FANTASY: redesign your own TOC's timetable

[HamworthyGoods]

Remember this is a fantasy thread, and Covid and all of its consequences haven't necessarily happened - I said as such in the opening post, and the changes are really supposed to be against the normal for the 2010s.

Yes I understand that this is a fantasy thread but the there is also the point that a train service needs to serve the current/projected demand not a historical demand from 15 years ago.

In most cases you have addressed that by increasing the semi-fast service frequency to allow the ‘crack express’ to be sped up. However here you have not proposed that, hence the comment about the reduction in service at one of the busiest stations on the route.

One option could maybe to alternate Godalming and Petersfield on the fast services as has been done before so each gets 3tph.

 

[43066]

The solition to that is to have them go over at Wellingborough north, and IIRC that is what happens from the December timetable

That will be a major improvement, as the knock on to the following services is significant, and the three aspect signalling beyond Wellingborough doesn’t help. Admittedly it’s all timetabled, but it’s a little soul destroying to be slowed up when the unit/infrastructure is capable of a far quicker journey.

Ramping the 360s up to 110mph linespeed will hopefully make some difference southbound, if only when following the bloody things. On the ex Nottinghams there’s nothing more depressing than going over the top at 125mph at Leagrave, only to see two yellows in the far distance because the 360 was delayed at Wellingborough and hasn’t left airport. Again. Admittedly the Nottinghams on a good run are often a few minutes ahead of booked by this point, but again that just shows how the units are held back by the timetable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Southeastern:

1: Bin off the Luton-Rainham Thameslink service, replace this with the old semi fast CHX to Gillingham service on the Woolwich line, 4tph Cannon Street via Greenwich, 2tph would be Sidcup rounders, 2tph would start at Gravesend, with peak flow Plumstead terminators to either CHX via Lewisham or CST via Greenwich

2: 6tph on the Bexleyheath line, 2tph Charing Cross to Gravesend, 4tph Cannon Street to Dartford.

3: 2tph Charing X to Gravesend, 2tph, Victoria to Dartford, 2tph Cannon Street rounders via Woolwich

4: 4tph on the Hayes line with 2tph to Victoria and 2tph to Charing Cross

5: Victoria to Orpington would be 4tph, even if 2tph terminated at Beckenham or Bromley

6: Chatham mainline, at least 2tph (an Ashford service maybe) would call at Beckenham Junction, in addition peak services on the mainline would call at Beckenham Junction and Penge East.

Southern/Thameslink:
1: 2tph London Bridge to Coulsdon Town via Sydenham, with 2tph London Bridge to Victoria

2: Thameslink service to take over the Epsom service and extend it to Guildford.

 

[nw1]

Yes I understand that this is a fantasy thread but the there is also the point that a train service needs to serve the current/projected demand not a historical demand from 15 years ago.

In most cases you have addressed that by increasing the semi-fast service frequency to allow the ‘crack express’ to be sped up. However here you have not proposed that, hence the comment about the reduction in service at one of the busiest stations on the route.

One option could maybe to alternate Godalming and Petersfield on the fast services as has been done before so each gets 3tph.

Yeah, fair enough. I guess in "fantasying away Covid" I just hark back to the good old days of 1982-2019...

But seriously, the Godalming/Petersfield skip stop that you suggest sounds a good idea.

You could also have a "crack express" on the Direct (e.g. Guildford, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH) then two tph calling at Godalming AND Petersfield (one also Farncombe) then 1tph all beyond Guildford. It would however mean no restoration of the 2tph Liphook and Liss that used to exist, so how about:

xx45 Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH
xx55 Clapham, Woking then all
xx15 as xx45 but Godalming and not Petersfield
xx25 Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH

Would this work? Would the slower services keep ahead of the fasts? I guess the Clapham stops could be swapped onto the fasts if that helps though that would again mean no "really fast" service.

 

[HS2isgood]

Yeah, fair enough. I guess in "fantasying away Covid" I just hark back to the good old days of 1982-2019...

But seriously, the Godalming/Petersfield skip stop that you suggest sounds a good idea.

