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Far-right protests

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jon0844

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Stop accepting asylum claims until we sort out the mess we are in?

That's sometimes the unfortunate outcome with protests, this is an example, so was the BLM protests.

What is your solution?
Hurry up the claims, not stop. Otherwise we're going to have many thousands more people sitting in hotels and other accomodation unable to contribute to our economy.

Let people work and improve their skills, or fail their claim and be sent home.

Protest our Government for not doing more, which could include allowing people to claim asylum in France and therefore be deemed illegal if they then cross the channel. Until there's a legal route, they're fully entitled to come on a dinghy.
 
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BigDog

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Hurry up the claims, not stop. Otherwise we're going to have many thousands more people sitting in hotels and other accomodation unable to contribute to our economy.

Let people work and improve their skills, or fail their claim and be sent home.

Protest our Government for not doing more, which could include allowing people to claim asylum in France and therefore be deemed illegal if they then cross the channel. Until there's a legal route, they're fully entitled to come on a dinghy.
You are completely ignoring the financial ruin our country is in, our services are on their knees. You are also ignoring the crime and cultural implications mass immigration brings.
 

Dent

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You are completely ignoring the financial ruin our country is in, our services are on their knees. You are also ignoring the crime and cultural implications mass immigration brings.
If you are trying to deny being racist and xenophobic then making multiple posts linking immigration to crime and "cultural implications", whatever that means, doesn't exactly help your case.
 

ainsworth74

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So what is your suggestion for a solution then?
I dunno we could try something radical like actually making asylum decisions? Then either they'll be granted status to remain in the UK and have the possibility to start working and earning a living in the UK or, if their claim fails we should swiftly deport them (pending the outcome of any appeals, which should also be resolved promptly).

Might also not be a bad idea to think about ways we can make use of the more skilled asylum seekers who are successful in their claims to put their skills to use. We need more doctors and nurses in the NHS, so we should be leaning into schemes like the British Medical Associations refugee doctors initiative:

We believe refugee doctors make a valuable contribution to the delivery of healthcare services in the UK.

This guide is a starting point, with sources of help, to help you find your feet in the UK and become a doctor.

[...]

BMA refugee doctor initiative

The refugee doctor initiative is free and provides you with a range of benefits to help suitably trained doctors to get their licence to practice in the UK.


I imagine there's other refugees that live in the UK with in demand skills who cannot use them due to problems with evidencing their competence and the lack of cross-acceptance of previous awarded certificates.

You are also ignoring the crime and cultural implications mass immigration brings.

Good job that the number of asylum claims is only about 60,000 a year. Not sure that 60,000 extra people a year is really going to make that much of a difference in a country of 67 odd million. Quite apart from the fact that we've always managed to integrate, often far more successfully than elsewhere, newcomers to this country. It's something we're actually quite good at.

As for the crime aspect this is obviously more complex but it is worth noting that crime in general has continued to fall over the long term (even if it does get more play in the media that it used to) and also that I rather suspect that the rates of crime between asylum seekers/refugees and the UK born population are not all that different. Particularly if you compare them with those UK born citizens who live in deprived areas. A lot of crime has far more to do with poverty and lack of opportunity than whether you were born in the UK or not.
 

BigDog

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If you are trying to deny being racist and xenophobic then making multiple posts linking immigration to crime and "cultural implications", whatever that means, doesn't exactly help your case.
The stats are there to read, the facts are ethnic minorities disproportionately dominate violent crime rates, make of that what you will.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I dunno we could try something radical like actually making asylum decisions? Then either they'll be granted status to remain in the UK and have the possibility to start working and earning a living in the UK or, if their claim fails we should swiftly deport them (pending the outcome of any appeals, which should also be resolved promptly).

Might also not be a bad idea to think about ways we can make use of the more skilled asylum seekers who are successful in their claims to put their skills to use. We need more doctors and nurses in the NHS, so we should be leaning into schemes like the British Medical Associations refugee doctors initiative:




I imagine there's other refugees that live in the UK with in demand skills who cannot use them due to problems with evidencing their competence and the lack of cross-acceptance of previous awarded certificates.



Good job that the number of asylum claims is only about 60,000 a year. Not sure that 60,000 extra people a year is really going to make that much of a difference in a country of 67 odd million. Quite apart from the fact that we've always managed to integrate, often far more successfully than elsewhere, newcomers to this country. It's something we're actually quite good at.

