Far-right protests

[nw1]

Germany's National Socialist Party weren't fascists at the start.

I'm not defending the RN at all. I dislike them intensely, in fact.

I was merely making the point that even though the RN are not full-on fascists, they are regarded by many as far-right; and in my view that makes Reform similar to them. They seem to hold similar policies and common to both is an apparent intense dislike of the "other".

So essentially, I was making my comment to support my view that Reform are far-right.

 

[DarloRich]

Their simply isn't enough prison spaces to put everyone who was present in jail. I can certainly see many being made examples off but a politicans rhetoric and the actual results are different things

There will be enough space. Just put another bunk in.....

All charged over riots in Sunderland have been remanded in custody pending a sentencing hearing so there was space this morning
!

 

[nw1]

There is a band of rain overnight tonight, but the timing of it probably won't occur with rioting times. Thursday looks wetter across most of England and during the day and evening, so while I'd hope hostilities end sooner, that will make Wednesday the likely end date.

I'm out of the country but didn't the hot weather "break" last Thursday and it's been pretty normal for the time of year since?

 

[renegademaster]

All charged over riots in Sunderland have been remanded in custody pending a sentencing hearing so there was space this morning

It wasn't that many of them charged iirc. I presume it will be easier to refuse bail to early arrestees. Going to be a bit tougher if you are carting away hundreds

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

There will be enough space. Just put another bunk in.....

If it was that easy , the Tories "tough on crime" larp would have gone smoother. You could rush changes to prison welfare requirements , and suspended the ECHR a la Operation Demetrius but that will be big political third rail I don't think Kier would be fond of touching. Not to mention those prisons would become defacto radicalization camps if you just stuff them all in one place, like internment was for the IRA

 

[Robin Edwards]

For those believing that Reform and others aren't far right as you can get in UK - i've seen Reform voters happily rubbing shoulders with EDL leader Paul Golding. Look him up and view his thread on X if you have the stomach for so much spreading of dis/misinformation and hatred. UKIP, NF, BNP, EDL and some of the more recent Tories are very close bed-fellows and use division and hate to further their ambitions.

I'm wondering why some are so concerned about the welfare of the recent terrorists active over the weekend and how they might force-fit into our prison system? Well don't worry, I'm sure they will be afforded all of the same privileges and over-crowding provided to other inmates despite the far-right caring little about the welfare of the people they attack and don't like. If it were me, I'd be willing to fill the Bibby Stockholm and make use of that should contracts need to be extended although the guests wouldn't have access to any of their looted goods you understand.

 

[renegademaster]

I'm wondering why some are so concerned about the welfare of the recent terrorists active over the weekend and how they might force-fit into our prison system

I'm dont especially care about their welfare. I'm just trying to explain the legal practicalities and why stuffing a bunch of racists in the same spot in poor conditions and expecting them to come out less racist is silly.


The Bibby Stockholm is more akin to a low quality hotel than a prison, and isn't going to be used simply because it's not designed to keep its residents in but originally to house oil workers

 

[Haywain]

On BBC news just now, 378 arrests. So far.

 

[1D54]

I saw a documentary recently they were touring a recently closed prison - perhaps they could open it up again? ( think it was that documentary on capital punishment that that Judge Judy type ex lawyer did)?

Robert Rinder was looking around recently closed Shrewsbury prison last week and on the episode last night he did the same at Shepton Mallet.

 

[GardenRail]

The ECHR would have something to say about that

Ha, the Irony.

 

[DarloRich]

If it was that easy , the Tories "tough on crime" larp would have gone smoother.

i wasn't being entirely serious - although in time of emergency space will be found even if that means turning a blind eye to overcrowding for a period.

 

[renegademaster]

even if that means turning a blind eye to overcrowding for a period.

Which would mean inmates potentially winning a court case for early release. Their is ways round it but it requires calling parliament back and awkward actions

 

[Gloster]

Even here we seem to be getting people having a go at the European Convention on Human Rights. This is fundamental to our civilised existence, but it is just the sort of thing that the more organised of those in the background pushing the disorders would like to see destroyed.

 

[signed]

not full-on fascists

They're trying to erase the past to appeal now, they've silently scrubbed ideas...

The past Jean-Marie Le Pen FN was a lot more extremist than today's RN, and in many way facist party in their ideas

 

[SuspectUsual]

Which would mean inmates potentially winning a court case for early release. Their is ways round it but it requires calling parliament back and awkward actions

Given that a number of prisons are already meeting the government definition of overcrowded, I'm struggling to see why sustaining it requires Parliament to be recalled - have you got a source for this?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

On BBC news just now, 378 arrests. So far.

Wow - that is a lot!

