Fares no-one would buy

[Failed Unit]

A Thread that is a bit of fun to provide example of fares which no-one would hopefully buy (but may do on the internet by mistake).

We all know that due to good old fares simplification some people may buy an anytime ticket when an off-peak is in fact valid all day not knowing that you can infact use the off-peak on many routes all day.

However looking at Edinburgh - London tickets.

You can buy a £124 AP ticket,
The walk on ticket is £107 if you are not travelling on the 0550 or 0600 services.
If you are you pay £135,

You can buy a 1st Class AP ticket for £195 although the East Coast only walk up is £186.50 and if you want to pay for some food and use the West Coast it will only set you back £189.50.

Is there any reason operators have AP tickets priced above the walk on fare, is it a case that the fare bracket exists so they price it anyway or are they trying to catch people out. In the case of the £195 AP single you may as well pay the extra £4 and get a meal and return ticket for the extra!

Any other examples of tickets that are out to get the unsuspecting internet booker?

 

[yorkie]

york - doncaster 'open' return, travelling before 0930 returning a different day ... costs more than to Sheffield, the next stop (on XC)!

 

[323235]

Exeter St Davids- Paignton "XC Only" Anytime Day £9.90 - 40p more expensive than an Any Permitted
Newton Abbott - Paignton "XC Only" Anytime Day £4.90 - 10p more expensive than an Any permitted

you get the idea , there are a fair few flows within that area were the XC Only tickets seem to be more expensive than the Any Permitted.

 

[yorkie]

Cheltenham-Bristol First Anytime return £34.00 (Any Permitted)
Cheltenham-Bristol First Anytime Day return £35.80 (XC only)
It's against the rules to sell that ticket unless anyone is stupid enough to insist on it.

 

[furryfeet]

Tamworth to Atherstone anytime day return £3.70
Tamworth to Atherstone off-peak day return via Tamworth £6.50
Tamworth to Atherstone anytime day return via Tamworth £8.10
Tamworth to Atherstone 1st anytime day return £11.40
Tamworth to Atherstone 1st anytime day return via Tamworth £24.20

 

[yorkie]

Tamworth to Atherstone anytime day return £3.70
Tamworth to Atherstone off-peak day return via Tamworth £6.50
Tamworth to Atherstone anytime day return via Tamworth £8.10
Tamworth to Atherstone 1st anytime day return £11.40
Tamworth to Atherstone 1st anytime day return via Tamworth £24.20

via Tamworth is meant to be via Birmingham, surely?

 

[ChrisTheRef]

The good old £1000+ tickets where you can just buy a FC ALR for £650

 

[A60K]

The good old £1000+ tickets where you can just buy a FC ALR for £650

Although it would depend on when you were making the return journey - if it's three weeks after the outward then the ALR wouldn't be any good.

 

[Wyvern]

Belper to Derby First Class £6.50 (about eight miles)

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Belper to Derby First Class £6.50 (about eight miles)

Does that get you into a lounge at Derby?

 

[Capybara]

Cheltenham-Bristol First Anytime return £34.00 (Any Permitted)
Cheltenham-Bristol First Anytime Day return £35.80 (XC only)
It's against the rules to sell that ticket unless anyone is stupid enough to insist on it.

That's just astonishing hock:

 

[Edvid]

Does that get you into a lounge at Derby?

It should do according to EMT. I was recently tempted to buy a First Anytime Return from Nottingham to Beeston (a 3-4 mile journey I think) and use the lounge at the former but thought better of it - in any case I ate on the train to London anyway (for which I had a £9.90 Railcard-discounted First Internet Advance).

As it happens, I have a First Anytime Single (VT-only) from Coventry to Birmingham International for next week, for £2.20 that gets me cheap entry into the Coventry lounge. (I hope.)

 

[First class]

Liverpool - Chester SDR route Birkenhead (Any Permitted is 5p cheaper)
Liverpool - Chester SDR route Warrington (Any Permitted is £2.60 cheaper)
Liverpool - Chester CDR route Warrington (Any Permitted is £4.20 less, 50% cheaper!)
Liverpool - Chester SDS route Warrington (Any Permitted is £3.10 cheaper)

Now, I could argue that people should NEVER buy standard class tickets Liverpool Warrington, as buying a Chester 'Any Permitted' is always cheaper. I am surprised that no First Class fares exists for Liverpool-Chester route Warrington though.

Very equally, nobody should ever buy a ticket from Warrington-Chester, but get it from Liverpool.