You could also have a "crack express" on the Direct (e.g. Guildford, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH) then two tph calling at Godalming AND Petersfield (one also Farncombe) then 1tph all beyond Guildford. It would however mean no restoration of the 2tph Liphook and Liss that used to exist, so how about:

xx45 Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH
xx55 Clapham, Woking then all
xx15 as xx45 but Godalming and not Petersfield
xx25 Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere, Liphook, Liss, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH

Would this work? Would the slower services keep ahead of the fasts? I guess the Clapham stops could be swapped onto the fasts if that helps though that would again mean no "really fast" service.

That's very complicated. I think basic half-hourly patterns are better, that's why I proposed 06 and 36 expresses (Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, Portsmouth and Southsea, Portsmouth Harbour), 21 and 51 stoppers (if Liphook and Liss are to have 2 tph they'd be all after Woking but Worplesdon and Rowlands Castle in one and Milford and Witley in the other). But I don't know if the slows would keep above the following fast. And shuttles from Woking/Guildford to Godalming behind the fasts.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That's very complicated. I think basic half-hourly patterns are better, that's why I proposed 06 and 36 expresses (Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, Portsmouth and Southsea, Portsmouth Harbour), 21 and 51 stoppers (if Liphook and Liss are to have 2 tph they'd be all after Woking but Worplesdon and Rowlands Castle in one and Milford and Witley in the other). But I don't know if the slows would keep above the following fast. And shuttles from Woking/Guildford to Godalming behind the fasts.

Yes but you’re missing the point that post Covid the market at places like Godalming, Farnbrorough and Fleet have recovered significantly where as further out locations such as Petersfield and Southampton Parkway far less so (and this is showing no sign of changing).

Hence why you wouldn’t want to do anything that reduces any of these 3 stations direct 3tph to London if you don’t want to wish away income.

The proposal above maybe complicated but it better serves the demand. People expect to be able to work on their way to/from London these days, changing trains half way through the journey will destroy that if you rely on shuttles.

This pattern of a reduction in demand from places of over an hour out of London compared to places in the 30-60 minute bracket to London is quite widespread.

 

[Intercity110]

I've done a few with London Northwestern railway (using the three letter CRS codes)
from BHM: (Birmingham new street)
xx10 fast to EUS from BHM, via Northampton, calling at BHM, BHI, COV, NMP, MKC, WFJ, and EUS
from CRE (Crewe)
xx10 CRE to EUS fast, alternating between avoiding BNS and NUN hourly, calling at CRE, STA, NUN, MKC, WFJ, and EUS, or CRE STA, BHM, BHI, MKC, and EUS.
xx10 CRE to EUS slow, same stops as above, but at all stations, and via Northampton.
from BLY (Bletchley)
xx10 BLY to WEL, via an electrified Marston vale, calling at all stops along the line. One departure terminates at BLY every two hours
from NMP (Northampton)
xx10 NMP to EUS fast, peak only. calling at NMP, MKC, WFJ, and EUS.

 

[JonathanH]

It is an interesting point that people perceive the ideal timetable to include a fast express service from one end of the line to another, with stoppers providing the service at intermediate stations, even though that doesn't necessarily reflect the demand.

People will always hark back to the days of a train from Waterloo calling solely at Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth, or Guildford and Portsmouth only, but the reality is that that sort of romantic notion of the crack express doesn't serve all passengers well.

 

[Magdalia]

It is an interesting point that people perceive the ideal timetable to include a fast express service from one end of the line to another, with stoppers providing the service at intermediate stations, even though that doesn't necessarily reflect the demand.

People will always hark back to the days of a train from Waterloo calling solely at Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth, or Guildford and Portsmouth only, but the reality is that that sort of romantic notion of the crack express doesn't serve all passengers well.

On the other hand, frequent non-stop trains between London and Cambridge is a relatively recent development, only dating back to about 30 years ago. That's not prompted by romantic notions.

 

[Bartsimho]

Looking at EMR and the MML in it's entirety.

EMR Connect 4tph (This could also justify removing a Thameslink which starts at Bedford and you could start it at Luton). Although if the Old Goods line was actually passenger speeds then it would make everything simpler.

