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Far-right protests

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SteveP29

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"Bother" at football matches is actually rather unusual these days because it is well policed and the penalties are stiff. These people are much more likely to be the sort who live on sink estates and like nothing more than goading the police and anyone else.

Correct.
And kn*bheads who use football as an excuse for a punchup, don't do it in grounds, as you say, because of the police presence and CCTV, they know each other from England 'duty' and are probably friendly all year round except when their clubs meet. They will organise a date, time and place by WhatsApp etc, far away from the ground so that there are as few links to the football as possible

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

He hardly came out of the plane crash unscathed. Punctured lung, broken ribs, fractured sternum, chipped vertebrae. I'm amazed he was able to walk away with those injuries.

Point take, but he still came out of it better than the poor plane, which probably had more use than him.
 
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ainsworth74

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I feel awful saying it and I never wish harm on other people, but it makes me think of that poor plane all smashed to pieces, yet he wasn't.
I've occasionally wondered what might have been if he had not survived that crash. It was 2010 so well before EU membership was anything other than the preserve of cranks and before the real rise of UKIP (only 3.1% of the vote in the subsequent election) in the years leading up to 2016 (their 2014 performance at the EU elections where they'd win 26.6% of the vote was still four years away). Do events play out in anything like the same way without the talismanic Farage at the head of UKIP for that critical period? That's quite apart from his dog whistling and invective that he's injected over the last decade, does the Tory party pivot so hard into the right wing and its talking points if Farage isn't there hoovering up chunks of right wing votes?

I think it's a really interesting "What if..." that plane crash.
 

DustyBin

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I've occasionally wondered what might have been if he had not survived that crash. It was 2010 so well before EU membership was anything other than the preserve of cranks and before the real rise of UKIP (only 3.1% of the vote in the subsequent election) in the years leading up to 2016 (their 2014 performance at the EU elections where they'd win 26.6% of the vote was still four years away). Do events play out in anything like the same way without the talismanic Farage at the head of UKIP for that critical period? That's quite apart from his dog whistling and invective that he's injected over the last decade, does the Tory party pivot so hard into the right wing and its talking points if Farage isn't there hoovering up chunks of right wing votes?

I think it's a really interesting "What if..." that plane crash.

Which all raises the question of whether his miracle escape was some form of divine intervention! <D :lol:
 

nw1

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I've occasionally wondered what might have been if he had not survived that crash. It was 2010 so well before EU membership was anything other than the preserve of cranks and before the real rise of UKIP (only 3.1% of the vote in the subsequent election) in the years leading up to 2016 (their 2014 performance at the EU elections where they'd win 26.6% of the vote was still four years away). Do events play out in anything like the same way without the talismanic Farage at the head of UKIP for that critical period? That's quite apart from his dog whistling and invective that he's injected over the last decade, does the Tory party pivot so hard into the right wing and its talking points if Farage isn't there hoovering up chunks of right wing votes?

I think it's a really interesting "What if..." that plane crash.

I don't want to bring in the plane crash but a "what if" regarding Farage in general (i.e. what if he had never entered the political scene) is an interesting one.
 

brad465

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Today saw the most severe sentences handed out so far from the unrest, one of them being six years, which is longer than the JSO protestors sentenced for five years. Someone also received the first charge for the riot specific offence:


As courts across England continue to deal with the onslaught of cases related to recent disorder in the UK, here's a rundown of various charges and sentences that've come through today:

  • A short while ago, two men were jailed for their roles in what a judge called "12 hours of racist, hate-fuelled mob violence" in Hull
  • John Honey, 25, was given four years and eight months, and 48-year-old David Wilkinson six years - the longest sentences to be handed out since the violence that erupted following a stabbing attack in Southport last month
  • The first adult in England was charged earlier with the more serious offence of riot, while further violent disorder sentences have been handed out in Bristol, Sheffield, Sunderland, Blackpool, Liverpool and Plymouth
 

DarloRich

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494 people charged so far.