As for the crime aspect this is obviously more complex but it is worth noting that crime in general has continued to fall over the long term (even if it does get more play in the media that it used to) and also that I rather suspect that the rates of crime between asylum seekers/refugees and the UK born population are not all that different. Particularly if you compare them with those UK born citizens who live in deprived areas. A lot of crime has far more to do with poverty and lack of opportunity than whether you were born in the UK or not.
Yes it is complicated, but to deny there's any cultural element in this is being ignorant in my opinion.
 

BigDog

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And it is a fact that many people from ethnic minorities are not immigrants.
Ok, but the cultural element does have an impact.

For example, say a bunch of first generation migrants, from a culture in which oppression and violence against woman is high, chances are, their offspring will follow this behaviour. 4 generations later you then want to ignore the cultural influence this has on their behaviour?
 
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Dent

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Ok, but the cultural element does have a bearing.
What "cultural element"?

Making excuses for xenophobia is still not helping your case to claim that you are not xenophobic.
 

Haywain

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For example, say a bunch of first generation migrants, from a culture in which oppression and violence against woman is high, chances are, their offspring will follow this behaviour. 4 generations later you then want to ignore the cultural influence this has on their behaviour?
What has any of this got to do with protesting outside a hotel holding people who have just arrived in the country?
 

BigDog

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What has any of this got to do with protesting outside a hotel holding people who have just arrived in the country?
You're now deflecting, you know full well we weren't debating that particular incident at this particular moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm just informing everyone, I'm out. We will never agree on matters and we will just continue going around in circles, thanks.
 
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jon81uk

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Why, because of reality? Our government can't even look after our own pensioners let alone career training and campaigns to help refugee employment issues. So, what we have is thousands of new people each year having to rely on the state, a state that's in ruin, it's complete lunacy.

Stop accepting asylum claims until we sort out the mess we are in?

That's sometimes the unfortunate outcome with protests, this is an example, so was the BLM protests.

What is your solution?

You are completely ignoring the financial ruin our country is in, our services are on their knees. You are also ignoring the crime and cultural implications mass immigration brings.

I'd rather process someones asylum claim and give them a small amount of training so they can work and pay taxes instead of the government having to pay for hotels while they take years to process applications.
Much better to have someones claim done within weeks of them arriving, give them some quick support and training at a job centre and get them into work within months. Instead of them sitting doing nothing in a hotel for years costing the goverment money instead of paying taxes to the government.
We need to start accepting (or rejecting) claims instead of keeping people on hold for years. Thats how they get bored and resort to crime because they are not allowed a real income.
 

yorkie

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You're now deflecting, you know full well we weren't debating that particular incident at this particular moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm just informing everyone, I'm out. We will never agree on matters and we will just continue going around in circles, thanks.
It's probably for the best; the others are spot on with what they are saying and you have been caught out.

I am not sure what is causing you to have these views but I note from another thread that:
I have worked on the railway for over 20 years now and for the last few years I have been struggling with metal health issues.
I am sorry to hear this and I hope you can seek some help, however holding anti-immigrant views is not going to help; holding such views, and getting into arguments with right-minded people is only going to make you feel worse.

Hopefully things can improve for you soon and maybe you will see the world in a more positive light in due course.
 

GusB

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We need to be really careful about confusing what we hear/read with what is actually happening. Until recently one of the hotels in my local town was used to house asylum-seekers. I heard various stories about this and that happening but I ignored most of it because the people who spread such nonsense generally have an axe to grind against immigrants/foreigners in general and, to be quite frank, they're racist twits. They're the same people who would complain that immigrants are taking all the jobs, but in the next breath would rant about the fact that they're all lounging about and living off the state!

For a start we shouldn't be confusing "immigrant" with "asylum seeker", but if any prospective asylum seekers are causing trouble and reports have been made to the police, it's not exactly going to look good when it comes to having their application heard, is it? That said, just as there is a proportion of our native population who participate in criminal behaviour, it's quite reasonable to assume that some asylum seekers may also indulge in nefarious activities. Is it surprising that people get up to mischief when boredom is such a major factor? We complain about the idle youth and how they get up to no good rather than going out to get jobs; people who are waiting to have asylum applications processed don't have that choice - they're not permitted to work.

I'd rather see asylum seekers being granted temporary work permits so that they can support themselves while they await a decision on their applications. If they're working legally, they'd be entitled to earn at least the minimum wage and they'd be at less risk of being exploited by fly-by-night employers.
 

AlterEgo

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You are completely ignoring the financial ruin our country is in, our services are on their knees. You are also ignoring the crime and cultural implications mass immigration brings.
You're now deflecting, you know full well we weren't debating that particular incident at this particular moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm just informing everyone, I'm out. We will never agree on matters and we will just continue going around in circles, thanks.
You were the one digging up a long-dead thread to let us know your concerns.