St Pancras-Sheffield 2tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Ilkeston, Alfreton, Sheffield)
St Pancras-Nottingham 1tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Nottingham) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Beeston, Nottingham)

Liverpool Lime Street-Nottingham 2tph IC (Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington Central, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill, Ilkeston Nottingham)

Crewe-Nottingham 1tph Regional (Crewe, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Longport, Stoke-on-Trent, Longton, Uttoxeter, Derby, Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham)
Manchester Piccadilly-Derby 1tph (Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sandbach, Crewe, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Stoke-on-Trent, Longton, Blythe Bridge, Uttoxeter, Tutbury and Hatton, Peartree, Derby)


Leicester-Kettering 1tph (Leicester, Syston, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Corby, Kettering)
Nuneaton-Peterborough 1tph (Nuneaton, Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester, Syston, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough)
Leicester-Birmingham New Street 1tph (Leicester, South Wigston, Narborough, Hinckley, Nuneaton, Coleshill Parkway, Water Orton, Birmingham New Street)
Leicester-Grantham 1tph (Leicester, Syston, Barrow-upon-Soar, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Attenborough, Beeston, Nottingham, Radcliffe, Bingham, Elton and Orston, Bottesford, Grantham)
Leicester-Chesterfield 1tph (Leicester, Syston, Barrow-upon-Soar, Loughborough, Eat Midlands Parkway, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield)

Nottingham-Cleethorpes 1tph (Nottingham, Carlton, Burton Joyce, Lowdham, Thurgarton, Bleasby, Fiskerton, Rolleston, Newark Castle, Collingham, Swinderby, Hykeham, Lincoln, Market Rasen, Barnetby, Grimsby Town, Grimsby Docks, New Clee, Cleethorpes)
Nottingham-Worksop 2tph (Nottingham, Bulwell, Hucknall, Newstead, Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Sutton Parkway, Mansfield, Mansfield Woodhouse, Shirebrook, Langwith-Whaley Thorns, Creswell, Whitwell, Worksop)
Nottingham-Derby 1tph (Nottingham, Beeston, Attenborough, Long Eaton, Spondon, Derby)
Nottingham-Matlock 1tph (Nottingham, Beeston, Attenborough, Long Eaton, Spondon, Derby, Duffield, Belper, Ambergate, Whatstandwell, Cromford, Matlock Bath, Matlock)
Nottingham-Skegness 1tph (Nottingham, Radcliffe, Ancaster, Rauceby, Sleaford, Heckington, Swineshead, Hubberts Bridge, Boston, Thorpe Culvert, Wainfleet, Havenhouse, Skegness)

Birmingham New Street-Sheffield 1tph (Birmingham New Street, Water Orton, Wilencote, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent, Willington, Peartree, Derby, Duffield, Belper, Chesterfield, Dronfield, Sheffield)
Derby-Nuneaton 1tph (Derby, Spondon, Long Eaton, East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough, Barrow-upon-Soar, Syston, Leicester, South Wigston, Narborough, Hinckley, Nuneaton)

Peterborough-Doncaster 1tph (Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Ruskington, Metheringham, Lincoln, Saxilby, Gainsborough Lea Road, Doncaster)

Lincoln-Chesterfield 1tph (Lincoln, Hykeham, Collingham, Newark Castle, Rolleston, Lowdham, Burton Joyce, Carlton, Nottingham, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield)

Sheffield-Cleethorpes 1tph (Sheffield, Woodhouse, Darnall, Kiverton Bridge, Kiverton Park, Shireoaks, Worksop, Retford, Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsey, Brigg, Barnetby, Grimsby Town, Grimsby Docks, New Clee, Cleethorpes)
Sheffield-Peterborough 1tph (Sheffield, Woodhouse, Darnall, Kiverton Bridge, Kiverton Park, Shireoaks, Worksop, Retford, Gainsborough Lea Road, Saxilby, Lincoln, Metheringham, Ruskington, Sleaford, Spalding, Peterborough)

Of course there is area crossover with Northern, West Midlands and Greater Anglia. And this is a pretty beefy regional service pattern

 