 

[renegademaster]

Given that a number of prisons are already meeting the government definition of overcrowded, I'm struggling to see why sustaining it requires Parliament to be recalled - have you got a source for this?

Prisoners are being released because if they are not, eventually legal challenges will come in on human rights grounds for the condition of the prisoners, some of which will probably win. To get rid of them human rights laws you'd need to repeal them via an act of parliament.

 

[Thirteen]

I do wonder many of these people realise that with CCTV and actual cameras from news organisations, they will be caught, arrested and have the book thrown at them.

 

[1D54]

I do wonder many of these people realise that with CCTV and actual cameras from news organisations, they will be caught, arrested and have the book thrown at them.

Unless of course you are talking about the Spellow Library in Walton where no books will be thrown at anyone as the lunatics burnt it down.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

For those believing that Reform and others aren't far right as you can get in UK - i've seen Reform voters happily rubbing shoulders with EDL leader Paul Golding.

The fact that some Reform voters are far right doesn't show that Reform are far-right. No party can control who votes for it, and just about any party is going to have some people with weird ideas voting for it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

The ECHR would have something to say about that

Well if that's the case, I'd argue that shows how unfit for purpose the EHCR is, but that's a whole other discussion. The rioters have shown complete disregard for the 'human rights' of the people they've intimidated/attacked/whose property they've destroyed etc. I see no moral reason why they should be able to demand rights that they have so wantonly denied to others.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The fact that some Reform voters are far right doesn't show that Reform are far-right. No party can control who votes for it, and just about any party is going to have some people with weird ideas voting for it.

Yes, there could be some tactical voting I suppose.

But in general terms, people vote for the party that they believe best represents their views. And parties campaign to persuade voters to vote for them.

To dismiss the far right voters choosing Reform as “some people with weird ideas” is disingenuous in the extreme

 

[renegademaster]

The fact that some Reform voters are far right doesn't show that Reform are far-right. No party can control who votes for it, and just about any party is going to have some people with weird ideas voting for it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==



Well if that's the case, I'd argue that shows how unfit for purpose the EHCR is, but that's a whole other discussion. The rioters have shown complete disregard for the 'human rights' of the people they've intimidated/attacked/whose property they've destroyed etc. I see no moral reason why they should be able to demand rights that they have so wantonly denied to others.

Even if you believe accused rioters should have no human rights, overcrowded prisons are still a net negative.

 

[jon0844]

What do people make of the statement by Prime Minister Farage (oh, sorry, he is just cosplaying as one with his desk and union flags while addressing the Nation) that seems to condemn the violence but then goes on to rant about BLM and policing methods.

Sounds like he wants to signal to his followers to keep fighting, while distancing himself as much as he can.

Meanwhile Stateside they right is only showing footage of the Muslims that came out to protect their communities and imply they are behind the troubles. I'm sure Trump will talk about this in an upcoming rally and Elon has already communicated lies to 150m people who are forced to see his posts even if they don't follow him on X.

The narrative will be that this is what happens when you bring in a socialist Government.

I have been totally appalled by the levels of violence seen in the last couple of days. The levels of intimidation and threat to life have no place in a functioning democracy. That so many police officers have been injured trying to keep the peace is shocking, and we should not discount the use of the army if the situation were to deteriorate further.

In the short term, we will quell the riots, but deeper long-term problems remain.

Ever since the soft policing of the Black Lives Matter protests, the impression of two-tier policing has become widespread. The Prime Minister's faltering attempts to address the current crisis have only added to that sense of injustice.

The majority of our population can see the fracturing of our communities as a result of mass, uncontrolled immigration, whether legal or illegal. Yet to attempt to debate this in the public arena leads to immediate howls of condemnation. A population explosion without integration was always going to end badly. I have said this for many years.

We must have a more honest debate about these vital issues and give people the confidence that there are political solutions that are relevant to them. A recall of Parliament would be an appropriate start to this.

 

[jmh59]

The ECHR would have something to say about that

https://ks.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr-ks/guide_prisoners_rights_eng -

30. The strong presumption of a violation of Article 3 will normally be capable of being rebutted only
if the following factors are cumulatively met:

• the reductions in the required minimum personal space of 3 sq. m are short, occasional and minor;
• such reductions are accompanied by sufficient freedom of movement outside the cell and adequate out-of-cell activities; and
• the applicant is confined in what is, when viewed generally, an appropriate detention facility, and there are no other aggravating aspects of the conditions of his or her detention

page 12 para 30 seems to suggest 3 sq m minimum personal space per prisoner, less if there is sufficient out of cell activities etc... so chuck them out occasionally. (I did wonder if there is mileage in the fact they say square metres, not cubic metres... stack them and rack them. Oh, you expected a floor in your 3 square metres of space?)

