FANTASY: redesign your own TOC's timetable

[nw1]

This has perhaps come up before but some time ago.

Anyway, the idea is to take your local TOC's timetable, or part of it, and completely redesign it. Rewinding the clock to previous eras is permitted, and exact times are not necessary (though you can include them if you wish). You are not bound by the current lack of funding of the railway (so need not implement a 2020s-style austerity system, feel free to rewind to the good times). Pure fantasy is allowed, but you have to stick with the existing lines and stations - but feel free to include links and connections which you feel are sorely missing.

Full analysis of pathing and clashes is not necessary. For example if you give times, these are only necessary in one direction, and times can be considered rough i.e. "look like they will work" without a detailed analysis.

Also you can assume any stock will be running the network, doesn't have to be the stock actually currently running it (so you could choose stock with short dwell times, for instance).

Optional: include peak as well as off-peak.

So I will start with the mainline South Western lines out of Waterloo, and will go back to the 90s for my base ideas; I always thought the late 80s and the 90s provided some of the best timetables on the network. This has strong similarities to the 1997 pattern but is somewhat enhanced. Essentially I'm using 1997 as my inspiration off-peak, and 1989 for the peak.

SWML:

xx30 crack Weymouth express. Fast to Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole and all to Weymouth.
xx33 Portsmouth via Eastleigh. Clapham Junction, Woking, Farnborough, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh and all stations
xx50 Weymouth semi-fast. Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch and all to Weymouth
xx10 Brockenhurst semi-fast. Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway and Southampton Central, then loop for following xx30 to pass, then all to Brockenhurst
xx13 and xx43 Basingstoke or Southampton Central stoppers. Clapham, Surbiton, Woking then all stations. xx13 to extend to SOU to provide 2tph to Swaythling and St Denys, follows xx30 from Basingstoke, connects with xx33 at Eastleigh

Note how this provides one express service, 3tph to Southampton Central (albeit one faster than the other two) and 3tph on the Waterloo-Clapham-Woking-Basingstoke-Winchester-Eastleigh axis.

Also:

Brockenhurst-Poole shuttle, connecting out of the xx30 at Brockenhurst. With the xx50 this should provide even interval service to New Milton, Christchurch and all stations to Poole.
Salisbury-Southampton Central via Chandlers Ford, timed to provide a reasonably even 2tph to Swaythling and St Denys, connecting out of xx10 at Eastleigh

Portsmouth Direct:

xx00 fast: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH
xx20 semi-fast: Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS. PH
xx40 fast: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH
xx46 stopper: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, all to Haslemere, loop to allow xx00 to pass, all to Portsmouth and Southsea

The first three very similar to 1997 with slightly altered stops, the xx46 is a fantasy invention. Designed to give 3tph at reasonably even intervals to both Haslemere and Petersfield, by connection in one case for the latter, while also speeding up Portsmouth services somewhat.

Alton line:
xx26 and xx56 Clapham (xx56) or Surbiton(xx26), Woking and all stations

Stoppers :

xx23 and xx53 Clapham (xx23 skips due to services behind) Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon and Guildford (similar to 1997)
xx09 and xx39 (SL) Vauxhall, Clapham, Wimbledon, Surbiton, and all stations to Woking (identical to 1997). 455 operated, others operated by mainline stock

Exeter route:

xx36 Exeter: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, all to Honiton, Exeter Central and Exeter St Davids. Local stations Honiton-Exeter to be served with additional shuttles, part of the GW network.
xx03 Salisbury: Clapham, Woking, Farnborough, Fleet, Basingstoke and all.

Solent local line:

1tph Southampton to Portsmouth stopper
1tph Southampton to Portsmouth semi-fast: St Denys, Woolston, Netley, Swanwick, Fareham and then all stations

Brockenhurst-Lymington:

Connects out of the xx30 and xx50 ex-Waterloo


Waterloo peak:

I would use the 1989 peak timetable from 1700 onwards (see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...weymouth-electrification.257229/#post-6486175) with the 1730 and 1800 also conveying a portion for Portsmouth via Fareham. My key reasoning is to use a peak timetable before the 1991 reductions kicked in.

I would also insert two additionals to ensure peak uplift on two lines: 1728 to Alton and 1802 to Salisbury. The 1815 Exeter would skip Overton, Whitchurch and Grateley as a result, assuming it did call at said stations in 1989.

Also assuming, in this alternate reality, electrification to Salisbury hence EMUs on services which terminate there.

 

[A S Leib]

Not quite sure who counts as my own TOC; LNER, TPE, XC, Lumo, Northern or Tyne and Wear Metro. There's nothing I'd change about the Metro's timetable apart from extensions (Washington etc.) and there's already an LNER thread up, so I'm going for TPE and XC. I'd have it more or less as the December 2019 timetable was supposed to be, apart from

- ½ tph Newcastle – Glasgow Central via Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston, East Linton (when it opens), Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Carstairs and Motherwell
- 1 tph Liverpool Lime Street – Carlisle via St. Helens Central, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District (which loses its TPE Manchester calls) and Penrith (North Lakes)
- ½ tph Bradford Interchange – Newcastle via Shipley, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Eaglescliffe and Hartlepool (in opposite hours to semifast Newcastle – Middlesbrough Northern services)

For XC if they could just restore the pre-pandemic timetable I'd largely be satisfied, although one change I'd make would be extending Reading terminators to Basingstoke and Salisbury.

