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Fare Evasion

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OwlMan

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Despitebeing asked the OP has not given any further details. Without knowing from where and at what time the journey was made I am unable to make any judgment whether he tried to avoid payment or whether he was genuinely trying to pay with his visa delta.
Without further details any comment ia worthless.

Peter
 
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radamfi

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Can arrangements be made for the passenger to phone a friend or family member and pay the conductor by giving card details over the phone?
 

reb0118

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What is the chance of meeting the same guard three times? Do guards in Scotland do the same rotas day in day out? On my regular trips on Southern and SWT I almost never see the same guard twice.

No we chop & change like the rest. Therefore if I've "caught you" three times -just think how many other trains the person as been on. Not all guards TI people, not all guards can patrol their train (for lots of reasons), some guards just put people off if they have no payment without reporting this so once again if one guard catches "you" three times in a relatively short space of time then the chances are that "you" are a persisant avoider.

When we are "spare" we can pick up the same turn three times in the week, and yes on one of those instances I've caught the same man twice and a colleague the third time with an Electron. He had a wee visit from the BTP an has since mended his ways.:)
 

CarterUSM

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I'm the same as you reb, see it day in day out, and i recognise many of them before they even board. I don't know how many TI reports i've filled in regarding them, but it must be scores. Again, if i've come across them before, i'll ask them to leave also.
 

OwlMan

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They've not log on again since posting, so they won't have any idea of the discussions going on here.

Probably a Troll then - surely if you ask a question on a forum you look to see if there is an answer.

Peter
 

hairyhandedfool

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Can arrangements be made for the passenger to phone a friend or family member and pay the conductor by giving card details over the phone?

Northern staff have been specifically asked NOT to take credit card details over the phone, however, it is possible for someone else to pay for the ticket at another station and have the ticket issued at the departure station, if there is time.
 

ainsworth74

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Probably a Troll then - surely if you ask a question on a forum you look to see if there is an answer.

Peter

Have to wait and see, they could be at work today and not have had chance to log on, but if we've had nothing else from them by this evening then I would agree probably a troll.
 

radamfi

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Are Prepaid Mastercards valid payment? National Rail website doesn't explicitly ban these, even though they are similar technology to Solo and Electron. Prepaid Mastercards have become popular in recent years with people who can't get bank accounts and for use as travel money. They are also the only free payment method available on Ryanair.

Has anyone come across paying for train tickets by postal order? They are an accepted payment method according to National Rail!
 

222007

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A family memeber boarded a train without a valid ticket but with the intention of purchasing one with an electron debit card. Unfortunately it appears that you cannot use elctron cards to purchase tickets and therefore it was refused.

The Guard or revenue protection officer if you will took details and it was thought that it would be a simple case of being billed for the fare.

This appears not to be the case as they have a zero tolerance to fare evasion and are therefore looking to prosecute.

If a method of payment was offered at the time, it would in my humble opinion show that there was no premediated attempt to fare dodge.

Hello and welcome to ther forum. As a Revenue Protection Inspector myself electron and solo cards are a favorite with the local fare evaders in my area. They purposely board the train knowing we cannot accept them. It gets you to the point where by you know what they will do and what you will do. Please dont feel im saying this is what your family member has done that is not my intention. I hope you get all the help you require
 

yorkie

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WOAH! Hang on a minute! At *no* point did I say that. I said I work at a major station, I don't work for a TOC and I had no idea until reading this thread that Electron was not accepted for payment when buying tickets.
That is *all* I said.
Sorry, I meant ferret (and later confirmed by reb0118)! I'll correct the post!
 

CarterUSM

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Are Prepaid Mastercards valid payment? National Rail website doesn't explicitly ban these, even though they are similar technology to Solo and Electron. Prepaid Mastercards have become popular in recent years with people who can't get bank accounts and for use as travel money. They are also the only free payment method available on Ryanair.

Has anyone come across paying for train tickets by postal order? They are an accepted payment method according to National Rail!



I'm sure i've swiped one of those and it has went through, but i'm not 100% sure. Never taken postal orders but have taken tokens, though not for years, and still get the occasional cheque too.
 

Greenback

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I think I saw a postal order in Reading around 1999. In 8 years in my last job I saw one in about 2003.
 