Warrington-Chester Any Permitted - £8.80 SDR
Liverpool-Chester Any Permitted - £6.15 SDR

Also,

Liverpool-Helsby/Frodsham. Anyone making this journey can buy a Liverpool-Chester Any Permitted ticket and break their journey, saving £1.00.

 

[tony_mac]

There is some confusion over what happens when an any permitted fare is cheaper than a route-specific fare.

The Routeing guide says, in one place, that you can use the any permitted fare on the more expensive route (as long as it's a valid route), and in another place says that you can't.

One place this is enforced online, is Manchester to Reading. The any permitted fare is shown as not being valid via London, even though London is a permitted route. (Manchester to Reading 'any permitted' is cheaper than Manchester to London).

In general, though, such as the examples you gave, you can buy the cheaper 'any permitted' fare for the more expensive route.
(A Chester to Wigan CDR is £13, a Chester to New Lane CDR is £4.40 - the shortest route is via Wigan)

 

[Deerfold]

There is some confusion over what happens when an any permitted fare is cheaper than a route-specific fare.

The Routeing guide says, in one place, that you can use the any permitted fare on the more expensive route (as long as it's a valid route), and in another place says that you can't.

One place this is enforced online, is Manchester to Reading. The any permitted fare is shown as not being valid via London, even though London is a permitted route. (Manchester to Reading 'any permitted' is cheaper than Manchester to London).

What's to stop you buying an 'any permitted' online and travelling via London as it's a permitted route? If it's nothing, it's not being enforced very well

 

[yorkie]

What's to stop you buying an 'any permitted' online and travelling via London as it's a permitted route? If it's nothing, it's not being enforced very well

If you're referring to Reading to Manchester he said it is being enforced. But whether it is correct or not is dubious. Most planners tend to look for the '+' I believe when deciding if via London is permitted. However that isn't definitive. I bought a ticket that was permitted via London but had no '+' in late 2006, it wasn't available online but I got it at a ticket office with reservations and used it without problems (except, as you'd expect, from some badly trained LU staff, who I baffled with the Routeing Guide to prove it was valid)

 

[First class]

With Liverpool-Chester they currently have:

Route Birkenhead
Route Warrington
Any Permitted

Now, I see no reason why 'route Birkenhead' should exist, given that the fares are exactly the same for less validity.
I believe that you could use a route Birkenhead also via Warrington and Runcorn as the fare is equal to the Any Permitted ticket. The very worse that could happen is that they insist on you getting a £0.00 route excess.

I also believe that Merseyrail breach the impartial retailing regulations when they sell Liverpool-Chester tickets. Nearly always, they will sell the route Birkenhead ticket.
If a customer asks for 'Chester', surely the most flexible ticket, (and considering it is at no extra cost to the customer), is the 'Any Permitted'. The customer is not asking to be restricted to a certain route.

I suspect that Merseyrail created the route Birkenhead to ensure 100% of revenue is allocated to them for this flow, as the Any Permitted is vastly distributed:

Virgin (valid via Runcorn)
London Midland (valid via Runcorn)
East Midlands Trains (Valid via Warrington)
Arriva Trains Wales (Valid via Warrington)
Northern Rail (Valid via Warrington)
Transpennine Express (Valid via Warrington)
Merseyrail (Valid via Birkenhead, Hooton)
That minibus in Chester that the TOCs "sponsor"

 

[tony_mac]

when I say enforced - I just mean that if you select a service via London, it won't let you buy the 'any permitted' ticket.
I've never tried it on the train, I can't be bothered going to Manchester just to see if the guard moans about it!

 

[yorkie]

when I say enforced - I just mean that if you select a service via London, it won't let you buy the 'any permitted' ticket.
I've never tried it on the train, I can't be bothered going to Manchester just to see if the guard moans about it!

Ah, if he meant enforced on the train, then it is unlikely, as it appears to be valid and a good case can be made for saying it is valid. However the excess would be half the difference (one way) so £7.25. Given how complicated the debate about validity could be, I think it wouldn't be worth anyone's hassle.

 

[tony_mac]

the any permitted ticket doesn't have any evening peak restrictions, so it could be an expensive excess.

 

[Pumbaa]

First class: many thanks for those, I had no idea. Certainly saved me a few bob now I know that!

is Liv - Chester valid via Crewe? I don't think it would be, but that's the only logical way to get from Warrington back to Chester.

 

[First class]

First class: many thanks for those, I had no idea. Certainly saved me a few bob now I know that!

is Liv - Chester valid via Crewe? I don't think it would be, but that's the only logical way to get from Warrington back to Chester.