[Gwr12345]

Looking at the Northeast's Northern service I would create it as such.
1tph Bishop Auckland to Saltburn stopping at all stations,
1 tph Darlington to Saltburn stopping at Eaglescliffe, Thornaby, Middlesbrough, Redcar Central and Saltburn.
Attached to this train dividing at Thornaby I would have a train to Hartlepool calling at Stockton, Billingham and Hartlepool.
1/2 tph from Darlington to Stanhope combining to give 3 tp2h on the Bishop Line.
1/2 tph from Whitby to Hexham connecting physically with another set on the Darlington to Saltburn express, providing a direct connection from Darlington to Whitby. This would stop at all stations on the Whitby branch but only have limited stops on the Durham Coast line.
I would probably keep the Durham Coast with its new service of 3 tp2h, but combining with the Whitby 'express' to form a half hourly service at certain stations.
2 tph Newcastle to Hexham calling at all stops of which 1 tph would continue to Carlisle.
1 tph fast to Carlisle stopping at major stations only.
I don't know enough about the Northumberland line to comment.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I’m sure something can be done with Southern’s Mole Valley lines. I’m not convinced sending a Dorking to Victoria passenger in a circuit through Balham, as lovely as it is, is the most efficient route for that line. Especially with SWR’s faster Waterloo service. I wonder if sending Thameslink down to Horsham by breaking the Sutton Loop and replacing the Southern service completely might be better. Allowing space for more services via Crystal Palace and more WLL services

 

[JonathanH]

Liverpool Lime Street-Nottingham 2tph IC (Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington Central, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Alfreton, Langley Mill, Ilkeston Nottingham)

Why is this stopping at Langley Mill and Ilkeston, yet you are describing it as an Intercity service?

Lincoln-Chesterfield 1tph (Lincoln, Hykeham, Collingham, Newark Castle, Rolleston, Lowdham, Burton Joyce, Carlton, Nottingham, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield)

Leicester-Chesterfield 1tph (Leicester, Syston, Barrow-upon-Soar, Loughborough, Eat Midlands Parkway, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield)

1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Ilkeston, Alfreton, Sheffield)

5tph at Ilkeston, plus Northern?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Redisigning Northern's timetable should be easy - revert to that operating before April 2016.

 

[43096]

Looking at EMR and the MML in it's entirety.

EMR Connect 4tph (This could also justify removing a Thameslink which starts at Bedford and you could start it at Luton). Although if the Old Goods line was actually passenger speeds then it would make everything simpler.

St Pancras-Sheffield 2tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Ilkeston, Alfreton, Sheffield)
St Pancras-Nottingham 1tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Nottingham) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Beeston, Nottingham)

So Chesterfield has no London service and Market Harborough has no service at all?

 

[Bald Rick]

EMR Connect 4tph (This could also justify removing a Thameslink which starts at Bedford and you could start it at Luton). Although if the Old Goods line was actually passenger speeds then it would make everything simpler.

St Pancras-Sheffield 2tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Ilkeston, Alfreton, Sheffield)
St Pancras-Nottingham 1tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Nottingham) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Beeston, Nottingham)

This is very much fantasy - as it wont fit on the fast lines, even if theres nothing else on them.

 

[A S Leib]

Looking at the Northeast's Northern service I would create it as such.
1tph Bishop Auckland to Saltburn stopping at all stations,
1 tph Darlington to Saltburn stopping at Eaglescliffe, Thornaby, Middlesbrough, Redcar Central and Saltburn.
Attached to this train dividing at Thornaby I would have a train to Hartlepool calling at Stockton, Billingham and Hartlepool.
1/2 tph from Darlington to Stanhope combining to give 3 tp2h on the Bishop Line.
1/2 tph from Whitby to Hexham connecting physically with another set on the Darlington to Saltburn express, providing a direct connection from Darlington to Whitby. This would stop at all stations on the Whitby branch but only have limited stops on the Durham Coast line.
I would probably keep the Durham Coast with its new service of 3 tp2h, but combining with the Whitby 'express' to form a half hourly service at certain stations.
2 tph Newcastle to Hexham calling at all stops of which 1 tph would continue to Carlisle.
1 tph fast to Carlisle stopping at major stations only.
I don't know enough about the Northumberland line to comment.