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Electron cards have been an excuse in the south for a few years as to why they cant buy their ticket along with a few other old favourites, depending on the journey there making and their excuse why they havent a ticket when boarding at a station with a open ticket office ill either TIR them or eject them at the next station with a open booking office and inform them nicely that although I cant sell them a ticket (which most of the fare evaders know the advantix cant take electrons) the nice person in the office can and they can catch the next train. Funny how quickly a £20 can appear in many cases!! :lol:
 

MikeWh

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Probably a Troll then - surely if you ask a question on a forum you look to see if there is an answer.

Peter

Let's just hope they didn't go back to this thread just after someone had moaned about "another fares moan" then. Actually, it was an hour after their original post before anyone offered any response at all, so they might well have given up waiting for the night. I would expect they'll come back at some point, though it might not be until the weekend.

I know us regulars probably more-or-less live online these days (I know I do), so it's a bit of a reality check to realise that there are people like my Mum who sign in to get emails once a day (once cheap rate starts as she's on dial-up) and won't even sign in to send a reply until the next day.
 

Ferret

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Prepaid Mastercards are not supposed to be accepted on trains...
 

scotsman

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I was once offered Mastercard Debit and had to reject it! The sooner heritage railways get Chip 'n' Pin the better, it's insane how many don't have any because of the cost and think nothing of the increased cash flow as a result
 

spacehopper

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Ah Solo & Electron- the dodgers weapon of choice!

They know the railway can't accept them, "most" know we can't do anything about it.

"Do you take cards mate?"- normally followed by being handed an Electron.

So you give them the lecture that NO- we don't take them- usually something about we don't have the means to go "online" and check with the bank that you have money in your account to pay for the ticket. Stuff about how Solo & Electron aren't the "same" as a debit card, etc.

Then what action do we take?

1) Politely ask if they have another method of payment
2) Do the three fails?-
3) UFN or TIR- at this stage some money or another card comes out!
4) Mate pays for them-
5) Jump off at next station find a cash point-
6) Jump off at next station and go through the SILK procedure-

Always try and make a note of the name on the card and a description! Yeah give them the benefit of the doubt first time around but come across them a second or third time......

The move from SPORTIS to AVB2 brought with it a new set of problems. The method of handling card payments became very time consuming in fact in some cases this has become the new £20 stalling tactic save my workmates sat at the very end of the train type scenario.

You have to carry around a brick mostly in your back trouser pocket. This brick is very unreliable! You have to wait for the thing to wake up and connect. When it finally connects hand brick over to punter to pop in their pin. Punter hands back brick- wait for tickets to print out, wait for brick to print out till receipt, wait for brick to ask do you want an other receipt. Then repeat x times through out carriage, while doing doors and announcements and people taking the huff because you haven't got to them yet.

Thats not to mention error 6!

The time it takes to reset the thing is lengthy. Do you do a "soft" reset or a "hard" reset? Even if you reset it there is a good chance it still won't work. So do you keep ploughing through doing cash fares only? Then someone pipes up that it isn't fair that bloke sat next to them gets away with paying his fare or will have to queue up for ages at the barriers all because you are incompetent and need retraining- because your brick won't work.

Then you have the issue with the bricks not taking cards issued by certain banks (Lloyds TSB being the no1). You have perfectly acceptable means of payment but the machine won't take it which causes embarrassment to the punter and staff.

You have instances where punters have cottoned on to this so they jump on the train everyday now getting a free ride. They refuse a TIR / UFN- saying it is not their fault their card won't work in our bricks. Why should they contact the bank to get a new card, why should they have to get cash out to buy a ticket- they want to pay by card.

We aren't allowed to swipe the cards! Even though by doing this you bypass the problem with the chip and we get the payment and they get a ticket. How many swipes you do is recorded so staff are reluctant to do it and most won't swipe ever because staff have been in trouble for swiping. Yet other TOCs swipe and don't use the brick or the magic 1100. Excuse we get is well we have a contract with merchant services and it must be a chip and pin transaction- don't swipe.

Don't ever punch them in manually this is an even bigger no, no!

You can have as many working party roadshows as you want- but these won't fix the fact that these machines are not up to scratch for the needs of the rail industry. TOCs are losing out on ticket sales, staff are loosing out on 3 or 5%, and the punters are having to put up with a shoddy system.

Only ever had one instance of these "pre-paid" cards and AVB2 won't accept them.
 

Solent&Wessex

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We have now replaced our bricks with Thyrons which are a lot quicker to use as they are permanently connected and are generally quicker all round.