 

[43066]

EMR IC and Connect to take priority over all other services, with Thameslinks confined to the MML slows where they belong (this would allow the 02/05 and 32/35 St Pancras departures to have several minutes knocked off their running time). No EMR services to call at Luton town.

All Northbound Connect services to be crossed to the slows at Wellingborough south.

EMR Connect services to be worked exclusively by Kettering based traincrew.

 

[30907]

As far as the SW Main line is concerned, I think you should aim at half-hourly intervals as far as possible, with the busiest stations having multiple half-hourly services (not necessarily with exactly the same stops).
(The 15-15-30 pattern which some stations eg Fleet have recently had isn't memorable enough to be worth it, even if it is slightly better attuned to customer demand.)

You obviously can't do that to everywhere, so beyond Brockenhurst and to Salisbury you have to stick with 1 fast 1 slow from London.

So:
2tph Southampton Parkway or Winchester first stop, thence to Weymouth (as above beyond Brockenhurst).
2tph semi-fast (CLJ-WOK-BAS-WIN) to Eastleigh, one continuing to Portsmouth one to Bournemouth/Poole
2tph Salisbury (CLJ-WOK-BAS etc)
2tph Basingstoke (one continuing to SOU) "slow."

The Portsmouth Direct would similarly be 2 fast 2 slow beyond Woking.

That's only a bare outline - you might perhaps add CLJ to the Weymouths, and you might serve Micheldever/Shawford on the semi-fasts and cut the Southampton slow. Farnborough (and Fleet?) might deserve 4tph, but adding them to the semi-fasts would slow them down too much and 4tph on the slow line West of Pirbright might be excessive....

 

[Bald Rick]

EMR IC and Connect to take priority over all other services, with Thameslinks confined to the MML slows where they belong (this would allow the 02/05 and 32/35 St Pancras departures to have several minutes knocked off their running time)

as I sure you know, all the Thameslink servcies wouldn’t fit on the slows

 

[TheBigD]

EMR IC and Connect to take priority over all other services, with Thameslinks confined to the MML slows where they belong (this would allow the 02/05 and 32/35 St Pancras departures to have several minutes knocked off their running time). No EMR services to call at Luton town.

All Northbound Connect services to be crossed to the slows at Wellingborough south.

EMR Connect services to be worked exclusively by Kettering based traincrew.

Happy to be corrected, but I think you can only cross from the down fast to the slows at either Sharnbrook, or north of Wellingborough. You can only cross from the slows to the up fast at Wellingborough South.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Not quite sure who counts as my own TOC; LNER, TPE, XC, Lumo, Northern or Tyne and Wear Metro. There's nothing I'd change about the Metro's timetable apart from extensions (Washington etc.) and there's already an LNER thread up, so I'm going for TPE and XC. I'd have it more or less as the December 2019 timetable was supposed to be, apart from

- ½ tph Newcastle – Glasgow Central via Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston, East Linton (when it opens), Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Carstairs and Motherwell
- 1 tph Liverpool Lime Street – Carlisle via St. Helens Central, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District (which loses its TPE Manchester calls) and Penrith (North Lakes)
- ½ tph Bradford Interchange – Newcastle via Shipley, Leeds, Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Eaglescliffe and Hartlepool (in opposite hours to semifast Newcastle – Middlesbrough Northern services)

For XC if they could just restore the pre-pandemic timetable I'd largely be satisfied, although one change I'd make would be extending Reading terminators to Basingstoke and Salisbury.

Being based in York, I agree with that, I would also like to have your proposed TPE Glasgow service go to York, especially with LNER supposedly axing the service in December 2024.

 

[Peter0124]

Being based in York, I agree with that, I would also like to have your proposed TPE Glasgow service go to York, especially with LNER supposedly axing the service in December 2024.

What LNER service is being axed?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Being based in York @A S Leib covered a lot of what I would do.

I think that I would add a TPE Newcastle-Manchester Airport meaning that there would be 2tph between York and Manchester Airport.

Perhaps Hull Trains could do a Hull-Edinburgh service via Selby, York, Darlington, Newcastle and Berwick.

More frequent Northern services between York and Sheffield and perhaps 2tph between York and Selby with 1tph going to Hull.

I would like a York-Skipton service (perhaps when York-Leeds is electrified) by extending the Airdale stopper.

I would love for Lumo to serve York, but that won't happen.

I would prefer for XC to prioritise reinstating 1tph on the Newcastle-Reading, compared to a Cardiff-Edinburgh service.

LNER already has a thread and I would leave GC, so that's about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

What LNER service is being axed?

King's Cross-Glasgow Central.

 

[43066]

as I sure you know, all the Thameslink servcies wouldn’t fit on the slows

Details details. Easily solved by simply eliminating the ones that don’t fit on the slows from the timetable. Crack class 1 express trains shouldn’t be held up by class 9 commuter juicers.

The joys of a fantasy timetable!

Happy to be corrected, but I think you can only cross from the down fast to the slows at either Sharnbrook, or north of Wellingborough. You can only cross from the slows to the up fast at Wellingborough South.

Okay, so my timetable might require some prohibitively expensive track realignment and re signalling, as well as elimination of lucrative and useful TL services .

Crossing all the northbound Connects at Kettering North would be a big help - and possible on current infrastructure - only not done currently due to freight paths that don’t always run, AIUI.

 

[PTR 444]

This has perhaps come up before but some time ago.

