FA Cup Final- Virgin Trains Press Release

[Solent&Wessex]

I know passengers can get to London by travelling to Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield should they can't to use the train, but I wonder how much strengthening the other operators are doing. EMT can't cope normally so I doubt it would want the extras. May a 222 from Liverpool - St Pancras

Whilst the route across the Pennines to Leeds and then down to London may be open, there are 2 significant flaws to this plan. Firstly there is already engineering work at Stalybridge meaning a reduced TPE service across the hills. Even with the normal 3tph on a Sunday capacity is at a premium with most trains full to bursting with folk often left behind. When running as 2tph it is even worse. Journey times are lengthened and some services run as 6 cars, but that does mean there is no spare stock to strengthen any more train. Put simply, there isn't the capacity to cope with any more people. Secondly, tickets from Liverpool to London are not valid via Leeds - and I don't actually see why they should be relaxed for this weekend. The simplest solution would be for somebody to run a few charter trains via whatever routes are open. Charter stock is more flexible and has the added advantage of not clogging up already overcrowded trains elsewhere.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would not suggest that tickets are (or should be) valid on another route, personally I would split at Chesterfield, didn't realise north Tpe was getting done up as well.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Big works at Stalybridge. Major rebuilding of the station and track layout, combined with a full resignalling. It is closed pretty much every Sunday all year except during the Olympics.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yeah i think best option is to grab a load of charter stock get some 67s and 47s and run specials via as kwvr45 says which route is open. Is via St helens viable?

 

[jopsuk]

One thing that they and other articles omit is what date Network Rail first made the engineering work public. It's all very well saying it was planned 18-24 months in advance but when was it confirmed and when was it made public? If the answer to either of those questions is under 11 months ago then it was after the FA had publicly confirmed the 2012 FA cup final date.

A lot of events seem to be planned between when Network Rail decide to do engineering work and when it is made public.

They say they made the FA aware wheilst the FA were still deciding the date. The date they actually tell the public is not so important.

 

[D1009]

There are private charter trains being planned to operate with Liverpool FC’s Official Travel Partner, Thomas Cook Sport. Supporters are asked to contact Thomas Cook Sport directly or through the Liverpool FC website to gain further details. (www.thomascooksport.com or by phone on 0844 800 9900 Monday-Friday 09.00-17.30). Other charter trains with other promoters may also be arranged.

The website quoted makes no mention of charter trains, so it looks as though the railway has given up on it. Bank holiday weekends are very busy for engineering work, so it would have been very difficult to run anything after the match.

 

[ushawk]

Yeah i think best option is to grab a load of charter stock get some 67s and 47s and run specials via as kwvr45 says which route is open. Is via St helens viable?

Looks like it, could run via Manchester Piccadilly or with a reversal at Chester - would have thought the club will have to promote these well though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The website quoted makes no mention of charter trains, so it looks as though the railway has given up on it. Bank holiday weekends are very busy for engineering work, so it would have been very difficult to run anything after the match.

Thats been removed then as it was up there the other day - possibly already sold out

 

[northwichcat]

They say they made the FA aware wheilst the FA were still deciding the date. The date they actually tell the public is not so important.

It's a very one sided argument that Network Rail have put across that doesn't contain any facts. If they said we wrote on the FA on such a date and the FA wrote back acknowledging the correspondence then they've have more of a case.

 

[jopsuk]

The FA have been notably silent on the matter; in official terms it has been entirely Virgin and Network Rail that have said anything.

 

[HSTEd]

Even BR would have struggled to meet this kind of "one off" (e.g. ensuring that they had staff who were trained on HSTs and also trained on the line to Liverpool).

Then again, BR had the benefit of yards of unused stock that they could call on for "Summer Holiday" trains (and Foot-Exs etc). Nowadays stock is so intensively used on our busy railway that there aren't yards full of unused trains that can be "found" for special occasion services like these.

I don't think you can blame this on privatisation/fragmentation.