You look at some of the people convicted and you wonder: what radicalised you? Was it a decade and more of Daily Mail headlines and Faragist facebook posts and GB news echo chambers?

We have got to have a look at this and do something about it. We can't hope to have any sort of debate on the underlying issues until this potential radicalisation is dealt with.

We also need to improve education to give people a chance at being able to grade and sort information, asses motives and position of the person giving you that information and understand the mechanisms used to transmit that information to you. Ignorance used to be one of the five evils - now it is seen as a badge of honour!

“Ignorance is an evil weed which dictators may cultivate among their dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens.”
 

GusB

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One individual is looking at a potential life sentence for his actions:

Also at Sheffield crown court, Thomas Birley, 27, who threw a wood panel on to a fire outside the same hotel, admitted a charge of arson with intent to endanger life.

The court heard that Birley, of Swinton, Rotherham, was involved in several incidents outside the hotel, including stoking a fire in a bin that was pushed against an exit, throwing items at the police and squaring up to officers while brandishing a police baton.

Richardson told Birley that his offending was unquestionably the most serious of all that he had dealt with in the last fortnight in relation to the rioting that followed the killing of three girls in Southport last month. He said: “The sentence must be of some substance. This is a crime which carries a life sentence. I rule nothing in and rule nothing out.”


The judge said Birley would be sentenced on 6 September and remanded him into custody and ordered that a psychiatric report be prepared.
 

JGurney

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Ignorance used to be one of the five evils - now it is seen as a badge of honour!
Indeed. I suspect that some of the people shouting far-right racist rhetoric and joining disturbances don't even really believe it themselves. For some I suspect it is simply an excuse for excitement, and for some a means of showing defiance towards consensus opinions associated with authority or with being "posh". Rather like those schoolchildren who claim to believe in ghosts or the Bemuda Triangle because they think that will irritate teachers and show rejection of what they are taught.
 

YorkRailFan

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Home Secretary Yvette Cooper has ordered a review into the recent riots.
NEW: Home Secretary Yvette Cooper has ordered a review into the previous riots

Surprised it took so long.
 

yorkie

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A few more of these far-right specimens to be jailed include:
A rioter seen with a “maniacal grin” as he built a bonfire and threw missiles at police during disorder in Southport has been jailed.

Christopher Beard was seen at the front of a crowd as violence flared outside a mosque just a day after three girls were killed in a stabbing in the Merseyside town.
A man who stormed a hotel used to house asylum seekers and was part of a crowd chanting “burn it down” has been jailed for three years.

Craden McKenzie was one of about 400 people who gathered outside the Holiday Inn Express in Manvers, Rotherham, on 4 August.
A man who stoked a fire outside a hotel housing more than 200 asylum seekers has been jailed for nine years - the longest sentence passed to date after widespread violence erupted across the UK last month.

Thomas Birley, 27, was seen piling chipboard onto a burning bin outside the Holiday Inn Express in Manvers, South Yorkshire, during rioting on 4 August.
Meanwhile, in Glasgow today, the far-right were massively outnumbered by anti-racists:
A BBC reporter at the scene estimated that two to three thousand people joined the anti-racism rally in George Square, with about 350 at the rival demonstration.

A group of masked men, believed to be from the Green Brigade "ultra" group of Celtic fans, were contained by police in a corner of the square.
 

1D54

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That's the BBC for you. Large number of the usual Pro Palestinian loonies in attendance but i didn't see any masked members of the groin brigade, doesn't of course mean to say they weren't there but the wind was probably blowing in a favourable direction or I'm sure I'd have been aware of them.
 

GusB

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That's the BBC for you. Large number of the usual Pro Palestinian loonies in attendance but i didn't see any masked members of the groin brigade, doesn't of course mean to say they weren't there but the wind was probably blowing in a favourable direction or I'm sure I'd have been aware of them.
I'm not quite sure why you're classing pro-Palestinians as "loonies".

