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Far-right protests

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renegademaster

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Toxteth springs to mind!
mainstream politicans did try to investigate the cause though(same in 2011), rather than a silly hang em, flog em, and forget em attitude some people on here have seemed to copy from right wingers during 2011
 
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Haywain

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Maybe because Reform are not far-right?
They are well to the right of the Conservatives on the political spectrum, but they are not alone in being at that extreme.
On another forum someone asked "what is the deep rooted cause behind these riots" and one answer was "dry summer weather, strong cheap alcohol and readily obtainable cocaine".
You are not wrong. But those orchestrating the 'anger' are just capitalising on these things.
 

Howardh

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mainstream politicans did try to investigate the cause though(same in 2011), rather than a silly hang em, flog em, and forget em attitude some people on here have seemed to copy from right wingers during 2011
England football hooligans used to use away games as an excuse to riot in the 80's (maybe later?) including pretty little Luxembourg who have been no harm to anyone. Can't blame those riots on "immigration", "poor housing" etc. But I bet a pound to a penny alcohol and drugs would be behind those riots?

Anyway I think it's time Starmer re-opened the Rwanda policy, and sends all the convicted rioters there on the grounds that our prisons are already full and those rioting wouldn't want any early releases as they could go on to harm "our children" now, would they? Also as a permanently temporary measure, is the Bibby Stockholm available?
 

SuspectUsual

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Maybe because Reform are not far-right? They are a party that on the whole believes in small Government and free markets, and also in national identity and low immigration.



Reform are a xenophobic little Englander party (anti-Europe, pro-Brexit, anti-immigration) with a bunch of other stuff (your small Government and free markets) tacked on to give them the veneer of respectability that comes with not being a single issue party
 

renegademaster

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Can't blame those riots on "immigration", "poor housing" etc. But I bet a pound to a penny alcohol and drugs would be behind those riots?
I would suspect a productive use of time would be investigating why people are so easily getting dragged into the false narratives or why children seem to think its acceptable to behave they way they have done. Chucking 100s and possibly 1000s of people into already overcrowded jails and expecting them to come out much different is very wishful thinking.

While many people where made examples of during 2011, reforms did come as a result of it , and politicans just didnt lock the problem away and then hope everything gets better.
 

Bantamzen

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England football hooligans used to use away games as an excuse to riot in the 80's (maybe later?) including pretty little Luxembourg who have been no harm to anyone. Can't blame those riots on "immigration", "poor housing" etc. But I bet a pound to a penny alcohol and drugs would be behind those riots?
Football hooliganism in the 80s and 90s was driven because a lot of them simply liked to fight, it was that simple. One week West Ham & Chelsea would be at each other, the next they'd be stood side to side fighting in whatever country England happened to be playing in (at least until we got banned for 5 years). Alcohol and coke were just to give them a bit more bravado, but make no mistake a lot of the crews would go into a scrap at the drop of a hat. And plenty we ex-servicemen, as well as many professionals. You'd be surprised how many completely broke stenotypes often given to them.

But now there is a new wave of much younger people coming through wanting very much to recreate those days again, but often coming from areas already plagued with social disorder, crime and poverty. And they are simply not going to be afraid of what Starmer might be threatening, in fact some will see it as a challenge. These are the ones that the older hooligan crews are likely contacting to stir the pot and cause trouble. Which is why simply locking up those that the Police catch isn't going to have any long term effect, other kids will replace them whilst those in prison just make more contacts and work on their upper body strength. The government needs to tackle the underlying reasons why some kids are growing increasing feral and falling into hands of people more than willing to use to promote violence and chaos.
 

renegademaster

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Which is why simply locking up those that the Police catch isn't going to have any long term effect, other kids will replace them whilst those in prison just make more contacts and work on their upper body strength. The government needs to tackle the underlying reasons why some kids are growing increasing feral and falling into hands of people more than willing to use to promote violence and chaos.
Thank you for saying what I was trying to say much more eloquently.