I know that you've only included lines which are open (and Weardale, where at least there's still the track and the heritage railway); I'd mostly copy that but extend the Darlington terminator to Ashington (so Newcastle and Durham get a direct Redcar and Saltburn service) and have the other Ashington one continue to Richmond (I know the former station's well-used and the original line was just under ten miles to Darlington) or just Darlington, so Chester-le-Street should hopefully have a regular, reliable service even if it means getting rid of TPE calls (and two local tph between Darlington and Newcastle should hopefully mean no more 25+ minute gaps at Durham for Newcastle / Darlington trains).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Redisigning Northern's timetable should be easy - revert to that operating before April 2016.

Castlefield started going wrong with the 1998 timetable, to be honest...

 

[Peterthegreat]

Castlefield started going wrong with the 1998 timetable, to be honest...

True. However I was referring more to the east.

 

[CyrusWuff]

This is very much fantasy - as it wont fit on the fast lines, even if theres nothing else on them.

Also leaves Market Harborough totally unserved and robs Chesterfield of direct London services.

 

[Krokodil]

Wales & Borders (excluding the Cardiff Valley Lines which will be going to 4tph anyway). I'll focus on North and Mid Wales.

A takt standard interval timetable, with trains converging on Chester and Shrewsbury every half hour, symmetry minutes at xx:20 [*] and xx:50 [#]. You may ask why not xx:00 and xx:30, the reason is simply to connect with the existing services of neighbouring operators, if you were recasting the whole country you would use xx:00 and xx:30.

*1tp2h HHD-BHI (as present, but a consistent pattern HHD-BNG-LLJ-CWB-RHL-CTR-..., probably join forces with Chiltern to run through to MYB)
*1tp2h HHD-CDF (extending some trains to meet ferries at FGH via Swansea District Line)
#1tph MIA-BNG (all stops between WBQ and BNG)
*1tph LIV-LLD stopper
*1tph LLD-HHD stopper
#1tph CTR-CRE
#1tph CTR-SHR stopper (you could merge these last two into one through train if Chester's through platforms had scissors crossovers again)
*1tph SHR-CRE stopper (this just happens to match with the CRE-CTR train so could be combined into the above through train
#1tph MAN-CMN (and beyond)
*1tp2h AYW/PWL-BHI (probably join forces with Chiltern to run through to MYB)
*1tp2h AYW/PWL-CDF (there is logic behind this, I'm not getting carried away with the crayons: you want a train to fill the gaps in between Shrewsbury and Cardiff to provide a half-hourly service, and those gaps happen to be at Shrewsbury at the same time as the second Cambrian train so why not combine the two to save a platform and impress the politicians to boot?)

Sundays would follow the same timings as weekdays, with some thinning to reflect demand, rather than the current setup where the Sunday timetable is a relic from FNW days and completely different to weekdays.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

St Pancras-Sheffield 2tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Ilkeston, Alfreton, Sheffield)
St Pancras-Nottingham 1tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Nottingham) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Beeston, Nottingham)

No service at Market Harborough!?

 

[43066]

St Pancras-Sheffield 2tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Ilkeston, Alfreton, Sheffield)
St Pancras-Nottingham 1tph Fast (St Pancras, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Nottingham) 1tph Stopper (St Pancras, Bedford, Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, EMP, Beeston, Nottingham)

This would completely knacker all the good work that has been put into speeding up the EMR end to end intercity offering (albeit at the expense of some connectivity for the intermediate stations).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2023 ==

No service at Market Harborough!?

Good point!

 

[A S Leib]

This would completely knacker all the good work that has been put into speeding up the EMR end to end intercity offering (albeit at the expense of some connectivity for the intermediate stations).

And the MML's still slower than the ECML as it is (118 minutes for 265 km for St. Pancras – Sheffield; 97 minutes for 251 km for King's Cross – Doncaster).

 

[43066]

And the MML's still slower than the ECML as it is (118 minutes for 265 km for St. Pancras – Sheffield; 97 minutes for 251 km for King's Cross – Doncaster).

