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Fares report out tomorrow

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Mojo

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This isn't just a report on fares; it's the culmination of a long overdue and wide reaching inquiry about the abysmal financing of the railways.
 

SS4

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Have to agree with a staggered end to peak yet surely they need to look into how peak is defined - are trains at 3pm and 7:15pm really peak?

Call my cynical but I see the off peak return being hiked and the super off peak being extended slightly as a measure of the bountiful TOCs throwing a scrap to the travelling plebs (who should be buying CDs anyway)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or "efficiency savings" which is a posh term for cuts
 

Captain Chaos

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Why do I have a bad feeling about this report from a staff point of view? :|

Not that I am saying that looking at the way the railways is financed isn't required because it is. The fare system needs some serious sorting out. However I feel the suggestion of more DOO coming on. Just a feeling.

Still will know more tomorrow.
 

mikeg

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I don't see why the government needs to interfere in this at all (and believe me, I am in no way laissez-faire on economic issues). Train companies can already create a staggered off peak by creating a super off peak ticket for the flow. Super off peak, off peak, and anytime can already accomplish this. Just look at East Coast's fares in to London as an example of this. I fear that a staggered off peak might look like this for walk-up fares: Anytime, Shoulder peak, off peak, super off peak, super duper off peak, absurd times only - all of which will add to confusion. Unless of course they're talking advance tickets in which case this is what already happens with the different prices being available at different times.
Furthermore, one person in a Torygraph article I read said of trains packed to the rafters just after the peak ended and really quiet just before. That's easy then, do what East Coast does and sell cheap advance tickets during the peak, just after the peak restrictions on the super off tickets have either come in or are about to end.
The current ticketing system is far from perfect, but I believe that this report will take us in the wrong direction.
 

yorkie

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That article is absolutely rubbish.
But at the same time, the price of journeys just outside the rush hour are set to rise following a sweeping review of fare structure to be announced by Philip Hammond, the Transport Secretary.
Is this true? or an assumption?

I doubt we will see a change to the structure, that would require a change in legislation, surely?

The changes will be triggered by a report into the rail industry by Sir Roy McNulty, the former head of the Civil Aviation Authority, which is due to be published tomorrow.
What changes "will" be triggered?
Sir Roy is expected to be fiercely critical of the current complex existing ticketing arrangements, which he believes fail to manage demand properly – especially on the fringes of the rush hour.
This is silly because
1) We have more Advance fares than ever, and this actually helps TOCs to manage demand
2) Many TOCs are managing "fringe" peak demand by having Super Off Peak, Off Peak and Anytime, and nothing stops more TOCs doing this!
3) Many TOCs have to offer cheap AP fares on peak fares because the Anytimes are so expensive (e.g. East Coast trains between 1820 and 1850) that the "peak" trains would have spare capacity otherwise!



Currently radically different fares charged can be charged for trains only five minutes apart.
can be, but don't have to be.
This is because of ticketing rules, dating back to the 1970s, which mean that peak hour travel is two and a half times dearer than those just outside the rush hour.
Gibber. Bull. Rubbish. Use whatever words you want. This is simply not true. The multiplier will vary depending on the TOC, and guess what? The TOC that sets the fare can choose! This guy clearly has a lot to learn about ticketing.
As a result the first and last “peak trains” have seats to spare, while the preceding and following services are bursting at the seams.
This can be true on certain routes, but some TOCs mitigate against this by offering cheap AP fares on trains that are near the end of the peak period. They can also have Off Peak and Super Off Peak so there isn't a huge gulf in fares.
“Rather than having fares rise or fall dramatically, we think the movements should be more subtle,” said a Whitehall source.
“This would discourage the situation where you can have an evening train packed to the rafters five minutes after another service had scores of empty seats.”
Ah, so you'll have more layers of Off Peak? What will they be called? Semi-Off Peak? Slightly Off Peak? Almost Anytime?