Anyway, the idea is to take your local TOC's timetable, or part of it, and completely redesign it. Rewinding the clock to previous eras is permitted, and exact times are not necessary (though you can include them if you wish). You are not bound by the current lack of funding of the railway (so need not implement a 2020s-style austerity system, feel free to rewind to the good times). Pure fantasy is allowed, but you have to stick with the existing lines and stations - but feel free to include links and connections which you feel are sorely missing.

Full analysis of pathing and clashes is not necessary. For example if you give times, these are only necessary in one direction, and times can be considered rough i.e. "look like they will work" without a detailed analysis.

Also you can assume any stock will be running the network, doesn't have to be the stock actually currently running it (so you could choose stock with short dwell times, for instance).

Optional: include peak as well as off-peak.

So I will start with the mainline South Western lines out of Waterloo, and will go back to the 90s for my base ideas; I always thought the late 80s and the 90s provided some of the best timetables on the network. This has strong similarities to the 1997 pattern but is somewhat enhanced. Essentially I'm using 1997 as my inspiration off-peak, and 1989 for the peak.

SWML:

xx30 crack Weymouth express. Fast to Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole and all to Weymouth.
xx33 Portsmouth via Eastleigh. Clapham Junction, Woking, Farnborough, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh and all stations
xx50 Weymouth semi-fast. Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch and all to Weymouth
xx10 Brockenhurst semi-fast. Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway and Southampton Central, then loop for following xx30 to pass, then all to Brockenhurst
xx13 and xx43 Basingstoke or Southampton Central stoppers. Clapham, Surbiton, Woking then all stations. xx13 to extend to SOU to provide 2tph to Swaythling and St Denys, follows xx30 from Basingstoke, connects with xx33 at Eastleigh

Note how this provides one express service, 3tph to Southampton Central (albeit one faster than the other two) and 3tph on the Waterloo-Clapham-Woking-Basingstoke-Winchester-Eastleigh axis.

Also:

Brockenhurst-Poole shuttle, connecting out of the xx30 at Brockenhurst. With the xx50 this should provide even interval service to New Milton, Christchurch and all stations to Poole.
Salisbury-Southampton Central via Chandlers Ford, timed to provide a reasonably even 2tph to Swaythling and St Denys, connecting out of xx10 at Eastleigh

Portsmouth Direct:

xx00 fast: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH
xx20 semi-fast: Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS. PH
xx40 fast: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH
xx46 stopper: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, all to Haslemere, loop to allow xx00 to pass, all to Portsmouth and Southsea

The first three very similar to 1997 with slightly altered stops, the xx46 is a fantasy invention. Designed to give 3tph at reasonably even intervals to both Haslemere and Petersfield, by connection in one case for the latter, while also speeding up Portsmouth services somewhat.

Alton line:
xx26 and xx56 Clapham (xx56) or Surbiton(xx26), Woking and all stations

Stoppers :

xx23 and xx53 Clapham (xx23 skips due to services behind) Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon and Guildford (similar to 1997)
xx09 and xx39 (SL) Vauxhall, Clapham, Wimbledon, Surbiton, and all stations to Woking (identical to 1997). 455 operated, others operated by mainline stock

Exeter route:

xx36 Exeter: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, all to Honiton, Exeter Central and Exeter St Davids. Local stations Honiton-Exeter to be served with additional shuttles, part of the GW network.
xx03 Salisbury: Clapham, Woking, Farnborough, Fleet, Basingstoke and all.

Solent local line:

1tph Southampton to Portsmouth stopper
1tph Southampton to Portsmouth semi-fast: St Denys, Woolston, Netley, Swanwick, Fareham and then all stations

Brockenhurst-Lymington:

Connects out of the xx30 and xx50 ex-Waterloo


Waterloo peak:

I would use the 1989 peak timetable from 1700 onwards (see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...weymouth-electrification.257229/#post-6486175) with the 1730 and 1800 also conveying a portion for Portsmouth via Fareham. My key reasoning is to use a peak timetable before the 1991 reductions kicked in.

I would also insert two additionals to ensure peak uplift on two lines: 1728 to Alton and 1802 to Salisbury. The 1815 Exeter would skip Overton, Whitchurch and Grateley as a result, assuming it did call at said stations in 1989.

Also assuming, in this alternate reality, electrification to Salisbury hence EMUs on services which terminate there.

As far as the SW Main line is concerned, I think you should aim at half-hourly intervals as far as possible, with the busiest stations having multiple half-hourly services (not necessarily with exactly the same stops).
(The 15-15-30 pattern which some stations eg Fleet have recently had isn't memorable enough to be worth it, even if it is slightly better attuned to customer demand.)

You obviously can't do that to everywhere, so beyond Brockenhurst and to Salisbury you have to stick with 1 fast 1 slow from London.

So:
2tph Southampton Parkway or Winchester first stop, thence to Weymouth (as above beyond Brockenhurst).
2tph semi-fast (CLJ-WOK-BAS-WIN) to Eastleigh, one continuing to Portsmouth one to Bournemouth/Poole
2tph Salisbury (CLJ-WOK-BAS etc)
2tph Basingstoke (one continuing to SOU) "slow."

The Portsmouth Direct would similarly be 2 fast 2 slow beyond Woking.

That's only a bare outline - you might perhaps add CLJ to the Weymouths, and you might serve Micheldever/Shawford on the semi-fasts and cut the Southampton slow. Farnborough (and Fleet?) might deserve 4tph, but adding them to the semi-fasts would slow them down too much and 4tph on the slow line West of Pirbright might be excessive....

