Far-right protests

[gg1]

I suspect many of the incarnated will be appealing the length of sentences and by the time the appeals are heard things will have calmed down and many will have reduced time to serve. As disgusting as these scenes were some people involved themselves in behaviour that was totally alien to them and no, I'm not defending any of what went on but in the cold light of day handing out a couple of years to people with no previous does seem a little on the harsh side.

They may not have had any previous convictions but the chances of the people sentenced here not having committed any previous criminal acts is practically zero. The convictions are for crime such as violent disorder, assault, criminal damage, inciting racial hatred etc. It's naive to assume that the sort of people who committed these acts were decent law abiding people only 2 weeks ago rather than the more likely scenario of them being scumbags waiting for an excuse to kick off.

 

[uglymonkey]

Deleted

 

[Puffing Devil]

Those were widely criticised as being too severe (a quick google supports that), and I'm sure many were quietly reduced after the event.

If you're sure, I'm sure you can find some unbiased evidence to support your claim. I maintain they were in line with the guidelines.

 

[Cross City]

I suspect they'll be looked back upon as the dangerous, extremist, cranks that they are, but I guess we'll have to wait and see!

Don't think that any of their methods have been dangerous or what you could all 'extremist' at all. Putting a bit of paint on a bank or sitting in a road isn't extremism.

 

[ainsworth74]

I notice the right wing cranks, like Farage, have pivoted to all this being an attack on free speech and revoking magna carta or some such.

Yes it's an interesting choice of pivot isn't it? I suspect to a degree it's a reaction to the collision with reality that Twitter and their various online bubbles aren't reality. I rather suspect that some right-wing nutters and their cheerleaders got a bit carried away with themselves and thought that there would be more people on the streets, in a wider area (remember on Wednesday it was supposed to be 100 'demonstrations' throughout the country) only to discover it's actually something a minority pursuit. Many people, including myself, are concerned about the levels of overall immigration to the country (for me personally its on how do we provide services for a larger population when we're already struggling). But, unlike in the far right bubble, that concern doesn't translate into "we should burn down hotels with asylum seekers still in them" and instead has resulted in a the vast majority of people and reputable media organisations holding a strong negative opinion of the rioters and their actions.

I do actually think that they fell into the same trap that they often accuse the left wing of falling into. That Twitter and online spaces aren't the real world. So, with that in mind, what can they do to try and salvage some face? The racism has ended up being roundly condemned so that won't work. Another old faithful is that it's all a conspiracy to control what you can see, hear and think! Free speech is under attack! The police are going to extradite you to the UK for your comments! The KIER IS COMING FOR YOUR MEMES!

All nonsense of course. Particularly as the UK is not unique in the idea that if you incite violence you may well find yourself having some criminal liability for that. Including, er, that bastion of free speech the United States funnily enough:

Fact Sheet on Threats and Incitement to Violence Related to the Election

The 2020 presidential election has spurred much public discussion about election integrity. Some people have gone beyond questioning the security of our voting systems to threatening or encouraging harm to public officials and others they view as responsible for the problems they perceive. In the United States, the First Amendment guarantees the freedom to express one’s views, to peacefully assemble with others who share those views, and to petition the government for redress of grievances. But these rights are not boundless— attempts to intimidate and coerce through threats of violence, stalking, and armed paramilitary activity are not constitutionally protected.

• The First Amendment does not protect violent or unlawful conduct, even if the person engaging in it intends to express an idea. United States v. O’Brien, 391 U.S. 367, 376 (1968).

• The First Amendment does not protect speech that incites imminent violence or lawlessness. Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (1969).

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2020/12/Fact-Sheet-on-Threats-Related-to-the-Election.pdf

But yes, the UK is a dystopian hellscape where any view that doesn't accord with the views of the UK Government will see you slapped in irons

All the being said I do think it's fascinating that Elon (and his acolytes) have turned their eye on the UK quite so firmly. Especially quite so soon after Elon's disciple (Rishi) lost an election. One might wonder if he's feeling a bit ticked off that one of his right-wing mates has lost an election which his platform was unable to prevent. Indeed it's shaping up to be a bit of a rubbish year for the right wing at the moment. They didn't do as well in the European Parliament elections as they'd hoped, Le Pen fell to third place in the French elections, we spanked the Tories in our election, and the US Presidential suddenly feels much less of a lock for Trump than it did a month ago.