The proposed changes are intended to be “revenue neutral” with the amount raised from higher off peak fares being balanced by the reductions in the price of some rush hour tickets.
Really? I thought Government's plan was to increase the proportion paid for by fare payers. If they are denying that they are planning increases then either they have changed policy (unlikely) or are liars.
These changes are most likely to apply to fares charged to passengers who make occasional trips to and between major cities.
In other words not affecting Season ticket holders. Hardly surprising given that many of these are protected.

Other initiatives are being considered for commuters including the introduction of “smart season tickets” which, like the Oyster Card in London, would offer discounts for travelling outside the rush hour.
Some TOCs do this already (e.g. TPE Earlybird). They can't force other TOCs to do this, but it may be sensible to encourage them (how?)
Unlike current season tickets, passengers would not be charged for days in which they do not travel.
Eh? What do they mean by that? Season tickets are priced assuming passengers do not travel at weekends and if they do it's a bonus. If people get individual tickets they are already "not be charged for days in which they do not travel", so what do they propose that charges people who travel less frequently, less money, yet charge people who travel only "occasionally" more money?


Perhaps any old rubbish is being written to 'pad out' the article?

The review will also aim to simplify the current fare arrangements, which have left passengers baffled.
How? So it will be simpler, but with gradual increases (ie, more fare levels!) in fares at peak times? How on earth are the two statements compatible with each other?
Sir Roy, who found that the rail industry is up to 40 per cent more expensive to run than its continental counterparts, has called on train operators to find other sources of income to boost their revenue.
He should concentrate on getting NR to reduce it's costs!
He will call for the building of 10,000 new car parking spaces at stations which, Sir Roy estimates, could raise £38 million over the next five years.
That is about the only potentially sensible proposal I have read so far.
 

OxtedL

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You appear to be angry, yorkie.

(Another amazing turn of perception for OxtedL)
 

WatcherZero

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The reporter has been briefed on the governments spin of what the report will say tommorow as Im sure most papers have been, basically the report will find the majority of the cost discrepancy between the UK and the continent is in labour costs, working practises and wages.

The season ticket discount would be if say you were on holiday and didnt travel for a week or were on a business trip for a couple of days, a discount would apply to your season ticket as you hadnt used it (would require electronic ticketing).

I can vouch for the last peak train issue, Northern runs a 9:29 service from my station which is much less crowded than preceding and post service, it sits in the station for 10 minutes so they timed its departure delibertely for maximum fare revenue and the conductors enforce it vigorously.

Update:

Guardian has printed its version of the story it was briefed:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/19/rail-train-tax-fares-hammond

* Rural lines could be transferred to local authority control.
* Subsidy will be reduced but RPI+ peak fare increases could end after four years
* The 12% of the population that use trains are the pampered and rich few recieving more than their share of public spending.
* Shorter trains in the offpeak, more decoupling of carriages from peak services
* No Beeching style cut while passenger numbers rising, but rural heavily subsidised routes could be offloaded to local authority responsibility
* Warned if there were strikes it would only strengthen the calls for legislation banning strikes
* Reduction in conductors

And a response by Bob Crow
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/19/transport-transport

* Costs have tripled since privatisation
* Franchises are a cash cow for guarenteed risk free profits (Yeah right)
* Rail workers earn below median earnings and are paying with jobs so wont stand for wage cuts (note he says median rather than average, theres a difference)
* Rant about nationalisation and how a British worker is better than a lower paid Spanish worker.

BBC take:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13446824

* Network Rail working closer with franchises saves £1bn
* Building car parks to increase revenue
* Review of fares, increasing off peak fares
* Staff cuts
 
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SS4

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How? So it will be simpler, but with gradual increases (ie, more fare levels!) in fares at peak times? How on earth are the two statements compatible with each other?

ATOC's definition of simple wouldn't match anybody's here.

WatcherZero has summed up my opinion, whatever the real cause the cause given will be union fat cats (how dare they hold a democratic vote on striking! :roll:)
 

ralphchadkirk

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Yorkie; usually parts of government reports due to be published are leaked to the press to get it in the day's papers.
 

Ferret

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Yorkie; usually parts of government reports due to be published are leaked to the press to get it in the day's papers.