Can't you put a driver who signs the route and a driver that signs the stock into the cab together to allow you to do things like that? Or am I imaginging this?
(Ie. a HST driver from wherever is convenient and a second driver who knows the relevent portions of the route?)

I would argue that the lack of unused stock lying around for things like this is a result of privatisation and its emphasis on maximum returns and the resultant destruction of the old fashioned railway ethos that survived from the Big Four through nationalisation, although I suppose you could say that was melting away by the 80s anyway.

And then fragmentation means that any unused stock has to be available to the right TOC, when in BR days any unused stock anywhere that could be moved to the relevant positions by ECS moves in advance could be used.

 

[ainsworth74]

Can't you put a driver who signs the route and a driver that signs the stock into the cab together to allow you to do things like that? Or am I imaginging this?

You can but you have to find a TOC (or FOC) with a driver that signs the route to be traveled and is willing to spare them and you have to be willing to pay the price that they're charging for providing such a service.

 

[andykn]

The FA have been notably silent on the matter; in official terms it has been entirely Virgin and Network Rail that have said anything.

I think the FA would have been in trouble anyway as I don't think there would have been much in the way of trains for the Liverpool fans to get back even if there had been no engineering works.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Would it be possible to divert via MKC and Bedford, turning at Wakefield and Leeds down via Stalybridge, Manchester and Warrington? There's also a possibility to start from St Pancras International and head up Nottingham way before taking the route the 222s did for the Grand National?

 

[Firestarter]

Other operators should step in. I noticed on Saturday a Meridian tearing through the Hope Valley. Turns out it was to accommodate Aintree visitors. EMT could run spare trains from St Pancras to Liverpool via Chesterfield, Dore Curve and through Manchester. They used to do this route to Manchester during major West Coast works.

How long would the travel time be?

 

[Failed Unit]

How long would the travel time be?

About 4h30.

Adding up the 2 routes times.

Still don't know why people are so down on the FA, even if network rail told them last year you can't plan the FA cup on the assumption that merseyside club make it to the final and thier rail options are reduced.

Arsenal did Cardiff with multiple charters when the Severn tunnel was closed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A lenghty missive from network rail, courtesy of The Railway Eye

As far as I can see from the planner sites, the WCML is open at Bletchley until after midnight, with LM and VT able to run to Birmingham/Wolverhampton (VT have a 2143 ex Euston arr Wolverhampton at 2350).
The Crewe-Chester line is also open after midnight (2358 Crewe-Chester arr 0024).

So there would appear to be no reason why VT could not run long Voyagers Euston-Chester until at least 2200 from Euston.
There is no Merseyrail connection from Chester after 2300 but has anyone asked them (and no doubt ATW) to help?
It's also not clear why late Voyagers could not run Euston-Manchester-Liverpool.

Trouble is (I can hear VT saying) is that all the Voyagers and crews are needed at Euston/Nuneaton for the Sunday Chiltern shuttles.

Anyway, I can't help feeling more could have been done as a one-off without impacting the possessions.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As far as I can see from the planner sites, the WCML is open at Bletchley until after midnight, with LM and VT able to run to Birmingham/Wolverhampton (VT have a 2143 ex Euston arr Wolverhampton at 2350).
The Crewe-Chester line is also open after midnight (2358 Crewe-Chester arr 0024).

So there would appear to be no reason why VT could not run long Voyagers Euston-Chester until at least 2200 from Euston.
There is no Merseyrail connection from Chester after 2300 but has anyone asked them (and no doubt ATW) to help?
It's also not clear why late Voyagers could not run Euston-Manchester-Liverpool.

Trouble is (I can hear VT saying) is that all the Voyagers and crews are needed at Euston/Nuneaton for the Sunday Chiltern shuttles.

Anyway, I can't help feeling more could have been done as a one-off without impacting the possessions.

Or just use a Pendo to Manchester then drag it to Liverpool from there with a 57 - of which there often appears to be one or two at Longsight or Edge Hill anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

I think there are a couple of options that other operators could use.