The "Error 6" is caused by faulty bluetooth on the PDA not on the brick. I have proved this many times but ATOS and the TOCS won't listen. Try doing a soft reset on the pda and the brick will work. Then put the pda into standby, and then wake it up again. DO NOT touch the brick, but go into Equipment and try and repair it. If the pda now says "unexpected bluetooth error" then the pda is at fault - bearing in mind the brick is still sat quietly at the side it can't be that.

To combat the problem of some cards being declined we now have a phone number to phone an automated system to get an authorisation code. Once you get used to it that is quite quick as well.

And the reason for not swipe and signing is down to getting payment from the bank. Essentially, if the chip is used and it is authorised then the TOC will get the money regardless of whether the customer has any money in the bank when the machine downloads. If it is swiped and signed without authorisation from the chip, then if the customer has no money then the TOC will not get any money - as it has not been authorised by the bank. The chip contains information on each customers "offline" authorisation limit - how much will be authorised automatically without the machine having to dial up for authorisation - which Avantix does not do as it has no connection to do so. This is why some cards will work and others not - it depends how the chip is set by the bank.
 

scotsman

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If it is swiped and signed without authorisation from the chip, then if the customer has no money then the TOC will not get any money - as it has not been authorised by the bank. The chip contains information on each customers "offline" authorisation limit - how much will be authorised automatically without the machine having to dial up for authorisation - which Avantix does not do as it has no connection to do so. This is why some cards will work and others not - it depends how the chip is set by the bank.

That explains a lot! I went into debt on a card that is meant to dial for authorisation every time. I had it swiped by ScotRail on a train and went in debt to the tune of 27p. Cue threatening letters from Lloyds.
 
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Ferret

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Radamfi - I'm not sure it has been publicised! We've had a staff brief, that's all I've seen....
 

wintonian

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Let's just hope they didn't go back to this thread just after someone had moaned about "another fares moan" then. Actually, it was an hour after their original post before anyone offered any response at all, so they might well have given up waiting for the night. I would expect they'll come back at some point, though it might not be until the weekend.

I know us regulars probably more-or-less live online these days (I know I do), so it's a bit of a reality check to realise that there are people like my Mum who sign in to get emails once a day (once cheap rate starts as she's on dial-up) and won't even sign in to send a reply until the next day.

I don't believe you need to log in to read threads - I wouldn't be surprised if that is what the OP is doing, whilst possibly not feeling like logging in again.
 
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We had the old brief a few months aback that swiping was a definate no no, and we had to ring for authorisation to proceed with the transaction, great if its 2pm and the trains empty and you have a clear run for 20 minutes with plenty of reception but not at 7am on a packed train, stopping to release, close doors and dispatch safely every 3-4 minutes and reception that lasts for 30 seconds every now and again.
And to top it off you are asked by your manager that your revenue has gone down a bit compared to previous months... well hello not rocket science :roll:
 

tony_mac

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I have an electron card - I got it for airline flights, but don't use it otherwise, so I have never bothered looking to see where it is accepted.

However, when I lost my regular debit card, I used it to buy a train ticket home - I got one from a ticket machine without any problem.

It would never have occurred to me that it might be accepted at stations but not on the train!
 

radamfi

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The ticket machines and ticket office windows at Woking display the Solo and Electron symbols.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Solo and Electron is getting increasingly complicated. Some TOCs now accept it at ticket offices and ticket machines at stations as these have a live connection to the authorisation centre to check the card holder has money. Some TOCs do not accept it however, apparently due to the cost and risk. They are not accepted on trains anywhere as on trains there is no way of getting authorisation. Part of the idea of Solo and Electron is that they can only be used on card terminals that can dial up for authorisation. They have no automatically authorised off line limit like other card types.
 

Old Timer

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To get back to the original topic.

In my opinion there is insufficient evidence, on the basis of what has been stated so far, for any Prosecution for fare evasion to be successful. What is missing is any evidence of a deliberate intent to avoid payment.

Fare evasion examines the actions of the person and if the person has attempted to pay for the journey then that is not classed as fare evasion.

It would appear that not all of the pertinent facts are to hand, because any RPI would know that on the basis of what has been said, this would get thrown out in Court, indeed the CPS would not allow it to go forward.
 

radamfi

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Some TOCs do not accept it however, apparently due to the cost and risk.

I would have thought that TOCs would prefer to accept Solo and Electron at ticket offices due to lower bank charges.
 

b0b

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so let me understand, cards without a chip+pin, eg. a foreign credit card, cannot be accepted as payment on trains?
 
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