All the more reason not to slow it further. 1:30 to Notts and 2:00 dead to Sheffield are competitive with the ECML/WCML options, with either a change of trains or a drive, as applicable.

 

[miklcct]

I'll simplify the Thameslink timetable as follows, using a 24 tph peak pattern in groups of 4 tph instead of 2 as the current timetable:

• 16 tph from the line through West Hampstead, among which:
  • 8 tph on the fast line, among which:
    • 4 tph Bedford - Brighton, every 15 minutes, all stations to St Albans, West Hampstead, London, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, then one run semi fast and another run slow to fit Gatwick Express in
    • 2 tph (peak only) to Caterham, non stop between St Alban's and London and Norwood Junction
    • 2 tph (peak only) to Tattenham Corner, non stop between St Alban's and London and Norwood Junction
  • 8 tph on the slow line, among which:
    • 4 tph St Alban's - Sutton loop services, 2 in each direction
    • 4 tph Luton - Orpington every 15 minutes, with 2 continuing to Sevenoaks
• 8 tph through Finsbury Park, among which:
  • 4 tph (2 off-peak) Cambridge - Three Bridges
  • 4 tph (2 off-peak) Peterborough - Three Bridges, 2 continuing to Horsham
  • During peak hours, all 4 Cambridge trains run fast between Finsbury Park and Stevenage at an even 15-minute interval, and keep the times to Cambridge as even as possible under the constraint of the fast trains
  • During peak hours, all 4 Peterborough trains run fast from Finsbury Park, 2 of them replacing the GN fast, with the other 2 calling at Finsbury Park and switching the fast line, returning to the slow line just before Potters Bar, no longer calling at Alexandra Palace, then Hatfield and all stations from Welwyn Garden City to Peterborough.
  • Off-peak Thameslink service pattern doesn't change with the possible exception of reorganising the Cambridge services with the GN slow mentioned below north of Hitchin to provide a more even service.

The supplementary changes required by above include:

• The Southern Caterham / Tattenham Corner trains will have to run slow between East Croydon and London Bridge, with the Tattenham Corner branch portion starting at Coulsdon Town during peak hours, as the fast service will become Thameslink. This is to relieve overcrowding.
• Southeastern has to run the 2 tph Cannon Street loop via Sidcup and Woolwich all day, and extending 2 tph from Dartford to Rainham to replace the Luton - Rainham Thameslink service, restoring a lost connection in South East London
• The Thameslink service at East Grinstead will not be replaced. Instead, the Uckfield to London Bridge service should call at intermediate stations between Oxted and East Grinstead during peak hours.
• The Great Northern stopping service from Kings Cross will run to Peterborough during peak, and Cambridge off-peak, in order to provide an even service to Cambridge during peak.

And, if possible, I suggest the following changes to complement the above:

• The Caterham / Tattenham Corner Southern service should run slow all day, restoring the link between Sydenham and East Croydon
• Both the Welwyn and Hertford North GN inner suburban should get 4 tph off-peak, with the pattern follows:
  • 6 tph from Moorgate running every 10 minutes on the Northern City Line, in the order of to Welwyn, to Stevenage via Hertford North and to Hertford North every 30 minutes.
  • Upon arriving Finsbury Park, the train to Stevenage will stay on slow 2, skipping Harringay and Hornsey, while the other trains will remain on slow 1, creating a 20-minute gap between the Welwyn train and the Hertford train.
  • The Stevenage train saves time by skipping the two stations not having a platform on the slow 2, making an even 15-minute headway north of Alexandra Palace
  • The Kings Cross - Cambridge slow will arrive Finsbury Park 15 minutes after the Welwyn train and 5 minutes before the Hertford train on the slow 1 and call at all stations until Stevenage, creating an even 15-minute headway with the train from Moorgate to Welwyn.
• During peak, the slow lines south of Potters Bar will be exclusively used by Moorgate services, where Welwyn and Hertford trains should alternate like a metro service with fixed calling pattern with only Welwyn trains calling at Harringay and Hornsey (i.e. Hertford trains call at there off-peak but not peak).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The Thameslink service at East Grinstead will not be replaced. Instead, the Uckfield to London Bridge service should call at intermediate stations between Oxted and East Grinstead during peak hours.