Assuming capacity allows, I’d run 2tph Weymouths fast from Waterloo to Winchester, then have a 2tph semi-fast Poole/Bournemouth service flighted directly behind them. These would call at CLJ, WOK (1tph), BSK (1tph), WIN, SOA and SOU, then the following:

1st train per hour calls at Totton, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth, Branksome, Parkstone, POOLE

2nd train per hour calls at Totton, Ashurst, Beaulieu Road, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown, BOURNEMOUTH

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would do several things. Firstly, get rid of Thames link from North Kent, their service would be curtailed to start at Dartford and would serve all stations on whichever one of the Dartford lines they so chose to operate.

2TPH Gillingham to London Charing cross, all stations to Gravesend then fast to Dartford, abbey wood, Woolwich arsenal and London bridge, additional calls put into Dartford to Gravesend services

1TPH rainham to Tonbridge via the Medway valley, and additional train per hour through the Medway towns with a lot of opportunities for connecting services and new journey opportunities created

Kent rounders reintroduced to the high speed 395 services

Divert one of the fast classic line services, probably the one from Margate and Ramsgate to canon Street all day, last pick up Rochester with sat down only at London bridge therefore offering a wider choice of London terminals and providing a truly fast service without having to pay for the high speed premium

Extend the Victoria to Gillingham stopping service to faversham calling all stations providing an additional train per hour for all the villages on this route, divert the Dover and Canterbury to Victoria service to call at Beckenham junction on the way in and out of London providing much needed bus and tram connections and easier pick up and drop off for those wishing it then is currently afforded at an increasingly congested Bromley South



Retirement sevenoaks services at swanley to connect better with mainline services from other destinations, there is currently rather hefty weight and no realistic bus alternative for those wishing to make this journey
2 hourly extension of Medway valley train from Tunbridge to Redhill and Gatwick, direct link to Gatwick desperately needed but currently involves multiple changes and cannot be done on a through ticket

Adjust morning peak travel times for the purposes of tickets to anything departing after 6:00 a.m., therefore providing an opportunity for those wishing to travel super early to London to pay an off-peak fare.


Insure that Southeastern services calling at London bridge from Kent connected well into fast TL services for Luton airport

 

[Bald Rick]

Crossing all the northbound Connects at Kettering North would be a big help - and possible on current infrastructure - only not done currently due to freight paths that don’t always run, AIUI.

The northbound connects are very tight to the following Sheffield at Kettering, and any delay at all to the connect will trigger desly to the Sheffield and by consequence the Nottingham. The solition to that is to have them go over at Wellingborough north, and IIRC that is what happens from the December timetable

 

[Trainguy34]

I would do several things. Firstly, get rid of Thames link from North Kent, their service would be curtailed to start at Dartford and would serve all stations on whichever one of the Dartford lines they so chose to operate.

2TPH Gillingham to London Charing cross, all stations to Gravesend then fast to Dartford, abbey wood, Woolwich arsenal and London bridge, additional calls put into Dartford to Gravesend services

1TPH rainham to Tonbridge via the Medway valley, and additional train per hour through the Medway towns with a lot of opportunities for connecting services and new journey opportunities created

Kent rounders reintroduced to the high speed 395 services

Divert one of the fast classic line services, probably the one from Margate and Ramsgate to canon Street all day, last pick up Rochester with sat down only at London bridge therefore offering a wider choice of London terminals and providing a truly fast service without having to pay for the high speed premium

Extend the Victoria to Gillingham stopping service to faversham calling all stations providing an additional train per hour for all the villages on this route, divert the Dover and Canterbury to Victoria service to call at Beckenham junction on the way in and out of London providing much needed bus and tram connections and easier pick up and drop off for those wishing it then is currently afforded at an increasingly congested Bromley South



Retirement sevenoaks services at swanley to connect better with mainline services from other destinations, there is currently rather hefty weight and no realistic bus alternative for those wishing to make this journey
2 hourly extension of Medway valley train from Tunbridge to Redhill and Gatwick, direct link to Gatwick desperately needed but currently involves multiple changes and cannot be done on a through ticket

Adjust morning peak travel times for the purposes of tickets to anything departing after 6:00 a.m., therefore providing an opportunity for those wishing to travel super early to London to pay an off-peak fare.


Insure that Southeastern services calling at London bridge from Kent connected well into fast TL services for Luton airport

Its a yes from me, apart from curtailing the TL to Dartford, I think that if it serves Brighton then maybe Faversham could be served, always though Rainham was an odd choice, meaning the stopping classic (DVP/RAM-VIC) could run fast all of the time.

 

[43096]

Details details. Easily solved by simply eliminating the ones that don’t fit on the slows from the timetable. Crack class 1 express trains shouldn’t be held up by class 9 commuter juicers.

The joys of a fantasy timetable!



Okay, so my timetable might require some prohibitively expensive track realignment and re signalling, as well as elimination of lucrative and useful TL services .

Crossing all the northbound Connects at Kettering North would be a big help - and possible on current infrastructure - only not done currently due to freight paths that don’t always run, AIUI.

If you're re-writing the Midland timetable, then sorting out the lack of connectivity from the intermediate shacks south of Leicester to Derby/Sheffield should also be done. Swapping the Sheffield semi-fast and Nottingham fast paths over would help, with the Sheffield semi-fast getting the Kettering and Market Harborough calls from the Nottingham. That way all MML shacks are a maximum of one connection away from each other.