I've also no idea what you mean by "groin brigade"!
 

brad465

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A sign of how deeply tribal this situation is, there are folk who agree with the believed causes of the rioting who are essentially trying to sympathise/play down crimes like arson, which have been crimes in one form or another for much of human civilisation. Also where the normal right wing approach to law and order is to be tough on crime and lock people up and throw away the key, but left wing attitude is more orientated towards looking at causes of crime and rehabilitation for offenders, the rioting offences have also turned some right wingers into left wingers and vice versa.
 

AlterEgo

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That's the BBC for you. Large number of the usual Pro Palestinian loonies in attendance but i didn't see any masked members of the groin brigade, doesn't of course mean to say they weren't there but the wind was probably blowing in a favourable direction or I'm sure I'd have been aware of them.
There is a big picture of the Green Brigade being contained by the police in the article: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20r7wzke97o
 

Richard Scott

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494 people charged so far.

You look at some of the people convicted and you wonder: what radicalised you? Was it a decade and more of Daily Mail headlines and Faragist facebook posts and GB news echo chambers?

We have got to have a look at this and do something about it. We can't hope to have any sort of debate on the underlying issues until this potential radicalisation is dealt with.

We also need to improve education to give people a chance at being able to grade and sort information, asses motives and position of the person giving you that information and understand the mechanisms used to transmit that information to you. Ignorance used to be one of the five evils - now it is seen as a badge of honour!

“Ignorance is an evil weed which dictators may cultivate among their dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens.”
Usually it's people looking to belong to something, often those who don't fit in or need to feel wanted. Sometimes it's actually quite sad why people are drawn into these sorts of things and is unlikely to be Daily Mail or Farage as much as we would like to blame them.
 

najaB

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Sometimes it's actually quite sad why people are drawn into these sorts of things and is unlikely to be Daily Mail or Farage as much as we would like to blame them.
Loneliness and a feel to fit in set the dominoes up, and it only takes a Robinson/Farage/Daily Mail to knock the first one over.
 

Harpo

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The language of lies, division, vilification and external blame has been prevalent in government in recent times, deflecting rather than tackling multiple major domestic problems. The press mouthpieces have provided less refined amplification with added spin and other bodies have poured in misinformation, aided by social media.

So many repeated lessons from history.
 

Richard Scott

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Loneliness and a feel to fit in set the dominoes up, and it only takes a Robinson/Farage/Daily Mail to knock the first one over.
It probably will be someone like that but not necessarily them per se.
 

AlterEgo

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The idea of “fitting in” definitely applies to quite a few rioters. They want to feel part of something, they’re bored, have no outlet for violence or frustration. This is part of the reason why the riots stopped when the football started again. Triple threat of hot weather, opportunity and nothing to do makes a recipe for summer riots. See you all in five years maybe for the next riots - it’ll be during the close season again!
 

brad465

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Jim Hacker once joked about the idea of having "breeding licences" in a statement to put Sir Humphrey Appleby in his place. Stories like this however only make me consider further the concept the policy might actually be a good idea:


A mother who went on holiday to Ibiza rather than attending her son's sentencing for his role in riots has been ordered to pay compensation to the victims.
Her 12-year-old boy kicked a bus outside a hotel housing asylum seekers in Manchester on 31 July, before joining a mob that targeted a vape shop and threw missiles at a police van on 3 August.
The 30-year-old mother was ordered to pay £1,200 compensation - approximately the same price as her holiday - and attend a six-month parenting course.
The boy, who cannot be named because of his age, was handed a 12-month referral order and told had he been an adult he could have been sent to prison for between four and five years.

