Fare dodger

[dvboy]

I witnessed a fare dodger get chucked off a Birmingham-Liverpool service at Smethwick Galton Bridge today, the guard just let him get off the train rather than penalty fare him which I thought unusual.

To be fair though, he was pretty compliant, and the guard asked "you're not bothered really, are you?" to which he shook his head, and it was literally just before SGB so she probably didn't want to hold the service up. Is there a bit of discretion involved when it comes to fare dodgers if they are compliant and is keeping the service on time a priority?

The guard saw that he left the platform and didn't just jump straight back on further down the train, but he would have probably come straight back and got on the next stopper/ATW service, I'd be interested to hear people's views on this kind of action.

 

[First class]

Up to the offender really. If they know the script, they'd probably prefer to do one. I'd rather a conductor threw them off rather than letting them stay on and going through an UPFN which I will never be able to reclaim/find them.

Our "guards" can't Penalty Fare, only authorised collectors can (RPIs).

Train performance = priority.

 

[142094]

Safety and punctuality come before revenue. Stopping someone for what could just be a few quid might result in delays that run into the £'000s.

I'd much prefer it if there were more roving RPIs who can kick someone off a train and do the UPFN on the platform.

 

[dvboy]

Our "guards" can't Penalty Fare, only authorised collectors can (RPIs).

Wasn't aware of that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The potential for knock on delays on double track Wolves to New St section are horrendous given the volume of traffic going off in all directions and across several TOCS.

Suppose you could carry them to next gated station but contractors NR use at New St are always half asleep I flashed a Cwmbran Plus Bus dated a few days before at them as a "test" once - I sailed through. (I did have "correct" ticket). VT do not always man Wolves.

 

[dvboy]

Safety and punctuality come before revenue. Stopping someone for what could just be a few quid might result in delays that run into the £'000s.

I'd much prefer it if there were more roving RPIs who can kick someone off a train and do the UPFN on the platform.

Of course he may have only been going to SGB anyway. Had he been caught between there and WVH he probably could have been dealt with by BTP who were on the platform (probably more for the football).

 

[lookingforit35]

Our "guards" can't Penalty Fare, only authorised collectors can (RPIs).

.

I suppose next best is to ensure the fare dodger gets maximum inconvenience. So kicking them off is a good compromise, albeit not half as good as a penalty fare/prosecution.

 

[First class]

I suppose next best is to ensure the fare dodger gets maximum inconvenience. So kicking them off is a good compromise, albeit not half as good as a penalty fare/prosecution.

Even if prosecuted/PFd, there is no guarantee they will ever pay the fine/compensation. Kicking them off is a good solution when they haven't travelled very far in the first place and only a low value fare has been evaded.

 

[yorkie]

I witnessed a fare dodger get chucked off a Birmingham-Liverpool service at Smethwick Galton Bridge today, the guard just let him get off the train rather than penalty fare him which I thought unusual. .

I'm very confused.

If someone is refusing to pay the fare, how can they be charged a penalty fare?

A penalty fare is a fare that is charged to people who make certain types of honest mistakes e.g. losing a ticket, forgetting to bring a railcard, etc when boarding a Penalty Fare train at a Penalty Fare station.

 

[87015]

Even if prosecuted/PFd, there is no guarantee they will ever pay the fine/compensation. Kicking them off is a good solution when they haven't travelled very far in the first place and only a low value fare has been evaded.

But they'd evidently got through the LM-staffed barrier at New St which is ''LM Quality Approved'', so what went wrong there?

Perhaps the LM strategy of Form 1'in the guard will really help the issue...

 

[Minilad]

But they'd evidently got through the LM-staffed barrier at New St which is ''LM Quality Approved'', so what went wrong there?

Perhaps the LM strategy of Form 1'in the guard will really help the issue...

Who said he started the journey at New Street. He could have come in on another service so would have not had any cause to go through the barrier

 

[dvboy]

Who said he started the journey at New Street. He could have come in on another service so would have not had any cause to go through the barrier

He had a Selfridges shopping bag so it's more than likely. As we all know, he could have flashed anything at the barrier staff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm very confused.

If someone is refusing to pay the fare, how can they be charged a penalty fare?

A penalty fare is a fare that is charged to people who make certain types of honest mistakes e.g. losing a ticket, forgetting to bring a railcard, etc when boarding a Penalty Fare train at a Penalty Fare station.

Penalty fare, UFPN, whatever. Very confusing system.

