Fare Evasion

[xedos]

Hi all,
I would like to understand where we stand regarding a charge of fare evasion by a TOC.

A family memeber boarded a train without a valid ticket but with the intention of purchasing one with an electron debit card. Unfortunately it appears that you cannot use elctron cards to purchase tickets and therefore it was refused.

The Guard or revenue protection officer if you will took details and it was thought that it would be a simple case of being billed for the fare.

This appears not to be the case as they have a zero tolerance to fare evasion and are therefore looking to prosecute.

If a method of payment was offered at the time, it would in my humble opinion show that there was no premediated attempt to fare dodge.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[scrapy]

To answer your question more information is needed.

Did the family member board at a staffed station?

Were they issued with any documentation such as a penalty fare or unpaid fares notice?

Were they asked to provide their name/address? if so were the correct details provided?

Have they made any attempt to pay for the fare since the incident?

You say they are looking to prosecute. how do you know this? have they sent out a court summons? TOCs often write to passengers asking them to explain their actions first before a decision is made whether or not to prosecute, has anything like this been recieved?

Also it may help if you gave details of the journey/TOC involved to get the best answers. Rail companies do state clearly on literature that solo/electron cards are not accepted, however obviously not everyone is aware of this.

From the information provided I would have thought if payment was offered for the Anytime single fare to the TOC within a reasonable time (I would suggest sending a cheque recrded delivery to their customer services) then this would significantly reduce the chance of any action.

 

[455driver]

Another new member comes on to have a moan about fares.

How many people don't know about the electron card NOT being acceptable for payment on trains?

 

[Jordy]

Not very welcoming to new members is it? Hardly a "moan about fares" more a request for information!

For someone who hasn't travelled before/doesn't travel regularly it would be quite easy to not realise electron is not acceptable, given that it is accepted pretty much everywhere else these days.

 

[yorkie]

Basically, the railway companies do not accept Electron, it does not count as a valid payment type. They are basically claiming that, because you had no method of payment, the accused therefore intended to avoid payment.

If you get a good lawyer, who is experienced in railway ticketing matters, they may be able to convince the court that this claim of intention to avoid payment is untrue. I do not know what your chances of success are, but if you do not get a good, experienced lawyer, then your chances of success may be greatly reduced and the accused could get a criminal record, which would rule them out of various job opportunities.

Seek legal advice now!

If a method of payment was offered at the time, it would in my humble opinion show that there was no premediated attempt to fare dodge.

A valid method of payment was not offered. It would be for a court to decide whether or not the accused intended to avoid paying the fare e.g. if the accused knew it was an invalid payment type. If the accused can convince the court that it is reasonable to expect a railway company to accept Electron they may have a chance of success. I do not know what the chances of that are, consult a lawyer experienced in railway ticketing matters to find out if the accused has much chance of success...

Another new member comes on to have a moan about fares.

No, to seek advice about fares!

How many people don't know about the electron card NOT being acceptable for payment on trains?

I would actually be very interested to know the answer to that. Perhaps Passenger Focus could conduct a survey....

 

[Mojo]

Some Tocs have started accepting Electron for payment at stations only which can obviously cause problems if you visit the station during scheduled opening hours to find the ticket office closed. Do you know if that occurred in your case?

This happened to me at Haddenham and Thame Parkway (operated by Chiltern Railways) back in 2006. I turned up at the station to find that the ticket office was closed for installation of a new machine. I put some change in the Pertis and when the conductor came round (they are DOO south of Banbury) I bought a ticket from Haddenham and Thame Parkway to Banbury using a combination of the permit and cash. I did not have adequate money to buy the other ticket (a Banbury to Solihull single - I was splitting my journey), and the conductor advised me that I would have to pay at Solihull as she could not accept Electron on her Sportis, but that I would have to first visit the cashpoint as Central Trains (as was) do not accept Electron.

 

[455driver]

Not feeling very welcoming, a simple "hello, long time lurker, sorry to start off with a query for help" or something like that would probably help!

 

[Jordy]

It isn't against the rules to start posting by asking a question, that would be silly! :?

 

[dan_atki]

Not feeling very welcoming, a simple "hello, long time lurker, sorry to start off with a query for help" or something like that would probably help!

If you've had enough of this 'moan about fares' you encounter in this forum then may I kindly suggest you stop reading it, rather than act totally overboard towards new members asking for some advice - the intention of this part of the forum.

Thanks .

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Welcome to the forum, Xedos. This question took me a bit by surprise as I thought I'd seen something a few years back about Visa Electron being scrapped. I remember thinking it was a good thing at the time, as when I'd had Electron many years ago it was as bad as Solo (the Switch alternative) for being rare to find anywhere that accepted Electron or Solo in the UK. Are they now more accepted? I don't recall seeing Electron anywhere recently??