 

[najaB]

Well if that's the case, I'd argue that shows how unfit for purpose the EHCR is, but that's a whole other discussion. The rioters have shown complete disregard for the 'human rights' of the people they've intimidated/attacked/whose property they've destroyed etc. I see no moral reason why they should be able to demand rights that they have so wantonly denied to others.

Going to disagree with that. The fact that they engaged in violence towards others doesn't give the state the right to treat them as sub-human. By all means, bang them in gaol to keep everyone else safe from them and stop them from repeating their actions, but they are people and deserve to be treated as such.

The idea that some people don't deserve to be treated with the same respect as others is the kind of thinking that marks totalitarian states, and wouldn't be far out of place in certain parts of Europe in the 1930s and 40s.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The ECHR and the general concepts of human rights and treating everyone fairly does not disappear because the people involved are those who you are ideologically opposed to, regardless of how abhorrent you find their position. As much as I believe those involved over the last week are simply racist thugs (and that anyone faced with the violence would be more than justified in retaliating or at the very least protecting themselves and their communities), they still deserve fair treatment, fair trials and humane treatment in prison. Apart from the fact this is important, to decide differently would be pure hypocrisy and would prove the batty allegations of two tier policing to be correct. Let's not stoop to that level.

 

[JD2168]

This particular Holiday Inn Express has been shut to the public for nearly 2 years, as are a lot of hotels in the deprived towns of Yorkshire, particularly West and South Yorkshire, for the very same reason. It doesn't seem to be an issue in the tourism spots, and well to do towns though. York, Whitby, Beverley, Wetherby, Tadcaster, Hebden, Skipton.... you wouldn't know there was any mounting tension. Wakefield however, there's at least 4 hotels closed to the public. A friend of mine had his contract terminated as an employee because of closing to the public. Anyway...you've looked at the wrong hotel. Whilst the media keeps saying Rotherham, it's actually in Manvers. Quite a way out of Rotherham. Nowhere near the actual town of Rotherham. In the area of Thurnsco, Goldthhorpe, Bolton on Dearn etc.
View attachment 163014

If anyone is wondering on the location it is about halfway along the 22x bus route between Rotherham & Barnsley.

 

[Haywain]

If anyone is wondering on the location it is about halfway along the 22x bus route between Rotherham & Barnsley.

A.k.a. in Wath on Dearne

 

[Bluejays]

What do people make of the statement by Prime Minister Farage (oh, sorry, he is just cosplaying as one with his desk and union flags while addressing the Nation) that seems to condemn the violence but then goes on to rant about BLM and policing methods.

Sounds like he wants to signal to his followers to keep fighting, while distancing himself as much as he can.

Meanwhile Stateside they right is only showing footage of the Muslims that came out to protect their communities and imply they are behind the troubles. I'm sure Trump will talk about this in an upcoming rally and Elon has already communicated lies to 150m people who are forced to see his posts even if they don't follow him on X.

The narrative will be that this is what happens when you bring in a socialist Government.

Daft statement by Farage, not sure anyone would have expected anything else from him though. It's his level. Not sure where the 'keep fighting' message comes from though, certainly not what came to mind when I read it.

After looking at the statements and comments made by several politicians today I'm very happy that parliament hasn't been recalled. As home secretary and shadow hone sec both said, we have the laws already to deal with these people. Personally,I don't think opening up parliaments for every mp to have their say would be of any use.


As for the US TV channels you mention, that is very poor indeed. But it fits their narrative I suppose. Seems like many just want to push their own narrative now and to hell with the news.

Mind you, saying that. Quick scan of 3 online papers. Shows the indie and dailymail both leading heavily with the far right, but also mentioning disturbances and aggression from other groups in the odd article. The guardian by contrast, I've been reading it all day and not a peep from them on any aggression that isn't far right. I may have missed it, but I'd guess it's just the guardian being the guardian

 

[Lewisham2221]

The ECHR and the general concepts of human rights and treating everyone fairly does not disappear because the people involved are those who you are ideologically opposed to, regardless of how abhorrent you find their position. As much as I believe those involved over the last week are simply racist thugs (and that anyone faced with the violence would be more than justified in retaliating or at the very least protecting themselves and their communities), they still deserve fair treatment, fair trials and humane treatment in prison. Apart from the fact this is important, to decide differently would be pure hypocrisy and would prove the batty allegations of two tier policing to be correct. Let's not stoop to that level.

Funny, because during the Brexit campaigning, didn't many of them made it clear how much they detested the ECHR?

 

[Haywain]

Funny, because during the Brexit campaigning, didn't many of them made it clear how much they detested the ECHR?

Probably because they are too thick to understand that it’s nothing to do with the EU.