Posters all over the LM network and the backs of tickets issued on board make it clear it would be a penalty fare.

The reason is irrelevant imo.

 

[Crossover]

I have seen fare evaders get "kicked off" a service before. Was about 18 months ago on an all shacks between MKC (possibly actually came from Northampton or such) and Euston and the guard found a couple of lads without tickets. They had no obvious means to pay and before long the guard was joined by another staff member (possibly an RPI)

Can't remember the full story but they were advised to leave the train at one of the smaller WCML stops, which they did without too much ado.

 

[ainsworth74]

Penalty fare, UFPN, whatever. Very confusing system.

Even more reason to ensure we're talking about the right thing I would thought!

 

[SS4]

I think the address should be taken down and a bill sent to the person's house. Sorted.

That's essentially what a UPFN is. It also depends on the fare dodger giving the correct address

 

[First class]

I think the address should be taken down and a bill sent to the person's house. Sorted.

That requires:

1) Time
2) Person to co-operate and provide correct details
3) Details to be verified
4) Guard to write report
5) Head office to process report and associated admin
6) Person to receive letter and actually be able to pay
7) Payment to be processed or
referred to a DCA with costs written off.

For a fare under £10 or under 10 minutes, unless an RPI is available, try and persuade them to alight, failing that walk away and make a small note of their description in your notebook. Better to concentrate your resources and energy on customers who aren't tw@ts.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Per both of you. But surely the train journey would last more than 10 minutes to the next stop/stop after if you're feeling harsh? I've always wanted to leave a fare dodger somewhere where there's no other trains for the next 2 hours. (Payback is fun when you're me.)

 

[yorkie]

Penalty fare, UFPN, whatever. Very confusing system.

An unpaid fare notice is issued to someone who is willing to pay the fare who provides correct details and can be billed later. For instance someone on the incorrect train on EC with an Advance will generally be offered the chance to pay later and be issued a UPFN (EC do not expect people to have a spare £100 on them!).

I do not see how an unpaid fare notice can be issued to someone who is refusing to pay a fare.

Posters all over the LM network and the backs of tickets issued on board make it clear it would be a penalty fare.

If you see any posters that state that anyone who is refusing to pay the fare will be charged a penalty fare then I'd like to see them as that would be utterly bizarre.

The reason is irrelevant imo.

??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Per both of you. But surely the train journey would last more than 10 minutes to the next stop/stop after if you're feeling harsh?

You are guessing that it takes "more than 10 minutes" to get from Smethwick Galton Bridge to Wolverhampton? Well, not quite, it takes 10 minutes, but in that time the guard has other duties to perform. Unlike my EC example above, fares are not supposed to be sold on LM trains from Birmingham New Street as these trains are Penalty Fare trains and the customer originated at a Penalty Fare station where it is "compulsory" to purchase before boarding. If a passenger has no ticket but is willing to buy one e.g. they lost the ticket, then unless there was a good reason (see NRCoC) a Penalty Fare would be issued (assuming the person checking the ticket was an authorised collector), but you can not issue any sort of fare to someone who is refusing to pay a fare! If someone is deliberately trying to avoid payment/refusing to pay the fare, then they should be reported for prosecution and/or asked to leave/removed from the train/met by BTP.

I've always wanted to leave a fare dodger somewhere where there's no other trains for the next 2 hours. (Payback is fun when you're me.)

I've heard of dodgers being dumped at Ulleskelf before! It can be a longer wait than 2 hours there at certain times!

 

[dvboy]

Yorkie i will take a photo tomorrow, I see them everywhere. Thanks for clarification in the second half of your last post.

We were just approaching SGB when she turfed him off, and had door duty to do. Probably did the only practical thing she could. There are rarely any staff apart from ticket office at SGB.

She'd not even made it halfway through the train yet.

 

[yorkie]

Do they look like this? If so, that does not mean that someone who is dodging / refusing to pay should be issued with such a fare. There is a good explanation at the NXEA Penalty Fares FAQ. (This is still applicable to LM; the legislation is the same).

If someone is refusing to pay a fare then the chances of obtaining correct details to bill them are unlikely. If they are refusing to pay on the day then they are unlikely to pay later.

15. Do Penalty Fares apply to ‘fare dodgers’?
A penalty fare is simply a charge that National Express East Anglia is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. ‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under criminal law

Penalty Fares are for honest mistakes. If they were issued as fines for people who are refusing to pay a fare, that would be illegal and a misuse of the legislation.