What a surprise - it's rail staff's fault for being paid too much?! Don't make me laugh. The fact that we've sold terms and conditions to make ourselves more productive hence being able to earn a living wage is conveniently ignored by a total wuckfit who clearly has no understanding of how pay negotiations work. Of course, it couldn't be anything to do with extortionate leasing costs for trains or NR waste, or TOC waste that's responsible now could it? Unbelievable.
 

ralphchadkirk

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What a surprise - it's rail staff's fault for being paid too much?! Don't make me laugh. The fact that we've sold terms and conditions to make ourselves more productive hence being able to earn a living wage is conveniently ignored by a total wuckfit who clearly has no understanding of how pay negotiations work. Of course, it couldn't be anything to do with extortionate leasing costs for trains or NR waste, or TOC waste that's responsible now could it? Unbelievable.
I was talking about his first quote;
But at the same time, the price of journeys just outside the rush hour are set to rise following a sweeping review of fare structure to be announced by Philip Hammond, the Transport Secretary.
 

DarloRich

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the fares section is just a cover to deflect attention from the fact that NR is going to get an almighty kicking (and face big changes with "closer integration" with the TOCS - regardless of the damage) and that rail staff are going to get the boot
 

yorkie

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http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/stra...il/pdf/realising-the-potential-of-gb-rail.pdf

See pages 115 to 123

Basically they want smart ticketing (but there are already plans for that anyway) and less fares regulation (ie, deregulation).

Deregulation will cause more anomalies, e.g. if Virgin increase the price of the Manchester to London SOR to higher than the Edinburgh to London SOR, that sort of thing will be more and more common. Less regulation means TOCs have the ability to simply do their own thing irrespective of other TOCs.

Unfortunately if the two are combined it may not be possible to benefit from anomalies as you would be touching in/out at the relevant stations, unlike today where you can easily start/finish short.

But until smart ticketing forces us off the rails, we can mitigate against some of the increases by purchasing longer distance tickets on TOCs that do not raise their fares as much as other TOCs. e.g. East Coast price the SVR York to Doncaster so high that it is cheaper for a SOR to a couple of stops further along the line as the fare is set by a different company. This looks set to become more common.

Smart ticketing should be opposed unless guarantees of good value are given, and if guarantees that it will be done with similar principles to Oyster, such as you are only charged half the cost of a return when going one-way. Given that such assurances are unlikely to be given, and given that ATOC will ensure it is as complex as possible and as anti-customer as possible, I oppose smart ticketing until assurances are given.

Deregulation must also be opposed as this will cause huge rises for anyone who does not book in Advance.
 

Captain Chaos

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So with the spread of DOO to as many services as possible and the removal of on-train staff, who is actually going to buy a ticket if they know in the future they will NEVER get asked for a ticket? They may well reduce costs but have they considered the fact that they may also lose revenue as well. The report states that us conductors only collect 5% of revenue. Is the plan to just increase the prices by 5% to cater for the lost revenue and not worry about it?
 

Zoe

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So with the spread of DOO to as many services as possible and the removal of on-train staff, who is actually going to buy a ticket if they know in the future they will NEVER get asked for a ticket?
Introduce barriers at more stations?
 

WatcherZero

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Reading through it now, these are my observations from the first chapter on costs/revenue.

Suggests maintence and renewals spending rose post Hatfield but it back down to 1997 levels through increased NR efficency.

The cost of the industry i.e. public spending reduced by fares revenue is the same today as it was in 1997 after adjusting for inflation, £4.3bn, despite the rise in passenger km.

The number of rail staff per passenger km has declined by 30% in the freight industry but increased by 10% in the passenger industry. Rail staff have constistently enjoyed above inflation wage rises and reduction in working hours meaning they have become vastly overpaid and cannot expect above inflation wage rises in the future.

Since 1996/7 public subsidy has increased by £1.7bn and fare revenue has risen by £2.7bn, however this has been offset by a £2bn rise in train operating costs mostly leasing more stock and a £2.7bn rise in the revenue required by NR to maintain the network. Governments net contribution to the industry peaked in 1993 then fell under privatisation until Hatfield before rising sharply, it has since fallen to the level that existed at the time of privatisation.