 

[scotsman]

This took me by surprise as I thought I'd seen something a few years back about Visa Electron being phased out. I remember thinking it was a good thing at the time, as when I'd had Electron many years ago it was as bad as Solo (the Switch alternative) for being rare to find anywhere that accepted Electron or Solo in the UK. Are they now more accepted - I don't recall seeing Electron anywhere recently??

Bank of Scotland (so presumably Halifax do too) issue them as basic debit cards.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Bank of Scotland (so presumably Halifax do too) issue them as basic debit cards.

Ah, that's what did it! Thanks! I found it on BBC web archive. It was Abbey and Travelex who were stopping issuing Electron cards just last year! My memory aint what it was! Apparently they were popular with people booking with budget airlines because there was no transaction fee!! It's just the headline of "Visa Electron cards to be phased out" on the BBC which had stuck in my head! :roll:

As to the original enquiry, I can only second what's been said before - I really think they'd have trouble proving intent in a court, and if payment is made quickly by another method, I would have thought they'd let it off as a one-off (and thereby avoid possible legal and court costs, etc.).

 

[455driver]

If you've had enough of this 'moan about fares' you encounter in this forum then may I kindly suggest you stop reading it, rather than act totally overboard towards new members asking for some advice - the intention of this part of the forum.

Thanks .

Fare (sic) point, what will you do report me to my employer!

Good bye from me!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Hi all,
I would like to understand where we stand regarding a charge of fare evasion by a TOC.

A family memeber boarded a train without a valid ticket but with the intention of purchasing one with an electron debit card. Unfortunately it appears that you cannot use elctron cards to purchase tickets and therefore it was refused.

The Guard or revenue protection officer if you will took details and it was thought that it would be a simple case of being billed for the fare.

This appears not to be the case as they have a zero tolerance to fare evasion and are therefore looking to prosecute.

If a method of payment was offered at the time, it would in my humble opinion show that there was no premediated attempt to fare dodge.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

I would think it helpful if the questions in point 2 by scrapy could answered as they may swing things.


At the TOC I work for we are always told to do a TI report (what seems to have happened here) for folk attempting to pay with Electron or Solo, but to issue an unpaid fares notice which gives them 7 days to pay the fare by some other means. No costs, fines or legal proceedings take place provided something happens in 7 days. An UPFN would have been handed to the passenger at the time.

I think a more detailed run down of events may mean we can shed a bit more light on things. Ps - can I ask how old the family member is please?

 

[Ferret]

Hi all,
I would like to understand where we stand regarding a charge of fare evasion by a TOC.

A family memeber boarded a train without a valid ticket but with the intention of purchasing one with an electron debit card. Unfortunately it appears that you cannot use elctron cards to purchase tickets and therefore it was refused.

The Guard or revenue protection officer if you will took details and it was thought that it would be a simple case of being billed for the fare.

This appears not to be the case as they have a zero tolerance to fare evasion and are therefore looking to prosecute.

If a method of payment was offered at the time, it would in my humble opinion show that there was no premediated attempt to fare dodge.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

Hmmm, a tough one. A regular method of fare evasion is to turn up on a train with an Electron card and pretend that you don't know that they aren't accepted. I suspect the key to it is whether the ticket office was staffed at point of origin. If it was, then you may have a problem. I'd get in touch with the TOC's customer relations department urgently, offer to pay the fare now and hope that resolves the matter. If they decline the offer, then as Yorkie suggests, seek legal advice/representation.

 

[moonrakerz]

How many people don't know about the electron card NOT being acceptable for payment on trains?

Well, I must be really stupid - I am in my 60s, have travelled all over the world, been there, seen it, done almost everything - BUT - I now learn that because I didn't know that you couldn't use an Electron card on a train - I have apparently missed out on one of the great facts of life !!

Perhaps the TOCs should put up posters to inform poor souls like me that Electron is NOT acceptable - just like smoking and leaving your suitcase on its own for 5 minutes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....How many people don't know about the electron card NOT being acceptable for payment on trains?

If I had a pound for every person that offered an Electron card for payment of a train ticket, I might not need to buy a lottery ticket!

You do get those that are trying it on, claiming they didn't know, they are usually easier to spot at the ticket office, saying something along the lines of "can't I just buy a ticket at the other end, when I can get to a cash machine?" or "can't I just get it on the train, I have before".

But many think that because it has the Visa symbol on it, it is accepted anywhere that accepts Visa. Some appear to be completely unaware of the difference between the types of card.