The country isn't in financial ruin because of asylum claims, and your "cultural implications" is just dog whistling. You do not seem to be a happy person and that is not the fault of other groups in society; I hope things improve for you, and you grow to realise this.
 

jon0844

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The biggest scandal in all of this seems to be that the Government had no interest in processing applications quickly. We awarded contracts to some hotel chains to take over a whole hotel for asylum seekers - which they presumably figured was more cost effective than running as a hotel. People seem to think they're one to a room and enjoying buffet breakfasts and room service, but I expect the service provision is minimal and highly lucrative - and who knows if the Tories got a nice backhander for helping out.

It all stinks because asylum seekers don't want to be in a hotel for the rest of their life. Most could work and most aren't here to do nasty things, like act as a terrorist sleeper cell that so many people on the right want us to believe (hence the 'fighting age males' line). I am sure there are some people who really shouldn't be here, which is the whole point of doing the checks.

Labour needs to take a lead on working out a solution, and also we need better information about how big the issue really is. 99% of those interviewed over immigration always say this country is full, while the people who keep pushing that narrative are simultaneously telling English people to have more babies as we need to increase the population.

Naturally this feeds into the 'white replacement theory'. Less foreigners, more white English. Once again, I single out England because it's rarely the same thought in Scotland or Wales.
 

AlterEgo

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The biggest scandal in all of this seems to be that the Government had no interest in processing applications quickly. We awarded contracts to some hotel chains to take over a whole hotel for asylum seekers - which they presumably figured was more cost effective than running as a hotel. People seem to think they're one to a room and enjoying buffet breakfasts and room service, but I expect the service provision is minimal and highly lucrative - and who knows if the Tories got a nice backhander for helping out.
Most asylum hotels are miserable places. Travelodges, Britannia hotels, and sketchy BnBs. Living in those is not pleasant or fun.
 

Haywain

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which they presumably figured was more cost effective than running as a hotel
I think that in the immediate post-Covid world guaranteed income alongside reduced costs was a great relief.
 

jon0844

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Most asylum hotels are miserable places. Travelodges, Britannia hotels, and sketchy BnBs. Living in those is not pleasant or fun.

Some of those weren't even nice when used as regular hotels!

I think that in the immediate post-Covid world guaranteed income alongside reduced costs was a great relief.

Absolutely. But we can't now just carry on giving hotel chains loads of money to keep people in there forever more. We need to work to clearing the huge backlog and finding a solution - such as creating a 'legal route' via France where claims can be made there. I'm pretty sure France has always said that would be possible, for a fee of course, but how much are we wasting right now - while we have loads of healthcare jobs vacant and people who are qualified in those sectors looking out of their windows to see if anyone is trying to murder them.
 

bleeder4

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We need to get our own house in order first before we can take on others. Health and social care are already in a dire strait, so adding to that is just making the issue worse. It's like if you live in a small flat and you suddenly get a knock on your front door to find a big party of 30 people all wanting somewhere to stay for a few days. You'll have to turn them down. You don't have the living space for them, you don't have the food for them all, the sleeping space, the washing facilities etc. Sure, you can put in some phone calls and see if you can find somewhere for these 30 people to stay, but that will take time and you can't have them all hanging around at yours until you find somewhere.
 

jon81uk

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We need to get our own house in order first before we can take on others. Health and social care are already in a dire strait, so adding to that is just making the issue worse. It's like if you live in a small flat and you suddenly get a knock on your front door to find a big party of 30 people all wanting somewhere to stay for a few days. You'll have to turn them down. You don't have the living space for them, you don't have the food for them all, the sleeping space, the washing facilities etc. Sure, you can put in some phone calls and see if you can find somewhere for these 30 people to stay, but that will take time and you can't have them all hanging around at yours until you find somewhere.
Then as suggested we process the asylum claims faster and then those people get to work doing health care jobs. Also they would be paying taxes funding services.
 

nw1

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We need to get our own house in order first before we can take on others. Health and social care are already in a dire strait, so adding to that is just making the issue worse. It's like if you live in a small flat and you suddenly get a knock on your front door to find a big party of 30 people all wanting somewhere to stay for a few days. You'll have to turn them down. You don't have the living space for them, you don't have the food for them all, the sleeping space, the washing facilities etc. Sure, you can put in some phone calls and see if you can find somewhere for these 30 people to stay, but that will take time and you can't have them all hanging around at yours until you find somewhere.