 

[jon0844]

Yes it's an interesting choice of pivot isn't it? I suspect to a degree it's a reaction to the collision with reality that Twitter and their various online bubbles aren't reality. I rather suspect that some right-wing nutters and their cheerleaders got a bit carried away with themselves and thought that there would be more people on the streets, in a wider area (remember on Wednesday it was supposed to be 100 'demonstrations' throughout the country) only to discover it's actually something a minority pursuit. Many people, including myself, are concerned about the levels of overall immigration to the country (for me personally its on how do we provide services for a larger population when we're already struggling). But, unlike in the far right bubble, that concern doesn't translate into "we should burn down hotels with asylum seekers still in them" and instead has resulted in a the vast majority of people and reputable media organisations holding a strong negative opinion of the rioters and their actions.

I do actually think that they fell into the same trap that they often accuse the left wing of falling into. That Twitter and online spaces aren't the real world. So, with that in mind, what can they do to try and salvage some face? The racism has ended up being roundly condemned so that won't work. Another old faithful is that it's all a conspiracy to control what you can see, hear and think! Free speech is under attack! The police are going to extradite you to the UK for your comments! The KIER IS COMING FOR YOUR MEMES!

All nonsense of course. Particularly as the UK is not unique in the idea that if you incite violence you may well find yourself having some criminal liability for that. Including, er, that bastion of free speech the United States funnily enough:

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2020/12/Fact-Sheet-on-Threats-Related-to-the-Election.pdf

But yes, the UK is a dystopian hellscape where any view that doesn't accord with the views of the UK Government will see you slapped in irons

All the being said I do think it's fascinating that Elon (and his acolytes) have turned their eye on the UK quite so firmly. Especially quite so soon after Elon's disciple (Rishi) lost an election. One might wonder if he's feeling a bit ticked off that one of his right-wing mates has lost an election which his platform was unable to prevent. Indeed it's shaping up to be a bit of a rubbish year for the right wing at the moment. They didn't do as well in the European Parliament elections as they'd hoped, Le Pen fell to third place in the French elections, we spanked the Tories in our election, and the US Presidential suddenly feels much less of a lock for Trump than it did a month ago.

It does seem that whatever Elon says has the opposite effect on the outcome.

Long may it continue.

 

[brad465]

Looks like critical thinking education will be more widely introduced into the school curriculum in response to the latest unrest:

Children to be taught how to spot extremist content and fake news online

Education secretary launches review of curriculum in primary and secondary schools in England aimed at teaching critical thinking

www.theguardian.com

Children in England will be taught how to spot extremist content and misinformation online under planned changes to the school curriculum, the education secretary has said.

Bridget Phillipson said she was launching a review of the curriculum in primary and secondary schools to embed critical thinking across multiple subjects and arm children against “putrid conspiracy theories”.

One example may include pupils analysing newspaper articles in English lessons in a way that would help differentiate fabricated stories from true reporting.

In computer lessons, they could be taught how to spot fake news websites by their design, and maths lessons may include analysing statistics in context.

Phillipson, the Labour MP for Houghton and Sunderland South, told the Sunday Telegraph: “It’s more important than ever that we give young people the knowledge and skills to be able to challenge what they see online.

“That’s why our curriculum review will develop plans to embed critical skills in lessons to arm our children against the disinformation, fake news and putrid conspiracy theories awash on social media. Our renewed curriculum will always put high and rising standards in core subjects – that’s non-negotiable.

“But alongside this we will create a broad, knowledge-rich curriculum that widens access to cultural subjects and gives pupils the knowledge and skills they need to thrive at work and throughout life.”

Misinformation spread on social media about the background and religion of the suspect in the stabbing of three young girls in Southport on 29 July has been blamed for the rioting led by the far right across the UK.

This is a good start IMO, but more needs to be done to get those who are already past school to up to standard. I'd introduce it as mandatory workplace training to be done once in full then a refresher every year or two, similar to data protection training in many organisations.

 

[J-2739]

Looks like critical thinking education will be more widely introduced into the school curriculum in response to the latest unrest:

Children to be taught how to spot extremist content and fake news online

Education secretary launches review of curriculum in primary and secondary schools in England aimed at teaching critical thinking

www.theguardian.com

This is a good start IMO, but more needs to be done to get those who are already past school to up to standard. I'd introduce it as mandatory workplace training to be done once in full then a refresher every year or two, similar to data protection training in many organisations.

And what about those not in any form of education, training, or employment? Can we assume these constituted a majority of those who took part in the riots?

I do wholeheartedly support these proposals, if it at least cuts down on the waste appealing to those who should otherwise know better - in politics and society.