There was a backlog of investment because BR was under resourced which had to be rectified but that starving of resources may have been a better cost control regime to prevent costs rising than that used by the industry post privatisation.

Taking into account NR savings during CP4 and if NR achieves it aimed savings during CP5 it would become almost as efficent as possible with £0-£500m savings still to be found, a £700m - £1.2bn savings gap would then remain where Tocs and Roscos need to find efficency savings.

Privatisation reduced costs by 20-30% in Sweden and 20% in Germany however in the UK it has not significantly reduced costs. Though it suggests on the continent they may have cheated by transferring staff from the regional franchise operations to the still state owned intercity franchise distorting costs, he still thinks 30% savings could be made here.

Suggests rolling stock utilisation in GB is 25% less than the EU average though this is partly caused by French TGV high utilisation level. Too many trains in rural areas travelling empty. However we enjoy a higher frequency and greater choice of destinations than on the continent.

Rail fares are 30% higher in the UK (more farebox revenue) than elsewhere and should come down however public subsidy is higher though he says this could just be accounting apportionment.
 

Ferret

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So with the spread of DOO to as many services as possible and the removal of on-train staff, who is actually going to buy a ticket if they know in the future they will NEVER get asked for a ticket? They may well reduce costs but have they considered the fact that they may also lose revenue as well. The report states that us conductors only collect 5% of revenue. Is the plan to just increase the prices by 5% to cater for the lost revenue and not worry about it?

Farcical isn't it? I believe I took more in ticket sales than I'm paid in wages last year! I bet I'm not the only one either, but yet DOO is somehow going to save money? What a giggle.
 

Captain Chaos

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Introduce barriers at more stations?

Barriers don't really solve the problem though. It will still require staff to operate them and there are probably very many rural stations where barriers would be impractacle and impossible. This could probably lead to further declines of revenue on branch lines and potential closure due to insufficient revenues. We have been asking for barriers at Newbury for years and years but have been told that the local council have refused to allow them to be installed.

But let's assume that barriers are the solution. Are they going to be manned at all times that trains are running to protect revenue? The trouble with barriers is that if people are intent on avoiding them then they will find a way.
 

Flamingo

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Farcical isn't it? I believe I took more in ticket sales than I'm paid in wages last year! I bet I'm not the only one either, but yet DOO is somehow going to save money? What a giggle.

Well, I take about four times my monthly take-home (including overtime), and I am not one of the high ticket-monsters. Some TM's can take over £20K a month.

Also, without the deterrent factor of someone checking the tickets, more than 5% will think "Why bother buying a ticket, no-one will check".

All these arguments are cyclical, about ten years ago wasn't the cost of manning barriers a reason that so many stations (including mainline) became unbarriered as "everybody has a ticket, we can save by not having barriers"

Coupled with the requirement for a ticket office clerk to unquestioningly sell a ticket from anywhere to anywhere else that some on here argue for (a charter for dumb-belling), then a lot of tickets on my patch will be sold from Cardiff to Newport and Ealing to Paddington, as they will only be needed for the barriers.
 

Indeterminacy

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http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/stra...il/pdf/realising-the-potential-of-gb-rail.pdf

See pages 115 to 123

Basically they want smart ticketing (but there are already plans for that anyway) and less fares regulation (ie, deregulation).

Deregulation will cause more anomalies, e.g. if Virgin increase the price of the Manchester to London SOR to higher than the Edinburgh to London SOR, that sort of thing will be more and more common. Less regulation means TOCs have the ability to simply do their own thing irrespective of other TOCs.
...
Deregulation must also be opposed as this will cause huge rises for anyone who does not book in Advance.
Sorry if this is a premature analysis, but the way I read the report suggested that the Advance fare model was proposed to be more broadly applied for off-peak travel, which keeps a certain amount of regulation in place but allows TOCs more freedom as regards the actual proportion of the fare to apply. Even for purchases arbitrarily close to departure, off-peak tickets could still be graded on the basis of availability, but it would approach the fixed rate as time went on. In practice, this might mean cheaper fares for turn-up-and-go passengers if they turn up in good time; it might also make spontaneous long-distance journeys cheaper too, given that the passengers would have the time advantage over others at connection.