No, it's only valid via Runcorn because of the Halton Curve,

i.e. Liverpool-Runcorn-Frodsham-Chester. There's nothing to stop you breaking your journey at Runcorn though, because it's still valid, although if you were going to Chester, you would have to get to Runcorn East to complete your journey, a fair walk I believe.

It's valid via Warrington because it assumes you are going to Bank Quay. There is a direct, regular service between Warrington and Chester via Helsby. However, there is nothing to stop you using it to Warrington Central and walking, or simply ending your journey there.

The permitted routes are: (note some stations are just included for route illustration).

Liverpool-Birkenhead Central-Hooton-Bache-Chester
Liverpool-Hunts Cross-Widnes-Warrington Central-Warrington Bank Quay (Walk)-Runcorn East-Chester
Liverpool-Wavertree Technology Park-St Helens Jn-Earlestown-Warrington Bank Quay-Runcorn East-Chester
Liverpool-Liverpool South Parkway-Runcorn (Main)-Runcorn East (Walk)-Frodsham-Chester

If you're looking for a cheap Liverpool-Warrington season ticket:

An annual season Liverpool-Chester Any Permitted (valid via Runcorn, Warrington and Birkenhead) costs £1108. (This is best for a Liverpool-Runcorn season saving around £100).

HOWEVER, better still, a Liverpool-Ellesmere Port Any Permitted annual season ticket, (which is valid via Birkenhead and Warrington, but not Runcorn), only costs £864.00.

The Liverpool-Warrington Stns annual season costs £1216, so by buying to Ellesmere Port instead, you save a massive £352 and gives you a much wider area you can use the season ticket.

NONE OF THESE TICKETS, HOWEVER, ARE VALID VIA CREWE.

 

[barrykas]

WRT Reading - Manchester rte Any Permitted, the instructions in the Routeing Guide seem quite clear on the matter.

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[tony_mac]

In the examples in section F it says..

A ticketholder with a ticket routed “Manchester” must go via Manchester and therefore only has a choice of those routes in the list that include Manchester.....

If the “Any Permitted” fare is less than the “Manchester” routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester.

Which I think is also quite clear.

 

[First class]

CrossCountry should change their fare to Not London and Virgin to +Any Permitted.

 

[yorkie]

There are some unclear instructions, but yes in these cases the instructions are clear but they contradict each other. The biggest problem we have is that it is impossible to easily see all the rules in one place, and which rules take priority. Without this, there will always be ambiguity and debates as to whether a ticket is valid or not. However consumer laws state that if it is not clear then it has to be given in the consumers favour.

 

[Ivo]

A walk-up First Class Single from Newport (SW) to Cheltenham Spa costs £17.50, rte AP (which presumably permits travel via Bristol Parkway). On the other hand, XC - who have the same owners remember - will charge anything up to £33.50 for an ADV First Class Single. Almost double the price, and for what? Strict restrictions on use! Even the cheapest ADV seems to be £14.00, which is 80% of the walk-up fare. So why would anyone bother (besides because they do not understand the system, I suppose...)?

 

[yorkie]

A walk-up First Class Single from Newport (SW) to Cheltenham Spa costs £17.50, rte AP (which presumably permits travel via Bristol Parkway). On the other hand, XC - who have the same owners remember - will charge anything up to £33.50 for an ADV First Class Single. Almost double the price, and for what? Strict restrictions on use! Even the cheapest ADV seems to be £14.00, which is 80% of the walk-up fare. So why would anyone bother (besides because they do not understand the system, I suppose...)?

Good point, but be careful when using the abbreviation "AP", as if that appears in the route description it actually means "Advance Purchase"! e.g. York to Penzance Route "AP Londn Reading" means Advance Purchase via London and Reading.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Preston to Plymouth FOR= £542 (Priced by Cross Country)
-but-

Preston to Totnes FOR= £314 (Priced by Virgin West Coast)
2X Totnes-Plymouth FDS= £20.40

XC want= £542.00
Total split= £334.40
Saving= £207.60

Also-

Crewe to Leamington Spa 12 month Season FC= £9280 -but-
Warrington to Leamington 12 month Season FC- £7904 -

XC want £1,376 more for a journey which is just over 24 miles shorter..

 

[yorkie]

XC want £1,376 more for a journey which is just over 24 miles shorter..

Yep and no doubt XC think other operators are charging too little. This is why I am so against removing anomalies, because we all know which way it would go.... Just like "simplification", which was anything but - where overall customers lost out, any further attempts to have 'common conditions' or prices to be 'evened out' would almost certainly cause fare rises for many people.