You have obviously not ridden on the Uckfield services in the peaks. They are full so there would be no point stopping them at intermediate stations.

Also to stop them intermediately would break the turnarounds at London Bridge with no other diesel services to inter-work them with.

Back to the drawing board for that part of the plan I’m afraid.

 

[30907]

1. Your Tats/Cats have to be 8 car not 12 - have you factored that in?

2. Is there really demand for 8tph offpeak North of WHP on the slows, or 16tph altogether in the peaks? Are the 2(?4) extra TPH over Digswell viaduct feasible, and does Stevenage need 8 fast tph in the peaks?

3. I broadly agree with simplifying the inners, subject to (2), and I am happy to lose the Rainhams provided there is a semi-fast alternative.

4. I am much less convinced about the need for 4tph on the long-distance pairings of origin and destination - I am not convinced that the good folk of Bedford etc travel on a turn-up-and-go basis to Brighton. I would retain CBG-BTN and turn alternate Bedfords at TBG (and possibly run via Redhill).

5. The Cambridge slows should not serve the GN inner stations - far better have 8tph out of Moorgate, and switch the slows to TL.

 

[Minstral25]

I'll simplify the Thameslink timetable as follows, using a 24 tph peak pattern in groups of 4 tph instead of 2 as the current timetable:

• 16 tph from the line through West Hampstead, among which:
  • 8 tph on the fast line, among which:
    • 4 tph Bedford - Brighton, every 15 minutes, all stations to St Albans, West Hampstead, London, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, then one run semi fast and another run slow to fit Gatwick Express in
    • 2 tph (peak only) to Caterham, non stop between St Alban's and London and Norwood Junction
    • 2 tph (peak only) to Tattenham Corner, non stop between St Alban's and London and Norwood Junction
  • 8 tph on the slow line, among which:
    • 4 tph St Alban's - Sutton loop services, 2 in each direction
    • 4 tph Luton - Orpington every 15 minutes, with 2 continuing to Sevenoaks
• 8 tph through Finsbury Park, among which:
  • 4 tph (2 off-peak) Cambridge - Three Bridges
  • 4 tph (2 off-peak) Peterborough - Three Bridges, 2 continuing to Horsham
  • During peak hours, all 4 Cambridge trains run fast between Finsbury Park and Stevenage at an even 15-minute interval, and keep the times to Cambridge as even as possible under the constraint of the fast trains
  • During peak hours, all 4 Peterborough trains run fast from Finsbury Park, 2 of them replacing the GN fast, with the other 2 calling at Finsbury Park and switching the fast line, returning to the slow line just before Potters Bar, no longer calling at Alexandra Palace, then Hatfield and all stations from Welwyn Garden City to Peterborough.
  • Off-peak Thameslink service pattern doesn't change with the possible exception of reorganising the Cambridge services with the GN slow mentioned below north of Hitchin to provide a more even service.

The supplementary changes required by above include:

• The Southern Caterham / Tattenham Corner trains will have to run slow between East Croydon and London Bridge, with the Tattenham Corner branch portion starting at Coulsdon Town during peak hours, as the fast service will become Thameslink. This is to relieve overcrowding.
• Southeastern has to run the 2 tph Cannon Street loop via Sidcup and Woolwich all day, and extending 2 tph from Dartford to Rainham to replace the Luton - Rainham Thameslink service, restoring a lost connection in South East London
• The Thameslink service at East Grinstead will not be replaced. Instead, the Uckfield to London Bridge service should call at intermediate stations between Oxted and East Grinstead during peak hours.
• The Great Northern stopping service from Kings Cross will run to Peterborough during peak, and Cambridge off-peak, in order to provide an even service to Cambridge during peak.