The point about that is to try to strike a balance between load and cost while maintaining the theoretical standardisation; competition within fixed parameters, as it were. The smart ticketing move is supposed to allow this without overly worrying about the resulting overload of advance ticket bands that would come into effect - customers swipe their smart card, get the cheapest prices available for a given journey and choose their train accordingly. Presumably, that would be <i>the</i> single journey option; quite how flexible returns would work is disputable. It seems as though the report suggested it would be Savers or Anytimes and that's it, I'd have to look at that section again in more detail.

This proposed model does seem to work well with Delay Repay in terms of how it deals with infrastructure failure - cancelled or excessively delayed trains give you a proportion of "Your Fare" back, which means those who paid for a busy train and ended up on a near-empty one don't feel cheated out of their overcharge. But the worry is that replacement and connection services throw a huge spanner in the works. Would we have passengers simply demanding reimbursement on the grounds that the stratified fare rates no longer make sense when we're putting buses on or sharing tickets and passengers with other distressed TOCs?


A tangential objection to be made is Transparency. The very point of the smart card system is to allow TOCs to issue more finely-stratified grades of fare without passing the complexity on to customers; putting yet another automation gap between the TOCs and their customers is hardly going to go down well in an industry where, as the very same report states, "The delivery of meaningful and relevant information to the customer... is probably one of the weakest elements of today's railway". Customers should presumably be able to delve more deeply into the fare system to get more fine-tuned results, and that's a hard balance to strike when you have this "smart card" panacea in place.

We still get complaints about people struggling with unmanned ticket barriers and online purchasing, and while I personally like the idea of doing more complex work with fewer inputs, there is a kind of worry that mechanisation rather than personal contact is something that our customers naturally resist. If fares do need to be more fine-tuned, I can only see complexity increasing, even if we think we can hide some of that complexity behind an extra microchip or two, and I think our customers are observant enough to pick up on that manoevre.
 

yorkie

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ATOC press releases are always a laugh! Always full of propaganda. They tell a very different story to what they really think.

Michael Roberts said:
“We welcome the report and support its key findings.
Well, you would! But that just strengthens my argument that customers will not welcome it.... if it's good for ATOC, it's unlikely to be good for the customer. We know what ATOC stands for all too well!
Michael Roberts said:
Rail travel is more popular now than it has been for decades,
But then so is car travel! So this statement is fairly meaningless

Michael Roberts said:
but its future success depends on change across the whole sector to drive down costs and deliver better value for money to passengers and taxpayers.
But you, as an organisation, appear to be obsessed with reducing the value for money to passengers, eroding our rights, and confusing us. You appear to be trying to put people off rail.

Michael Roberts said:
“We look forward to a new relationship between the public and private sectors, where Government focuses more on setting overall policy and allows train operators and Network Rail to show greater leadership in providing better services to passengers at an affordable cost.
You think we are going to get better services at an affordable cost?! This report suggests the opposite to me.
Michael Roberts said:
“We welcome a review of fares policy. Our fares system remains largely unchanged since privatisation and no longer properly reflects how people travel today - we need to develop an approach fit for the 21st century.
In other words you welcome deregulation because it can allow the TOCs to implement huge fare rises. Huge fare rises may still result in fares that are affordable to you and your highly-paid chums like David "Customers should buy CDs instead" Mapp, but not ordinary people, so this contradicts your earlier comment.
Michael Roberts said:
“We agree with Sir Roy that we can build on the successes of today to create one of the most efficient rail systems in the world and look forward to working with all key players in the industry to realise this vision.”
Build on successes? Presumably you count your absurd "Simplification" project as a "success"? With successes like that, I dread to think what you would consider a failure.
 
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