 

[nw1]

As far as the SW Main line is concerned, I think you should aim at half-hourly intervals as far as possible, with the busiest stations having multiple half-hourly services (not necessarily with exactly the same stops).
(The 15-15-30 pattern which some stations eg Fleet have recently had isn't memorable enough to be worth it, even if it is slightly better attuned to customer demand.)

You obviously can't do that to everywhere, so beyond Brockenhurst and to Salisbury you have to stick with 1 fast 1 slow from London.

So:
2tph Southampton Parkway or Winchester first stop, thence to Weymouth (as above beyond Brockenhurst).
2tph semi-fast (CLJ-WOK-BAS-WIN) to Eastleigh, one continuing to Portsmouth one to Bournemouth/Poole
2tph Salisbury (CLJ-WOK-BAS etc)
2tph Basingstoke (one continuing to SOU) "slow."

The Portsmouth Direct would similarly be 2 fast 2 slow beyond Woking.

That's only a bare outline - you might perhaps add CLJ to the Weymouths, and you might serve Micheldever/Shawford on the semi-fasts and cut the Southampton slow. Farnborough (and Fleet?) might deserve 4tph, but adding them to the semi-fasts would slow them down too much and 4tph on the slow line West of Pirbright might be excessive....

Perhaps there was a bit of nostalgia / romance in wishing to reintroduce the old xx30 Weymouth express, admittedly, which drove my whole design, with the xx33 Portsmouth via Fareham plugging the gap in Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester and Eastleigh provision, giving an approx. 20 min interval between all those stations.

Farnborough is probably important enough for 4tph, hence the stops in the Portsmouth and Salisbury services; the 03/13/33/43 pattern also gives a reasonably even-interval service. I also chose the xx03 Salisbury for a Farnborough (and Fleet) stop rather than the xx10 Brockenhurst to avoid slowing the latter down too much and thus making it useful as part of a 20-min interval Southampton service (of the sort that typified much of the 90s).

However I did also consider a pattern more like what you describe with a 30-min headway rather than 20. So here is an alternative set of services out of Waterloo, all at half-hourly frequency:

1. Weymouth, as above. Both now call Winchester. One calls Clapham, as you suggest, and also calls New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown, Bournemouth and all. The faster service however is fast Brockenhurst to Bournemouth, then Poole and all. Brockenhurst-Poole shuttle still connects off the fastest of the two services to give even interval service to New Milton, Christchurch and Pokesdown. I suggest the flagship xx30 and xx00 slots, with xx30 for the faster (nostalgia reasons)

2. Semi-fasts as you suggest: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway, Southampton Central, with one being looped and then continuing to Brockenhurst. Leaves around 10 mins after 1) so around xx40 and xx10. Note that I'm suggesting a split in the "stopper" at Brockenhurst (i.e Waterloo-BCU semi-fast and BCU-Poole stopper) to ensure that the BCU-Poole stopper can connect with the faster Weymouth without being constrained by the timings of the semi-fast east of Brockenhurst.

3. Clapham, Woking, Farnborough, Fleet, Basingstoke, then one to Salisbury, which is EMU operated in this fantasy world, and one for Portsmouth via Eastleigh

4. Exeter: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, all to Honiton, Exeter Central and St Davids. The sole remaining DMU service. Leaves 3 mins behind Portsmouth via Eastleigh and thus 27 mins in front of the Salisbury.

5. Clapham, Surbiton, Woking, all to Basingstoke then 1tph extends to Southampton Central. To leave 10-15 mins behind 3) to give even interval service to Farnborough and Fleet

6. Alton: Clapham, Woking and all

7. Portsmouth Direct fasts: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH. I suggest the prime xx45 and xx15 slots

8. Portsmouth Direct slower service. Clapham, Woking and Guildford, then (1tph) Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS and PH and (1tph) all stations. Would leave around 10 mins behind the fasts (i.e. xx55 and xx25) allowing both, presumably, to arrive Portsmouth still in front of the following fast, so no looping necessary.

9. Clapham, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon and Guildford. Between Woking and Guildford, ideally slots into the 20 min gap between 7) and 8), if possible

10. (SL throughout) Vauxhall, Clapham, Wimbledon, Surbiton and all to Woking. Leaves around 12 mins behind 9) to avoid 9) catching it up at the other end

Solent local services:

11. Salisbury-Romsey-Chandlers Ford-Eastleigh-Southampton calling all stations, on the opposite half-hour to the SOU service of 5)

12. Brockenhurst-Poole shuttle, connecting off faster Weymouth

13. Southampton-Portsmouth stopper

14. Southampton-Portsmouth semi-fast: St Denys, Woolston, Netley, Swanwick, Fareham and all

15. Brockenhurst-Lymington, connecting off 1)

 

[30907]

2. Semi-fasts as you suggest: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway, Southampton Central, with one being looped and then continuing to Brockenhurst. Leaves around 10 mins after 1) so around xx40 and xx10

I would add Micheldever/Shawford and run alternately to Pompey....

3. Clapham, Woking, Farnborough, Fleet, Basingstoke, then one to Salisbury, which is EMU operated in this fantasy world, and one for Portsmouth via Eastleigh

See previous

4. Exeter: Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, all to Honiton, Exeter Central and St Davids. The sole remaining DMU service. Leaves 3 mins behind Portsmouth via Eastleigh and thus 27 mins in front of the Salisbury.

Half-hourly??