I'm sure there are many different scenarios, but in actual fact I rather think it is the minority that know it is not accepted.

 

[Greenback]

Well, I must be really stupid - I am in my 60s, have travelled all over the world, been there, seen it, done almost everything - BUT - I now learn that because I didn't know that you couldn't use an Electron card on a train - I have apparently missed out on one of the great facts of life !!

Perhaps the TOCs should put up posters to inform poor souls like me that Electron is NOT acceptable - just like smoking and leaving your suitcase on its own for 5 minutes.

If I had a pound for every person that offered an Electron card for payment of a train ticket, I might not need to buy a lottery ticket!

You do get those that are trying it on, claiming they didn't know, they are usually easier to spot at the ticket office, saying something along the lines of "can't I just buy a ticket at the other end, when I can get to a cash machine?" or "can't I just get it on the train, I have before".

But many think that because it has the Visa symbol on it, it is accepted anywhere that accepts Visa. Some appear to be completely unaware of the difference between the types of card.

I'm sure there are many different scenarios, but in actual fact I rather think it is the minority that know it is not accepted.

I tend to agree with these views. All ticket offices should have a sign showing which cards are accepted, and which one's aren't, but these notices tend to be pretty small, and are often lost in a sea of other official signage, making them very easy to miss unless you want to spend half an hour reading about station facilities, how to make a complaint, opening times, how abuse of staff will not be tolerated, etc etc before buying your ticket!

I'm not surprised that many people don't know about Electron cards. I;m also not surprised that soem fo those who do will try and take advantage of the fact they are not accepted tot ry and travel for free. In this instance, we really do need more information as it;s not a cut and dried issue. I'm with Ferret, it's a difficult one to judge even with all the relevant info.

 

[Ferret]

I tend to agree with these views. All ticket offices should have a sign showing which cards are accepted, and which one's aren't, but these notices tend to be pretty small, and are often lost in a sea of other official signage, making them very easy to miss unless you want to spend half an hour reading about station facilities, how to make a complaint, opening times, how abuse of staff will not be tolerated, etc etc before buying your ticket!

I'm not surprised that many people don't know about Electron cards. I;m also not surprised that soem fo those who do will try and take advantage of the fact they are not accepted tot ry and travel for free. In this instance, we really do need more information as it;s not a cut and dried issue. I'm with Ferret, it's a difficult one to judge even with all the relevant info.

It's impossible to tell the genuine from the scammers, unless of course you happen to recognise them! Best thing to do from my point of view is do an Unpaid Fares Notice - on ours we have a specific option to tick saying 'Solo/Electron Card' offered. The upshot is that if the same person keeps on getting UFN'd for having an Electron card, they can then be done for attempting to evade the fare. If it's a genuine case of the customer not knowing then the UFN will be paid and there's no problem! I'm a tad surprised that the OP's family member has been threatened with prosecution. If it's the first time that person has been UFN'd/TIR'd for it then the only other justification for it is that the OP walked past an open ticket office thus missing an opportunity to buy a ticket.

 

[EM2]

I'm a CSA at one of the London terminii. Admittedly, I don't work for a TOC but I had no idea that an Electron card wasn't accepted as payment.

 

[Greenback]

That seems a very sensible thing to do Ferret. We don't know in this case whether the person in question has done this before, or whether they have made an honest mistake. I wouldn't expect someone to be prosecuted for intent to evade if this was the first time it had happened to them, especially given the genuine confusion there is over Electron cards, unless, as you say, they have deliberately not bought a ticket when the opportunity was there before boarding.

But what would someone do if they tried at aTVM, and a message such as 'not accepted' or 'card not authorised comes up? (I don;t know what the TVM would say, fortunately I don't have one of the wretched cards AFAIK!) Would they think the machine was faulty and get on the train? Would and should they then be penalised?

Sorry if this opens up another can of worms which may be unrelated to the original post!

 

[Ferret]

Greenback - they should just be UFN'd as far as I'm concerned - it's a big leap to talk about fare evasion in these circumstances that the OP describes, let alone what you've just mentioned!

Tbh, I'd like to know some more details from the OP - based on what we know from the first post, it's a bit of a tenuous allegation of actual fare evasion right now.

 

[yorkie]

It's not infeasible that some TOCs will accuse you of fare evading for trying to pay with an Electron card. Although I don't agree with it, and although IANAL I'd like to think a good lawyer should get such an allegation dismissed as unprovable, I can see that if there are TOCs who believe that, as some guards say, people are deliberately 'acting dumb' they are going to try to stop it, and what better way than to scare them by suggesting they are doing so deliberately?