 

[dvboy]

Can't see the picture you've linked to; I'm afraid.

 

[yorkie]

I linked to the standard Penalty Fare posters (LM may use non-standard ones too, but they must also use the official ones which must be in prominent places).

The link works for me so I am guessing that site blocks requests that are not viewing the full page. Another example is here.

 

[455driver]

I think the address should be taken down and a bill sent to the person's house. Sorted.

Quite agree my name and address is-

Mickey Mouse
Disneyland
Paris.

I take it you do not deal with the "lower end" of society on a regular basis?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think the address should be taken down and a bill sent to the person's house. Sorted.

Have you anything, even vaguely, resembling knowledge, experience or qualification to support what you 'think'?

Please get back on here when you've done some analysis of systems which attept to work along the lines you've proposed. For a start, could I suggest you study The Criminal Justice System and its attempts to enforce Fines, Compensation and Penalties.
There are very many more people than the few reading this forum who are patiently waiting for that solution.

 

[AlterEgo]

But they'd evidently got through the LM-staffed barrier at New St which is ''LM Quality Approved'', so what went wrong there?

Perhaps the LM strategy of Form 1'in the guard will really help the issue...

They may not have had to pass the barrier. They could have used the lifts. Oldest trick in the book at BHM...

 

[district]

Gatelines at Birmingham New Street are awful. I heard someone got through with a Bite card, and to be honest just showing them an orange piece of carboard will suffice!

I think the address should be taken down and a bill sent to the person's house. Sorted.

This is a very naive point of view. Either that you are very young or you do not working in a public facing role. Many people who decide to fare evade will be undesirables who either have a) no intention of providing details or b) no fixed address.

How do you deal with them? Stop the train at the next station and call the BTP? I don't think so. Whether you agree with it or not, it's punctality over revenue. Delays cost a lot of money for TOC's and reclaiming a fare will not be considered worth the hassle or expense.

 

[jon0844]

Delaying the train would be costly, but the industry must be well aware that by not coming down hard on people - they effectively encourage it, and it gets worse.

It's a tough call and I see why they go with the easy option, but perhaps there needs to be more sting operations that show zero tolerance. In these cases, you have police on board some trains in the first place and get people off and deal with them - possibly in a group. Do this at random times over a long period of time and you might deter people.

The police nearly always find people wanted for other offences, have skipped bail etc - so I am always amazed that these sorts of operation aren't carried out as a matter of course anyway, possibly with local police forces as well as BTP.

 

[reb0118]

Delaying the train would be costly, but the industry must be well aware that by not coming down hard on people - they effectively encourage it, and it gets worse.

It's a tough call and I see why they go with the easy option, but perhaps there needs to be more sting operations that show zero tolerance. In these cases, you have police on board some trains in the first place and get people off and deal with them - possibly in a group. Do this at random times over a long period of time and you might deter people.

The police nearly always find people wanted for other offences, have skipped bail etc - so I am always amazed that these sorts of operation aren't carried out as a matter of course anyway, possibly with local police forces as well as BTP.

This smacks of common sense. Just as well the railways don't run the GULAGs or you might get a 4am wake up call.

Seriously though good post.

 

[jon0844]

If the police bring along metal detectors and/or drug sniffer dogs, that often gets a few good results (certainly the latter).

Criminals seem to like using public transport (quite obvious really, if they have marked vehicles, or no tax/insurance etc) so the police pretty much sit and wait for the criminals to come to them. Yet, I've been told by staff at stations that they're very expensive to organise. Erm, compared to what? Leaving criminals free to commit more crime?!

 

[142094]

Delaying the train would be costly, but the industry must be well aware that by not coming down hard on people - they effectively encourage it, and it gets worse.

It's a tough call and I see why they go with the easy option, but perhaps there needs to be more sting operations that show zero tolerance. In these cases, you have police on board some trains in the first place and get people off and deal with them - possibly in a group. Do this at random times over a long period of time and you might deter people.

The police nearly always find people wanted for other offences, have skipped bail etc - so I am always amazed that these sorts of operation aren't carried out as a matter of course anyway, possibly with local police forces as well as BTP.

It's often done on Metro systems, and seems to be quite effective at stations just before a major area or before an outlying terminus. At the penultimate station the train stops, RPIs board and quickly check tickets, then those without are led to the platform to be dealth with, usually with BTP/Police support. Doing this for every train that passes throuh certainly catches a lot of people in a very short space of time.