having a season on a smart card that could be killed in an instant (or silently trigger an alert to have the offender caught) would reduce fraud that I bet a lot of people don't even know exists!
Now, I've never lost a season, but I was amazed that the train operator couldn't even block a lost or stolen ticket. While the ticket has a serial number, the gates don't appear to be able to, or simply don't, check them.
So given how I've said before that you could probably print a fake Gold Card quite easily and NEVER have it inspected to any great detail (being a Gold Card, RPIs know there are no restrictions so always accept it - even failing to check the origin/destination stations), having a season on a smart card that could be killed in an instant (or silently trigger an alert to have the offender caught) would reduce fraud that I bet a lot of people don't even know exists!
SteveP29
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I don't want to sound pedantic or anything, but considering there's usually 4 weekends in a month, you're using it at least half the weekends each month.
I would hazard a guess at that's where the changes will hit the most, enabling the TOC's to take more money out of our wallets
Yes, but only one day - so that's 2 or 3 individual days out of 8-9 days (average of 4.5 weeks a month).
I might have been optimistic too, as while I am going in tomorrow, I actually haven't been into London on a weekend at all this month.
I might have been optimistic too, as while I am going in tomorrow, I actually haven't been into London on a weekend at all this month.
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