5. Clapham, Surbiton, Woking, all to Basingstoke then 1tph extends to Southampton Central. To leave 10-15 mins behind 3) to give even interval service to Farnborough and Fleet

If Farnborouh/Fleet get faster trains as 3, then perhaps these could pick up Walton etc off 9.

6. Alton: Clapham, Woking and all

7. Portsmouth Direct fasts: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH. I suggest the prime xx45 and xx15 slots

8. Portsmouth Direct slower service. Clapham, Woking and Guildford, then (1tph) Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS and PH and (1tph) all stations. Would leave around 10 mins behind the fasts (i.e. xx55 and xx25) allowing both, presumably, to arrive Portsmouth still in front of the following fast, so no looping necessary.

Agree

9. Clapham, Wimbledon, Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, West Byfleet, Woking, Worplesdon and Guildford. Between Woking and Guildford, ideally slots into the 20 min gap between 7) and 8), if possible.

Delete, see above.

14. Southampton-Portsmouth semi-fast: St Denys, Woolston, Netley, Swanwick, Fareham and all

Agree - but SN are also operating 2tph over this section, is this overkill?

That's a similar hymn-sheet overall

Not sure whether so may trains need to call at CLJ though, but that's detail.

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure whether so may trains need to call at CLJ though, but that's detail.

The number serving Clapham Junction has to be limited because of the slow speed in the up direction through platform 7 and to just enable sufficient throughput of services.

 

[nw1]

I would add Micheldever/Shawford and run alternately to Pompey....

Wanted to (as you suggested in your previous post) offer a 2tph service linking the principal towns between London and Southampton without being slowed down by the smaller stops.

Half-hourly??

Idea is half-hourly to Farnborough and Fleet, provided by the Portsmouth via Eastleigh and the Salisbury. The Exeter as a result is significantly faster than the Salisbury so it makes sense that it leaves less than half an hour before the Salisbury.

If Farnborouh/Fleet get faster trains as 3, then perhaps these could pick up Walton etc off 9.

Possibly yes but note that 9) also calls at Wimbledon so you end up with quite a slow service to Winchfield and Hook. Half-hourly Guildford stoppers always used to exist so there is previous form for it.

Agree

Delete, see above.

Agree - but SN are also operating 2tph over this section, is this overkill?

One thing I've always thought (as a resident of the area) is that the Southampton-Portsmouth city-to-city service is relatively poor, one fast and one slow very close together at the Portsmouth end. Also the more important intermediate stations could do with more frequently than hourly. Perhaps drop one SN to make room for the semi-fast, and route the SN to Gatwick via Hove (fast along the coast, as per the original 1990 service) thus serving both the Brighton (with change at Hove) and Gatwick markets? I know it's another TOC/area, but I'd suggest a calling pattern of this 1tph Southern service as Swanwick, Fareham, Cosham, Havant, Chichester, Barnham, Worthing, Shoreham, Hove, Haywards Heath, Gatwick, East Croydon, Clapham Junction and Victoria, and be 8-car throughout.

Not sure whether so may trains need to call at CLJ though, but that's detail.

Important interchange station, but perhaps it could be removed from the Portsmouth fasts (as Portsmouth has SN connectivity to the Gatwick/Croydon area anyhow).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

The number serving Clapham Junction has to be limited because of the slow speed in the up direction through platform 7 and to just enable sufficient throughput of services.

Remember of course this is a fantasy thread, stock is flexible, and I guess re-signalling could be done to allow more frequent services. In theory one could imagine a 3-min frequency of services all calling Clapham (1 min dwell time, 2 min gap, 1 min dwell time, 2 min gap, etc).

 

[JonathanH]

Remember of course this is a fantasy thread

Half-hourly Guildford stoppers always used to exist so there is previous form for it.

I think you would be needing the Woking flyover as well as Clapham Junction remodelling. Maybe also some extra four tracking between Basingstoke and Southampton, and somewhere in the New Forest.

 

[nw1]

I think you would be needing the Woking flyover as well as Clapham Junction remodelling. Maybe also some extra four tracking between Basingstoke and Southampton, and somewhere in the New Forest.

Then again there were 6tph in 1999 between Woking and Guildford (four down the Direct and two Guildford terminators) and the number of services through the New Forest is no greater than recent pre-Covid timetables (2 Weymouths and 1 BCU semi-fast east of Brockenhurst; 2 Weymouths and a BCU-Poole shuttle west thereof; and an hourly XC of course).

I could agree to remove the Guildford terminators, add Worplesdon stops into the Portsmouth stoppers, and add the Walton, Weybridge and West Byfleet calls into the Basingstoke/Southampton slows as suggested by @30907, as long as Worplesdon calls don't result in the Portsmouth stoppers being caught up by the following fasts on the suggested 10-20 scheme.

And/or, move to portion working with one of the Southampton semi-fasts (divides at Eastleigh, half to Portsmouth), terminate both stoppers at Basingstoke, and divert the existing Portsmouth service (calling Farnborough and Fleet, see 3) above) to Southampton Central calling all stations after Basingstoke. As this is a fantasy thread, splitting and joining time could be reduced to what it was in the 80s (FP 2 min, RP 4min).

 

[JonathanH]

Then again there were 6tph in 1999 between Woking and Guildford

It is the combination of the number of Guildford, and number of 'straight on' services that is most important, although some parallel moves work fine.

The issue with the line west of Redbridge is that putting 'out and out fast' services down the line means they catch up the slower ones. In the 2007 to 2020 timetable the faster Weymouth had to have the Branksome and Parkstone stops to have a reasonable spread of Weymouth arrivals and departures, and deal with the single line section.