OK, so there are 30 asylum seekers for every one, two or three British resident(s)? Right.
 

jon0844

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We need to get our own house in order first before we can take on others. Health and social care are already in a dire strait, so adding to that is just making the issue worse. It's like if you live in a small flat and you suddenly get a knock on your front door to find a big party of 30 people all wanting somewhere to stay for a few days. You'll have to turn them down. You don't have the living space for them, you don't have the food for them all, the sleeping space, the washing facilities etc. Sure, you can put in some phone calls and see if you can find somewhere for these 30 people to stay, but that will take time and you can't have them all hanging around at yours until you find somewhere.
Those long waiting lists for NHS appointments and short staffing in care homes comes from huge vacancies, much of which comes down to people going home post Brexit and low pay seeing many seek work elsewhere, such as Australia.

And here you have thousands of people that could fix the issues you're worried about, or at least claim to be because there's every chance you voted Tory or Reform that both have little care for the NHS.
 

AlterEgo

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It's like if you live in a small flat and you suddenly get a knock on your front door to find a big party of 30 people all wanting somewhere to stay for a few days.
No it isn't. How is this remotely similar?
 

bleeder4

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No it isn't. How is this remotely similar?
The "small flat" in my analogy is the UK. We are a small country. Just like the small flat doesn't have the capacity to accommodate an unexpected large crowd of people, nor too do we. We can't even support our own citizens at the moment, never mind other country's citizens.
 

ainsworth74

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Those long waiting lists for NHS appointments and short staffing in care homes comes from huge vacancies, much of which comes down to people going home post Brexit and low pay seeing many seek work elsewhere, such as Australia.
Indeed, For instasnce nursing. We appear to have a shortfall of somewhere in the region of 40,000 full-time equivilant posts:

“Nursing remains a key area of shortfall: in NHS trusts, while registered nurses and health visitors make up around a quarter (26%) of FTE (full-time equivalent) roles, nurse vacancies accounted for more than a third (35%, around 43,600 FTE) of all vacancies in the quarter to December 2022.”

It's almost as if making the career less appealing by underpaying the staff and then going to the mat when they do finally ask for a pay rise might have been having a poor impact on retention. Quite apart from the various cuts to nurses training placements made a decade or so ago meaning that we face a declining number of applicants (and a declining number of placements). Similar story for doctors and other roles within the NHS meaning we have a huge number of vacancies:

Vacancy rates​

Vacancies remain a big concern, with an estimated 111,000 posts currently unfilled substantively. Although the NHS workforce has been growing, demand for NHS services has been growing faster, and the health service has not been able to recruit and retain sufficient staff to keep up. As well as doctors and nurses, vacancy rates are high for other NHS staff, including allied health professionals such as physiotherapists and occupational therapists. Although some substantive posts are filled temporarily by bank and agency staff, this can be costly to the NHS.

Of course we can backfill some of that via locums and bank staff but that's costly which means we're paying even more money out whilst still not solving the original problem. But I'm sure it all made sense on some spreadsheet somewhere in the depths of HM Treasury and that the Tories were all to happy to set up a situation which would eventually cause failure sometime in the dim future.

Now, if only there were a group of people who might be after a job? Even if they've not got the qualifications from their country of origin to be relevant to more complex healthcare roles like nursing or doctoring, we've got plenty of shortages in social care as well which you can get qualified in much more quickly (year or two I believe).

The "small flat" in my analogy is the UK. We are a small country. Just like the small flat doesn't have the capacity to accommodate an unexpected large crowd of people, nor too do we. We can't even support our own citizens at the moment, never mind other country's citizens.
If a country of 67 million cannot absorb 97,000 asylum seekers we really must be stuffed (not that they'd all be granted refugee or humanitarian protection statuses)!

There were 75,658 asylum applications (relating to 97,107 people) in the UK in the year ending June 2024.

 
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AlterEgo

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The "small flat" in my analogy is the UK. We are a small country. Just like the small flat doesn't have the capacity to accommodate an unexpected large crowd of people, nor too do we. We can't even support our own citizens at the moment, never mind other country's citizens.
But we don't live in a small flat. The United Kingdom has about 70 million people in it and we get about 80,000 claims for asylum a year. Something like 0.001% of the population.
 

Haywain

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Just like the small flat doesn't have the capacity to accommodate an unexpected large crowd of people, nor too do we.
And to add to the points above we don't have a significant housing shortage either, we have a significant shortage of affordable housing and a market that doesn't encourage increasing the availability of it.
 

bleeder4

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If a country of 67 million cannot absorb 97,000 asylum seekers we really must be stuffed (not that they'd all be granted refugee or humanitarian protection statuses)!
Indeed. Precisely my point. We can't absorb that number, and are indeed "stuffed" as you put it.
 
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