British prisons are generally pretty ****e at rehabilitating and the tough headline sentences during 2011 didnt scare off people this week. A prison only strategy isn't going to achieve much other than a lot of wasted funds.
 

brad465

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When the weather gets cooler and it starts to rain ,the riots will stop.
There is a band of rain overnight tonight, but the timing of it probably won't occur with rioting times. Thursday looks wetter across most of England and during the day and evening, so while I'd hope hostilities end sooner, that will make Wednesday the likely end date.
Thank you for saying what I was trying to say much more eloquently.

British prisons are generally pretty ****e at rehabilitating and the tough headline sentences during 2011 didnt scare off people this week. A prison only strategy isn't going to achieve much other than a lot of wasted funds.
The appointment of James Timpson as prisons minister, someone who is keen on prison reform in favour of rehabilitation, suggests there is a long term plan to address this issue. However this will not have an impact on the current events given it's too soon.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Not surprising I suppose but Sir Keir has chaired a COBRA meeting this morning over the riots.

Downing Street held an emergency Cobra meeting this morning after hundreds of far right thugs were arrested in riots which saw attacks on police and buildings set alight on the sixth day of escalating disorder.

Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer vowed rioters would 'regret' engaging in 'far-right thuggery' and promised those involved in unrest would 'face the full force of the law' as he addressed the nation on Sunday.

Monday's meeting involved relevant ministers and police representatives who discussed the response in the coming days to ensure Britain is brought back from the edge of nationwide chaos.
 

DynamicSpirit

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There is a long and sporadic history of summer riots in the UK. Examples I can think of are:

  • 2011 Tottenham, Croydon and others mainly in London
  • 2001 Bradford and Oldham
  • 1981 Handsworth, Toxteth and Moss Side
Notting Hill in 1958 possibly counts too though that is before my time, and there are probably others going further back into history.

A common feature is the concurrence of:
  • hot dry weather
  • a loss of "institutional memory" of the previous example
  • a trigger event
The initial riots have often been followed by "copycat" riots in other parts of the country. Social media makes it easier to mobilise people for this than in the past.

What the police could do with now is some heavy rain, which is guaranteed to end the rioting.

Although not quite the same thing, you could probably add to that list the Black Lives Matter protests of summer 2020. No actual rioting and generally much more peaceful, but lots of breaking lockdown laws and some deliberate mob-induced destruction of public property. And if I recall correctly, it was with the same background of hot dry summer weather.
 

najaB

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How are they going to do this, when the prisons are full to bursting by all accounts?
Those who don't have a history of violent crime will likely be given community sentences. They may well accelerate the early release of non-violent offenders currently in prison to make room for those found to have engaged in the worst violence in these riots.
 

Haywain

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3 people up in court this morning charged with violent disorder in Sunderland, all pleaded guilty and all remanded for sentencing at Newcastle Crown Court on September 2nd.
 

DarloRich

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Those who don't have a history of violent crime will likely be given community sentences.
I think they will be going to the big house. The government has made noises about maximum force of the law and all that. Whilst the judiciary are independent they are not deaf!
 

renegademaster

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I think they will be going to the big house. The government has made noises about maximum force of the law and all that. Whilst the judiciary are independent they are not deaf!
Their simply isn't enough prison spaces to put everyone who was present in jail. I can certainly see many being made examples off but a politicans rhetoric and the actual results are different things
 

uglymonkey

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I saw a documentary recently they were touring a recently closed prison - perhaps they could open it up again? ( think it was that documentary on capital punishment that that Judge Judy type ex lawyer did)?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Their simply isn't enough prison spaces to put everyone who was present in jail. I can certainly see many being made examples off but a politicans rhetoric and the actual results are different things

I'm not sure I care if there aren't enough prison spaces to be honest. If the yobs who were attacking the police, terrifying passers by, and smashing windows to intimidate asylum seekers end up having to spend a year sleeping on cell floors because there aren't enough beds in the prisons, then ... tough! I'm pretty sure they all, if they reflected properly, would've known better than to do what they have done.
 

birchesgreen

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Arn't there some secure facilities the British state has paid for which arn't being used?