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the more 'anti-customer' TOCs, the likes of FCC for example who seem to assume guilt, are far more willing to prosecute than the likes of TPE and XC. Especially given that XC and TPE do have a policy of selling full-fare tickets on board. FCC, for example, do not, and their policy is that you must buy before boarding. We don't know what TOC the OP used.

 

[Greenback]

Greenback - they should just be UFN'd as far as I'm concerned - it's a big leap to talk about fare evasion in these circumstances that the OP describes, let alone what you've just mentioned!

Tbh, I'd like to know some more details from the OP - based on what we know from the first post, it's a bit of a tenuous allegation of actual fare evasion right now.

Agreed

It's not infeasible that some TOCs will accuse you of fare evading for trying to pay with an Electron card. Although I don't agree with it, and although IANAL I'd like to think a good lawyer should get such an allegation dismissed as unprovable, I can see that if there are TOCs who believe that, as EM2 says, people are deliberately 'acting dumb' they are going to try to stop it, and what better way than to scare them by suggesting they are doing so deliberately?

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the more 'anti-customer' TOCs, the likes of FCC for example who seem to assume guilt, are far more willing to prosecute than the likes of TPE and XC. Especially given that XC and TPE do have a policy of selling full-fare tickets on board. FCC, for example, do not, and their policy is that you must buy before boarding. We don't know what TOC the OP used.

I wouldn;t expect anyone to be prosecuted unless the TOC had evidence that would support the intent. This could include previous instances of being caught without a ticket, or having no alternative maans to pay (including cash) AND having boarded at a station where there was an open ticket office.

I don't like it when guilt is assumed without full knowledge of the facts, and I agree that some TOC's are to quick to judge their own customers negatively. (To a certain extent I beleive the PF system encourages this attitude).

Yet I also believe that there are a few unscrupulous individuals out there who will try and use every loophole they discover, and that it is fair and reasonable for TOC's to try and deal with them, preferably by prosecuting them and then banning them from their trains if found guilty!

 

[EM2]

... I can see that if there are TOCs who believe that, as EM2 says, people are deliberately 'acting dumb' ...

WOAH! Hang on a minute! At *no* point did I say that. I said I work at a major station, I don't work for a TOC and I had no idea until reading this thread that Electron was not accepted for payment when buying tickets.
That is *all* I said.

 

[reb0118]

This is a common problem in Scotland. I come across two to three incidences per shift of people trying to pay with Visa Electron. (I've not seen Solo cards for a while though?).

If time permits I will TI them (complete a Ticket Irregularity form) using the details on the card as verification and also log details into my Train Book for future reference. I will let the person travel, as at this stage there is no proof of any wrong doing, but politely and firmly explain that Electron is not an acceptable method of payment. I will require them to pay for their journey at the first suitable point where they can obtain suitable means to do so.

If I come across the same person again attempting to use Electron I will complete a second TI form & submit with the first & pass their details & description to the Fraud & Security Dept, & also to my local depot.

If I come across the person again I will attempt to ascertain that they have a valid ticket or the means to pay prior to allowing them to travel or if found already on board will TI them again this time marking the form as a persistent avoider and put them off at the next station - although I will use discretion in the case of vulnerable passengers.

Three strikes and you're off!!

 

[Greenback]

Three strikes and you're off and then prosecuted I hope!

Nothing to disagree with there reb!

 

[radamfi]

What is the chance of meeting the same guard three times? Do guards in Scotland do the same rotas day in day out? On my regular trips on Southern and SWT I almost never see the same guard twice.

 

[yorkie]

3 Un-Paid Fare Notices (UPFNs or UFNs) by 3 different guards should do the trick, no need to see the same guard. If someone tried to pay with Electron 3 times and acted dumb each time, then I believe that would be sufficient evidence (IANAL - I am not a lawyer) and this is not legal advice, but my opinion. If someone did that, they'd have to be pretty dishonest, stupid and deserve to be caught.

 

[jon0844]

Even two times for something like this should prompt legal action. You shouldn't need to be told twice!

I would say that most card issuers/banks should (and probably do) explain the restrictions of such cards. The users could arguably be expected to know without reading signs and warnings at stations or on machines.

However, this is a perfect example of where you use discretion and can let someone off the first time - unless you've caught them not making any attempt to pay and THEN they produce that card, as if it's a 'get out of jail card'. I wouldn't be surprised to learn there are forums where people share tips on how to get away without paying (or being prosecuted) and someone has said that this is a nice easy trick.

But, that doesn't automatically mean I'm accusing anyone here of doing that.