And, if possible, I suggest the following changes to complement the above:

• The Caterham / Tattenham Corner Southern service should run slow all day, restoring the link between Sydenham and East Croydon
• Both the Welwyn and Hertford North GN inner suburban should get 4 tph off-peak, with the pattern follows:
  • 6 tph from Moorgate running every 10 minutes on the Northern City Line, in the order of to Welwyn, to Stevenage via Hertford North and to Hertford North every 30 minutes.
  • Upon arriving Finsbury Park, the train to Stevenage will stay on slow 2, skipping Harringay and Hornsey, while the other trains will remain on slow 1, creating a 20-minute gap between the Welwyn train and the Hertford train.
  • The Stevenage train saves time by skipping the two stations not having a platform on the slow 2, making an even 15-minute headway north of Alexandra Palace
  • The Kings Cross - Cambridge slow will arrive Finsbury Park 15 minutes after the Welwyn train and 5 minutes before the Hertford train on the slow 1 and call at all stations until Stevenage, creating an even 15-minute headway with the train from Moorgate to Welwyn.
• During peak, the slow lines south of Potters Bar will be exclusively used by Moorgate services, where Welwyn and Hertford trains should alternate like a metro service with fixed calling pattern with only Welwyn trains calling at Harringay and Hornsey (i.e. Hertford trains call at there off-peak but not peak).

Although you seem to have completely forgotten us have to assume you plan the Three Bridges Thameslink services are via Redhill, so from the Redhill route - no thank you. The Peterborough's are awful & unreliable so don't take our Bedford's away for Cambridges which I suspect are just as bad.

 

[moonarrow458]

For the Chiltern Mainline

(xx00) Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill:
High Wcombe, Banbury, Leamington Spa, warwick Parkway, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street, Birmingham Snow Hill
*peak time extensions to/from Kidderminster/Stourbridge for stabling*

(xx05) Marylebone to Oxford
Haddenham &Thame Prkway, Bicester Village, Oxford Parkway, Oxford

(xx09) Marylebone to Banbury
Denham, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield,
High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Haddenham & Thame Parkway,
Bicester North, Kings Sutton (1tp2h), Banbury
(xxxx) Oxford to Stratford upon Avon (tp2h) connects out off (xx00 ex MYB) calling at Tackley, Upper Heyford, Kings Sutton, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Hatton, Claverdon (certain trains only), Bearley (certain trains only), Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway &Stratford upon Avon

(xx12) Marylebone to High Wycombe stopper operated by fast acceleration DMUs
Wembley Stadium, Sudbury & Harrow Road, Sudbury Hill Harrow, Northolt Park, West Ruislip, Gerrards Cross, Seer Green & Jordans, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe

(xxxx) 1tph West Ealing to Gerrards Cross (interworks with 1tph West Ealing to Greenford, pathed behind xx12 ex MYB from South Ruislip)
Drayton Green, Castle Bar Park, South Greenford, South Ruislip, West Ruislip, Denham, Denham Golf Club, Gerrards Cross

(xx27) Marylebone to Aylesbury Vale Prkway
Harrow on the hill, Rickmansworth, Chorleywood, Chalfont, Amersham & all stations to AVP

(xx32) Marylebone to Oxford
High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Bicester Village, Islip (1tp2h) Oxford Parkway, Oxford

(xx35) Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street
Beaconsfield, Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Dorridge, Solihull, Birmingham Moor Street

(xx38) Marylebone to MKC via HW)
Sudbury Hill Harrow, West Ruislip, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Saunderton, Princes Risborough, Monks Risborough, Little Kimble, Aylesbury, Quainton Road, Winslow, Blehchley, Milton Keynes Central

(xx42) Marylebone to Gerrards Cross
Wembley Stadium, Sudbury & Harrow Road, Northolt Park, South Ruislip, Denham, Gerrards Cross

(xx57) Marylebone to Aylesbury
Harrow on the Hill, Rickmansworth, chorleywood, chalfont, Amersham, then all stations to Aylesbury

1tp2h, Nuneaton to Bristol Temple Meads,
Bermuda Park, Bedworth, Coventry Arena, Coventry, Kenilworth, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Radley, Swindon, Chippenham, Bath Spa, Keynsham, Bristol Temple Meads

Standard Off peak Pattern with ammended pattern during the Peaks