In Rwanda.
 

renegademaster

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I'm not sure I care if there aren't enough prison spaces to be honest. If the yobs who were attacking the police, terrifying passers by, and smashing windows to intimidate asylum seekers end up having to spend a year sleeping on cell floors because there aren't enough beds in the prisons, then ... tough! I'm pretty sure they all, if they reflected properly, would've known better than to do what they have done.
The ECHR would have something to say about that
 

nw1

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Not sure it's that comparable. Certainly, the behaviour of thugs who have been rioting/attacking hotels/etc. is massively worse than that of the Just Stop Oil protestors. But on the other hand the protestors you're thinking of got such long sentences in part because they'd been deliberately conspiring and planning the disruption they caused over an extended period of time. That's a aggravating factor in sentencing. But I'm guessing it won't apply to most of the people rioting this week - because it's more likely they just turned up looking for some trouble, with no planning.

I don't know much about sentencing guidelines, but my gut feeling is 5 years in prison feels right for the people involved in the riots.
I would say that is too soft for some of the more severe cases. Certainly the savages petrol-bombing hotels with the aim, doubtless, of brutally slaughtering asylum seekers need to have the book thrown at them.

Just Stop Oil are nothing like as bad as the current rioters. I cannot recall a case in which Just Stop Oil fought pitched battles with the police and firebombed businesses, for example - though apologies if they have and I missed it. They have merely carried out what I'd call "soft nuisance".
Maybe because Reform are not far-right? They are a party that on the whole believes in small Government and free markets, and also in national identity and low immigration.
I'm not sure I see much difference between Reform and the RN to be honest. The RN are not quite as right-wing as the National Front under Le Pen's father and are not fascists, yet they are still widely labelled as far-right. Remember that the RN have attracted 30-35% of the vote in France, far more than Reform here.

Witness Farage's comments in the past week about the "truth being hidden from us" and his past blatantly xenophobic comments directed at certain nationalities, for example, as well as Reform candidates saying some truly horrific things during the election campaign. Or Farage apparently semi-defending Putin by claiming he was provoked into invading Ukraine by the EU and NATO.

Reform are not, in my view, merely right-wing Conservatives. They are something else entirely.

I really don't think it's acceptable to conflate the views of people (like Suella Braverman) who happen to believe immigration should be lower, but who work within the normal political processes, with the awful thuggery, arson, and attempts at intimidation that we've seen over the last week - much of it I suspect by people who have no interest in politics but are happy with any excuse for a bit of violence. (Just as, on the other side, it wouldn't be fair to conflate the views of many people who are very concerned about the environment and want to see drastic action to decarbonise the economy with the awful actions of Just Stop Oil)

I'm not at all saying that people like Braverman, or even Farage, would advocate rioting. However the past few years have produced a climate where hardline and militant anti-immigration views have become more mainstream - and thus, those who hold extremely miltant views on the matter perhaps feel empowered to cross the line into violence.
 
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Lewisham2221

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Why? Because of what we've seen. Because social media moves, literally in many cases, at the speed of light. This started because rumours about the attacker being a Muslim extremist fresh off a boat. Getting the ruling out sooner might have at least calmed things a little.
{Snip}
The disinformation spread because nothing was coming out officially, so yeah it may well have quelled some of the anger before things kicked off.
A woman was stabbed in Scotland. The police and media almost immediately announced that the suspect was a white male. Despite this, many of the right wing knuckle dragging variety are still insisting, on social media, that the suspect is in fact of a middle eastern/Muslim background. Racist scumbags will believe whatever they want to believe if it they think it justifies their disgusting, thuggish behaviour.
 

renegademaster

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Why can't they deport all the violent ones to Rwanda? They wouldn't need to care about Britain anymore...
The same reason the Tories couldn't. Human rights law. Anyone with fantasies of mass jailings is gonna find the exact same problems the Tories had with their fantasies of locking up every shoplifter
 

WelshBluebird

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In terms of prisons, if there is a space issue I'd expect priority to be given to violent offenders like these rioters. There will be loads of prisoners currently locked up for non violent offences (like the JSO lot).
 
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