One aspiration previously stated by some posters was a better spread of stopping services in the Bournemouth / Christchurch / Poole conurbation, just as you desire for Southampton / Portsmouth. Two track railway doesn't help either cause.

 

[nw1]

It is the combination of the number of Guildford, and number of 'straight on' services that is most important, although some parallel moves work fine.

Yes I realised that and then edited my post with some other "compromise" suggestions.

The issue with the line west of Redbridge is that putting 'out and out fast' services down the line means they catch up the slower ones. In the 2007 to 2020 timetable the faster Weymouth had to have the Branksome and Parkstone stops to have a reasonable spread of Weymouth arrivals and departures, and deal with the single line section.

One aspiration previously stated by some posters was a better spread of stopping services in the Bournemouth / Christchurch / Poole conurbation, just as you desire for Southampton / Portsmouth. Two track railway doesn't help either cause.

That's what I'm trying to do with the suggested Brockenhurst-Poole shuttle, which connects off the faster Weymouth. The two Weymouths would be still close to 30 mins apart at BCU (Clapham is the only difference between the two east of there). This would allow an approx 30-min interval service to New Milton, Christchurch and all stations to Poole.

Agree the single line is a big constraint down to Weymouth though. Arguably it was probably easier to have a better spread when there was 1tph to Weymouth, but we can't go back to that now as people are now used to 2tph, so I haven't proposed that!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps there was a bit of nostalgia / romance in wishing to reintroduce the old xx30 Weymouth express, admittedly, which drove my whole design, with the xx33 Portsmouth via Fareham plugging the gap in Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester and Eastleigh provision, giving an approx. 20 min interval between all those stations.

The reason the xx30 Weymouth was moved to xx.35 in the December 2004 re-cast was to push it further behind the Cross Country service so it wasn’t chasing that all the way to Bournemouth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

7. Portsmouth Direct fasts: Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH. I suggest the prime xx45 and xx15 slots

8. Portsmouth Direct slower service. Clapham, Woking and Guildford, then (1tph) Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS and PH and (1tph) all stations. Would leave around 10 mins behind the fasts (i.e. xx55 and xx25) allowing both, presumably, to arrive Portsmouth still in front of the following fast, so no looping necessary.

I’m not quite sure in a post Covid world where markets have changed why you would reduce the service at Godalming when it has overtaken Petersfield in terms of passenger usage.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2023 ==

Then again there were 6tph in 1999 between Woking and Guildford (four down the Direct and two Guildford terminators) and the number of services through the New Forest is no greater than recent pre-Covid timetables (2 Weymouths and 1 BCU semi-fast east of Brockenhurst; 2 Weymouths and a BCU-Poole shuttle west thereof; and an hourly XC of course).

To improve performance in the 2004 recast the junction margin at Woking was increased from 2 to 3 minutes. This has reduced capacity but greatly improved performance.

 

[stan claire]

I’m not overly bothered about the main Northern timetable, it’s just my local line’s (Manchester to Preston) timetable that I want to redesign with extra delusion (delulu is the new solulu). This timetable is dependent on the Bolton to Wigan electrification.

Service 1 - Hourly Headbolt Lane - Wigan Wallgate - Walkden - Manchester Victoria - Todmorden - Brighouse - Leeds calling at the same stations as HBL - WGW and WGW - LDS operated by 158/175 (lol)/195
Service 2 - Hourly Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Walkden - Manchester Victoria - Todmorden - Blackburn similar calling points to current HBL - BBN service. Operated by 150/156
Services 3 and 4 - Same service as currently except the Rochdale - Blackburn service is extended to Clitheroe, allowing for 2tph. Operated by 150/156
Service 5 - Hourly Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Bolton - Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Hazel Grove, following similar calling patterns to the SOP - MCO (also local stopping Bolton to Salford) and MAN - HAZ. Operated by 769
Service 6 - Hourly Wigan North Western - Bolton - Manchester Victoria - Stalybridge, calling points similar to the current SOP - SYB service. Operated by 331/0s, 323s (both sometimes doubled) and 319s (dependent on TRU)
Service 7 - Hourly (TPE) Edinburgh/Glasgow - Carlisle - Preston - Wigan NW - Bolton - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport, diverted via Westhoughton for extra Bolton - Preston capacity. Removal of set-down/pick-up restrictions at Bolton and additional peak services call at Westhoughton. Operated by 397/802
Service 8 - Hourly Windermere/Barrow - Lancaster - Preston - Wigan NW - Walkden - Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport service, diverted via Wigan and Walkden calling at Daisy Hill, Atherton and Walkden. Operated by 195/1 (mostly double) so it isn’t solely operated as a DMU under the wires. Peak services call at Swinton, Hag Fold and Hindley.
Services 9 and 10 - Half hourly Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North service, following the same pattern as MIA - BPN currently except both trains per hour call at Blackrod and Adlington. Operated mainly by double (and the sometimes single) 331/0s and a mix of double and single 379s ex GA.
Services 11 and 12 - Half hourly Alderley Edge to Lancaster service calling at Alderley Edge, Wilmslow, Styal, Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Chorley, Buckshaw Parkway, Preston and Lancaster. Operated by a mix of single and double 3 and 4 car 331s, as well as the odd 379 (usually doubled) and a small fleet of 385s to support this route. (I really said delulu is the solulu) Peak time services call at Deansgate, Blackrod and Adlington
Service 13 - Hourly Stalybridge - Buckshaw Parkway calling at all stations (excluding MSS, FNW, KSL and CLI) operated by 319, 331/1 and 379 with a quick turnaround at Buckshaw. Will run behind a service from Alderley Edge/Lancaster as the previous Vic - Preston service did while not putting TOO much on the WCML, also dependent on TRU
Service 16 - Extra peak time only Manchester Oxford Road - Bolton service, calling at every station. Operated by 319 and 331 and will help even out loads for commuters between trains. Also provides Moses Gate, Farnworth, Kearsley and Clifton with a Castlefield service and provides Clifton with a lot more services than there currently is.
Service 17 (having a giggle) - Buckshaw Parkway - Leeds calling at Chorley, Bolton, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Brighouse, Dewsbury and Leeds. Operated by 180 and 221 (northern high speed lol)
It’d also make sense to quadruple the line between Bolton and Salford Crescent + the new platforms they’re meant to be building. with the sheer amount of services I’ve put on here and share half of the services between each line (even if they’re a non-stop service), obviously complete Bolton to Wigan and Manchester to Stalybridge electrification and if Northern had access to more units/8 car platform lengths