 

[Cowley]

hat Elon (and his acolytes) have turned their eye on the UK quite so firmly. Especially quite so soon after Elon's disciple (Rishi) lost an election. One might wonder if he's feeling a bit ticked off that one of his right-wing mates has lost an election which his platform was unable to prevent. Indeed it's shaping up to be a bit of a rubbish year for the right wing at the moment. They didn't do as well in the European Parliament elections as they'd hoped, Le Pen fell to third place in the French elections, we spanked the Tories in our election, and the US Presidential suddenly feels much less of a lock for Trump than it did a month ago.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the images of the riots over here being used by the Trump campaign (and therefore amplified yet again by Musk) as a reason why strong, male (and preferably orange hued) leaders are the best people to have in charge of your country in the scary modern world.

 

[DustyBin]

Even the owner of X is regurgitating that line.

Arguably the biggest crank of the lot!

Don't think that any of their methods have been dangerous or what you could all 'extremist' at all. Putting a bit of paint on a bank or sitting in a road isn't extremism.

Some of them have gone (or attempted to go) beyond that though....

Yes it's an interesting choice of pivot isn't it? I suspect to a degree it's a reaction to the collision with reality that Twitter and their various online bubbles aren't reality. I rather suspect that some right-wing nutters and their cheerleaders got a bit carried away with themselves and thought that there would be more people on the streets, in a wider area (remember on Wednesday it was supposed to be 100 'demonstrations' throughout the country) only to discover it's actually something a minority pursuit. Many people, including myself, are concerned about the levels of overall immigration to the country (for me personally its on how do we provide services for a larger population when we're already struggling). But, unlike in the far right bubble, that concern doesn't translate into "we should burn down hotels with asylum seekers still in them" and instead has resulted in a the vast majority of people and reputable media organisations holding a strong negative opinion of the rioters and their actions.

I do actually think that they fell into the same trap that they often accuse the left wing of falling into. That Twitter and online spaces aren't the real world. So, with that in mind, what can they do to try and salvage some face? The racism has ended up being roundly condemned so that won't work. Another old faithful is that it's all a conspiracy to control what you can see, hear and think! Free speech is under attack! The police are going to extradite you to the UK for your comments! The KIER IS COMING FOR YOUR MEMES!

All nonsense of course. Particularly as the UK is not unique in the idea that if you incite violence you may well find yourself having some criminal liability for that. Including, er, that bastion of free speech the United States funnily enough:

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2020/12/Fact-Sheet-on-Threats-Related-to-the-Election.pdf

But yes, the UK is a dystopian hellscape where any view that doesn't accord with the views of the UK Government will see you slapped in irons

All the being said I do think it's fascinating that Elon (and his acolytes) have turned their eye on the UK quite so firmly. Especially quite so soon after Elon's disciple (Rishi) lost an election. One might wonder if he's feeling a bit ticked off that one of his right-wing mates has lost an election which his platform was unable to prevent. Indeed it's shaping up to be a bit of a rubbish year for the right wing at the moment. They didn't do as well in the European Parliament elections as they'd hoped, Le Pen fell to third place in the French elections, we spanked the Tories in our election, and the US Presidential suddenly feels much less of a lock for Trump than it did a month ago.

It cuts both ways though; there was uproar from the left when Priti Patel went a bit authoritarian!

To be honest I don't think it's helpful to paint this as a left vs right issue, it's more about keeping authoritarianism in check. (Not that clamping down on racism, hate speech, and rioting is authoritarian, obviously!).

 

[brad465]

And what about those not in any form of education, training, or employment? Can we assume these constituted a majority of those who took part in the riots?

I do wholeheartedly support these proposals, if it at least cuts down on the waste appealing to those who should otherwise know better - in politics and society.

Good point, for those who are convicted of crimes the training could be included into a rehabilitation programme, for other areas I confess I don't know at the moment.

 

[jon0844]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the images of the riots over here being used by the Trump campaign (and therefore amplified yet again by Musk) as a reason why strong, male (and preferably orange hued) leaders are the best people to have in charge of your country in the scary modern world.

The usual suspects (accounts that Elon promotes, or some even suspect are Elon himself) have already been posting content along the lines of 'this is what you get when you vote for a left-wing/socialist/communist Government'.

But I think things have massively shifted in the USA lately, with Joe Biden not putting himself up for re-election. Trump is also becoming more and more deranged (the latest claim about Kamala's audience being AI and not existing at all?) and then there's all the Project 2025 content being published that they cannot distance themselves from entirely.

All they have now is the hope they can have another insurrection and claim election fraud as, right now, I think the Republicans have hit a wall.

 

[DustyBin]

Looks like critical thinking education will be more widely introduced into the school curriculum in response to the latest unrest:

Children to be taught how to spot extremist content and fake news online

Education secretary launches review of curriculum in primary and secondary schools in England aimed at teaching critical thinking

www.theguardian.com

This is a good start IMO, but more needs to be done to get those who are already past school to up to standard. I'd introduce it as mandatory workplace training to be done once in full then a refresher every year or two, similar to data protection training in many organisations.