'Chaotic home life'​


District Judge Joanne Hirst told the youngster at Manchester Magistrates' Court he had displayed "the worst type of feral behaviour".
His mother, who told the judge her holiday to the Spanish party island had cost £1,000, was ordered to pay £300 each to the bus driver, a housing officer at the asylum hotel, an asylum seeker who was on the bus and a member of staff at a looted Sainsbury's store for the distress caused.
Parents can be ordered to pay financial penalties when their children have committed a crime under terms of the Criminal Justice Act.
The judge told her: "You know it's approximately the same cost as your holiday to Ibiza."
The mother flew abroad for a five-day break the day before her son was due to appear in court on 2 September for sentencing.
The boy was accompanied to the hearing by his uncle but Judge Hirst said the mother's actions left her "frankly astonished" and said she would summon the woman to court to explain herself.
The judge asked the mother: "Can you explain your point of view?"
The mother said she spoke with her solicitor and the youth justice team and "it was not put to me how much I needed to be there".
She said: "Each one said, 'Is there an appropriate adult?'"
The mother said her brother was accompanying him "which is why I went on holiday".
 

BigDog

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It's a shame that these protests have been overshadowed by the rioters and those peacefully protesting have all been painted with the same brush as the rioters.

I live very local to the Manvers Holiday Inn and there has been a genuine concern about the migrants living there. There have been cases of these migrants assaulting women and generally being a nuisance. But now of course nobody can speak up because they will be shot down as far-right and racist bigots.
 

jon0844

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I live very local to the Manvers Holiday Inn and there has been a genuine concern about the migrants living there. There have been cases of these migrants assaulting women and generally being a nuisance. But now of course nobody can speak up because they will be shot down as far-right and racist bigots.

Who is stopping you raising concerns? As long as you're not attempting to set fire to their accommodation or chanting racist things in the street, I am pretty sure you have as much freedom of speech as you ever have.

Have you and others affected been reporting all incidents to the police and keeping notes of offences so the police can build up a profile? I assume you know about specific incidents to know it's definitely migrants and not just hearsay.
 

alex397

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It's a shame that these protests have been overshadowed by the rioters and those peacefully protesting have all been painted with the same brush as the rioters.

I live very local to the Manvers Holiday Inn and there has been a genuine concern about the migrants living there. There have been cases of these migrants assaulting women and generally being a nuisance. But now of course nobody can speak up because they will be shot down as far-right and racist bigots.

It’s not a shame at all.

Do these people ever protest about born and bred locals who assault women and cause a nuisance? Or is that less of an issue because they’re British?

Of course they can speak up about people who assault or cause a nuisance - that’s what the police and authorities are there for- but are all migrants doing this? Is it fair to treat them all the same?

It is a bit like a certain estate having a few problem families, and then the local community treating that estate as if everyone there is a lowlife scumbag, which is unhelpful snobbery. To me, that’s similar to protesting about migrants as if they’re all criminals and everyone ‘native’ is an angel.
 

bahnause

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I live very local to the Manvers Holiday Inn and there has been a genuine concern about the migrants living there. There have been cases of these migrants assaulting women and generally being a nuisance. But now of course nobody can speak up because they will be shot down as far-right and racist bigots.
Do these migrants also happen to eat the neighbors' dogs and cats?
 

Harpo

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The far right chooses to conflate issues related to migrants to support its views and make it appear that we had no crime before the arrival of migrants even though the pre-existing population has managed to fill the UK’s prisons to overflowing.

If there are problems in any community then the police need to be involved.
 

BigDog

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I'm not reporting things because it's not affecting me, I don't live on the estate. But I am mates with a few people that live there and yes, they have raised their concerns to the police, nothing has been done. I suppose they should just be quiet and put up with things.
 

nw1

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It's a shame that these protests have been overshadowed by the rioters and those peacefully protesting have all been painted with the same brush as the rioters.

I live very local to the Manvers Holiday Inn and there has been a genuine concern about the migrants living there. There have been cases of these migrants assaulting women and generally being a nuisance. But now of course nobody can speak up because they will be shot down as far-right and racist bigots.

These people have precisely zero "genuine concerns". They are prejudiced against them simply because they are migrants.

Plenty of bad native English people exist, including some particularly nasty examples.

Personally I'm sick to the back teeth of people whinging and whining about migrants: in my view they are just exposing their own prejudices.
 
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