This is completely fictional, and before you all come screaming at me I know it’s just about physically impossible to have a train come through Bolton every 5 minutes each way. If I could implement a part of this timetable it’d be the 4tph from Bolton to Preston - overcrowding is a problem especially at rush hour, short formations and after cancellations so this could make northern more reliable too

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If I could implement a part of this timetable it’d be the 4tph from Bolton to Preston - overcrowding is a problem especially at rush hour, short formations and after cancellations so this could make northern more reliable too

I get the point about cancellations and short forms but often the best way to deal with capacity issues that brings up is to tackle those not throw more trains into the mix - running more services rarely makes an operator more reliable (unless it’s met with an infrastructure upgrade).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not sure what it would look like timetable-wise, but I’d add a Charing Cross branch train through to Morden on the Northern Line every 10 to 15 mins through the day.

 

[whoosh]

EMR IC and Connect to take priority over all other services, with Thameslinks confined to the MML slows where they belong (this would allow the 02/05 and 32/35 St Pancras departures to have several minutes knocked off their running time). No EMR services to call at Luton town.

All Northbound Connect services to be crossed to the slows at Wellingborough south.

EMR Connect services to be worked exclusively by Kettering based traincrew.

On the Slow lines, where they belong?!

 

[nw1]

I’m not quite sure in a post Covid world where markets have changed why you would reduce the service at Godalming when it has overtaken Petersfield in terms of passenger usage.

Remember this is a fantasy thread, and Covid and all of its consequences haven't necessarily happened - I said as such in the opening post, and the changes are really supposed to be against the normal for the 2010s.

But more generally, I don't think a fast service to Portsmouth should be stopping every few miles. Portsmouth is a large enough city that it deserves a proper fast service.

 

[HS2isgood]

On the SWML. Full reordering of the timetable, basing most services on a 2 tph basis. Some minor stations would still get just 1 tph.

4 trains per hour from London to Southampton, 2 fast 2 slow. Also a few station (re)openings, I don't know what stations have existed in the past.
Radipole, Talbot Woods, Boscombe, Iford, Somerford, West Totton, and St Mary's (Southampton) would gain stations with cheap modular platforms.

:00 and :30 Weymouth, stops at Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, (New Milton in the 00, Christchurch and Boscombe in the 30) Bournemouth, (Branksome, Parkstone, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Dorchester South and Weymouth on the 00, all to Weymouth on the 30).

:12 and :42 Bournemouth, stops at Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Southampton Airport Parkway, (Swaythling on the 12, St Denys on the 42, those are way too large to not have a London service), St Mary's, Southampton Central, (Millbrook on the 12, Redbridge on the 42), Totton, West Totton, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown and Boscombe in both, (Sway, Hilton Admiral on the 12, Somerford and Iford on the 42), ends at Bournemouth.
2 tph locals from Eastleigh to Hamworthy, with new reversing sidings in each (Hamworthy already has a freight spur to use as a base), connecting off the 12/42 at Eastleigh and getting looped at Southampton Central for the 00/30 to overtake. All stops, only Ashurst on one and Beaulieu Road on the other get skipped (I know they'd lose direct London service but they're so tiny and would keep their journey times by changing at Southampton Central).

:15 and :45 to Salisbury, Woking, (Farnborough and Fleet on the 45), Basingstoke, the 15 is Andover, Salisbury, all to Honiton including reopened Chard Junction, Exeter Central and Exeter St Davids. The 45 all to Salisbury, ends there.

:18 to Portsmouth Harbour via Fareham. Woking, Farnborough, Fleet, Basingstoke, all. Nothing takes the :48 slot on the opposite side of the hour.

On the Portsmouth Direct, a Stoughton station in north Guildford would be opened. Pattern would settle into 2 fast 2 slow.

:06 and :36 to Portsmouth Harbour. Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, Portsmouth and Southsea, Portsmouth Harbour.

:21 and :51 to Portsmouth and Southsea. Woking, Stoughton, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Petersfield, and all stations from Havant in both, (Worplesdon, Liphook and Liss on the 21, Milford, Witley and Rowlands Castle on the 51). The stops are arranged to ensure that journeys between contiguous stops can be made.

2 Woking to Godalming shuttles running behind the 06/36, skipping only Worplesdon.