In principle this is a good thing. The question though is who decides what's "fake", "extreme", or "misinformation"?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

In principle this is a good thing. The question though is who decides what's "fake", "extreme", or "misinformation"?

You just extend the questions utilised by Darrel Huff in his excellent book 'How to lie with statistics' which basically are

Who says so? Eessentially do they have an axe to grind

And

How do they know that? What is their methodology and how did they get their data.

Add on examples from a reputable verification checking source and there you go.

 

[Cdd89]

On the topic of “two tier policing” — the problem is that it’s a very easy narrative to spread.

Policing (and to an extent, also judgments) is kind of capricious and random, so any “side” will be able to point its base to specific examples of harsh and lenient policing that supports their narrative.

I actually don’t know how it can be effectively countered.

 

[jon0844]

Stabbing in Leicester Square. Information unclear right now, but Tommy Robinson has already got things going.

Nigel Farage is presumably unfolding his flags before he speaks to the nation.

An 11-year-old girl and a 34-year-old woman have been rushed to the hospital after a double stabbing in London's busy Leicester Square. Police too busy searching for "wrong speak" posts? (source)

 

[JGurney]

In principle this is a good thing. The question though is who decides what's "fake", "extreme", or "misinformation"?

Whether or not factual claims are true (i.e. not fake or misinformation) is mainly straightforward, as is whether or not an image is genuine or a fake.
Matters of opinion such as deciding what is 'extreme' do get more complicated. The UK govt currently define the term as:

"Extremism is the promotion or advancement of an ideology based on violence, hatred or intolerance, that aims to:

1. negate or destroy the fundamental rights and freedoms of others; or
2. undermine, overturn or replace the UK’s system of liberal parliamentary democracy and democratic rights; or
3. intentionally create a permissive environment for others to achieve the results in (1) or (2)."

[https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tremism-2024/new-definition-of-extremism-2024]

which looks reasonably workable to me, although perhaps not watertight (e.g. there might be debates over which rights and freedoms were fundamental, and over whether an ideology being intolerant even if free of hatred and violence is still enough to make it 'extreme').

 

[1D54]

Wouldn't bother. He's shown who he really is

And who would that be?

 

[DustyBin]

You just extend the questions utilised by Darrel Huff in his excellent book 'How to lie with statistics' which basically are

Who says so? Eessentially do they have an axe to grind

And

How do they know that? What is their methodology and how did they get their data.

Add on examples from a reputable verification checking source and there you go.

In theory it's simple; in practice less so. I'm playing devils advocate to a certain extent and don't wish to derail the thread, but with the right resources it's easy to manipulate the information space.

 

[ainsworth74]

It cuts both ways though; there was uproar from the left when Priti Patel went a bit authoritarian!

To be honest I don't think it's helpful to paint this as a left vs right issue, it's more about keeping authoritarianism in check. (Not that clamping down on racism, hate speech, and rioting is authoritarian, obviously!).

Sure, that's probably an important point as you can get left wing authoritarians and right wing authoritarians! The old horseshoe theory that the left and right tend to bend towards each other at the extremes and it's definitely, in my view, got more than a kernel of truth to it.

That being said Priti Patel was actually one of the people who acquitted herself surprisingly well. She came against the rioters, no ifs or buts!

 

[Haywain]

Information unclear right now, but Tommy Robinson has already got things going.

He'll almost certainly ignore the intervention of Abdullah to stop the attack.

 

[ainsworth74]

He'll almost certainly ignore the intervention of Abdullah to stop the attack.

Just to add a bit of context as I was behind on this story so wasn't sure who Abdullah was they are the brave individual who jumped in to help:

Abdullah, 29, who works at TWG tea in Leicester Square, said he intervened to stop the attacker who had blood on his face and chest.

"I heard a scream and I just went outside and saw one guy had a knife," he explained.

"The moment I saw it I just jumped on that guy and grabbed his hand... and put him down on the floor and kicked the knife away from him."

He said a couple of other men also came over to help and held the man down for "four to five" minutes, adding he decided to take action because "I had no time, I just didn't think".

"It's horrible to be honest; I've never seen anything like that before," he said.

"To do this to a kid, it's horrible."

Leicester Square: Girl, 11 and mum, 34, stabbed in London

A shop security guard says he intervened to stop the attacker and helped give first aid to the child.

www.bbc.co.uk

But yes guaranteed that he and all the rest of them will ignore the intervention of someone named Abdullah, he'll completely ruin the angle they were trying to push.

 

[dosxuk]

The usual suspects (accounts that Elon promotes, or some even suspect are Elon himself) have already been posting content along the lines of 'this is what you get when you vote for a left-wing/socialist/communist Government'.

Sounds like more of the mafia style bargaining... "vote us into power or we'll riot - do you want your business burning down? #voteright"

 

[jon0844]

Sounds like more of the mafia style bargaining... "vote us into power or we'll riot - do you want your business burning down? #voteright"

Trump is the ultimate Godfather.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2024 ==

Just to add a bit of context as I was behind on this story so wasn't sure who Abdullah was they are the brave individual who jumped in to help:

Leicester Square: Girl, 11 and mum, 34, stabbed in London

A shop security guard says he intervened to stop the attacker and helped give first aid to the child.

www.bbc.co.uk

But yes guaranteed that he and all the rest of them will ignore the intervention of someone named Abdullah, he'll completely ruin the angle they were trying to push.

I cannot confirm if the video I've seen is legitimate, but if it is then the offender is very much white. If true, this story will be killed off very quick.

 

[Howardh]

Tommy Robinson

I have read that, due to him telling the Canadian authorities he was "born in Ireland" (was he?? Or good old Luton as the article suggests??) the authorities there are looking into the validity of his Irish Passport. Watch this space, as they say!

Meanwhile I wonder what attracts those and him backing Brexit to an Irish passport?

Tommy Robinson’s passport may be invalid, say Irish parliamentarians

Dáil members call for investigation after far-right leader gave false country of birth to Canada’s immigration officers

www.theguardian.com

rish MPs have called on their government to investigate how an Irish passport was obtained by Tommy Robinson, who has been accused of inciting riots from abroad.

The Luton-born far-right leader travels on an Irish passport in his real name – Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – and was believed to have qualified for it via his mother, an Irish immigrant to Britain.


However, questions have been raised about the validity of the passport after an official form issued to Robinson when he was detained by Canadian immigration authorities in June stated that his place of birth was “Ireland”.

The far right has moved online, where its voice is more dangerous than ever
Read more
Charles Flanagan, a former justice minister who chairs the Irish parliament’s foreign affairs and defence committee, said: “Any questions over the integrity of the Irish passport system must be taken most seriously.

“Eligibility for Irish citizenship and grounds for holding an Irish passport are clearly defined in law. Any alleged violation must not only be taken seriously but acted upon and subject to formal investigation by the appropriate authorities.”

Two other members of the Irish parliament also expressed concern

 

[contrex]

I cannot confirm if the video I've seen is legitimate, but if it is then the offender is very much white. If true, this story will be killed off very quick.

Killed off? By whom? And why? I don't understand (sorry if I'm being dense!)

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Killed off? By whom? And why? I don't understand (sorry if I'm being dense!)

If it is confirmed that the attacker is white then the likes of Yaxley-Lennon will move on to their next stirring of hate.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have read that, due to him telling the Canadian authorities he was "born in Ireland" (was he?? Or good old Luton as the article suggests??) the authorities there are looking into the validity of his Irish Passport.

He qualifies for the passport based on his mother being Irish. He wouldn't have needed to lie about that to the Irish passport authorities, but he probably did lie about his country of birth to Canada in the hope his dodgy history wouldn't be flagged.

 

[Purple Train]

That being said Priti Patel was actually one of the people who acquitted herself surprisingly well. She came against the rioters, no ifs or buts!

And I remember thinking that if we ever had a more right-wing Home Secretary, I'd eat my hat...

Looks like critical thinking education will be more widely introduced into the school curriculum in response to the latest unrest:

Children to be taught how to spot extremist content and fake news online

Education secretary launches review of curriculum in primary and secondary schools in England aimed at teaching critical thinking

www.theguardian.com

This is a good start IMO, but more needs to be done to get those who are already past school to up to standard. I'd introduce it as mandatory workplace training to be done once in full then a refresher every year or two, similar to data protection training in many organisations.

This is excellent news. Hopefully the start of a shift back towards logic in public life, rather than populism and emotion. I know, I'm hideously optimistic. Sorry.

 

[nw1]

I have read that, due to him telling the Canadian authorities he was "born in Ireland" (was he?? Or good old Luton as the article suggests??) the authorities there are looking into the validity of his Irish Passport. Watch this space, as they say!

One of his parents is Irish so I think he qualifies on the basis of that. But if he were true to his English Supremacy message he would not apply for the Irish passport out of principle.

Meanwhile I wonder what attracts those and him backing Brexit to an Irish passport?

Do as I say, not as I do, of course. See also: Brexiters with second homes in France.