EMT doing some Liverpool-London via Sheffield Meridians (presumably terminating services from Norwich at Sheffield for pathing reasons.)

LM could run a couple of doubled up 350s southbound between 08:00 and 11:00 from Hartford to London, even calling at Wembley Central connecting with their replacement bus service between Liverpool and Crewe.

The Northern services appear to be running between Lime Street and Bank Quay. Extend and strengthen some of the Bank Quay arrivals before 11am to Crewe via Greenbank and the Middlewich branch line. Although a slight issue in using the freight branch is a few crews would need to learn the route prior to the 5th May, which Northern might do when hell freezes over.

 

[tbtc]

Can't you put a driver who signs the route and a driver that signs the stock into the cab together to allow you to do things like that? Or am I imaginging this?
(Ie. a HST driver from wherever is convenient and a second driver who knows the relevent portions of the route?)

I'm sure that you could, but this makes one return journey from Liverpool to London even more complicated/ expensive.

Ingenious though some of the suggestions on this thread are, they seem like a lot of bother to go to (additional route learning, chopping other services to free up paths, loco hauled diversions etc) for one train down from Liverpool to London in the daytime and one train back after eight at night.

It's like coming up with some clever Wallace & Gromit contraption to crack a nut...

I would argue that the lack of unused stock lying around for things like this is a result of privatisation and its emphasis on maximum returns and the resultant destruction of the old fashioned railway ethos that survived from the Big Four through nationalisation, although I suppose you could say that was melting away by the 80s anyway

BR were dealing with stable/ falling demand for services, so had spare stock. Apart from slam door units (loco hauled coaches, DMU and EMU) very little has been withdrawn since privatisation due to increasing demand (we don't have the luxury of being able to pension-off stock, hence no Pacer withdrawals despite hundreds of new DMUs since privatisation).

 

[calc7]

It's like coming up with some clever Wallace & Gromit contraption to crack a nut...

Coupled with the fact that these people will be paying at most £75 for a ticket, of which Virgin will be lucky to get half. Not sure it's in their commercial interests.

 

[Greenback]

BR were dealing with stable/ falling demand for services, so had spare stock. Apart from slam door units (loco hauled coaches, DMU and EMU) very little has been withdrawn since privatisation due to increasing demand (we don't have the luxury of being able to pension-off stock, hence no Pacer withdrawals despite hundreds of new DMUs since privatisation).

Indeed. Rather than the being the result of privatisation, the lack of spare stock actually emanates from the modernisation that began in the 1980's. The government of the day only agreed to fund the second generation units on the proviso that BR replaced more stock with less.

I remember the carriage sidings in Swansea being filled with coaches and units up to the mid 1980s. By the start of the 90s there was hardly anything there.

As much as privatisation has caused problems, I don;t thin this is one of them.

 

[andykn]

About 4h30.

Adding up the 2 routes times.

Still don't know why people are so down on the FA, even if network rail told them last year you can't plan the FA cup on the assumption that merseyside club make it to the final and thier rail options are reduced.

Arsenal did Cardiff with multiple charters when the Severn tunnel was closed.

But surely, even without engineering works, any Northern club would have quite limited rail options with the match finishing in the evening on a Saturday.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. Rather than the being the result of privatisation, the lack of spare stock actually emanates from the modernisation that began in the 1980's. The government of the day only agreed to fund the second generation units on the proviso that BR replaced more stock with less.

I remember the carriage sidings in Swansea being filled with coaches and units up to the mid 1980s. By the start of the 90s there was hardly anything there.

As much as privatisation has caused problems, I don;t thin this is one of them.

Good assessment. By the late 80s the only spare long distance stock knocking around was for the IC charter unit. Post privatisation the charter business has done pretty well, particularly for the enthusiast market - I bet there's at least half a dozen out on May 5th.

Without wishing to alienate a fair proportion of the forum users, does it follow that the inability to lay on charters for Liverpool fans is because the stock is all tied up on long since booked enthusiast specials?

 

[londonbridge]

A lenghty missive from network rail, courtesy of The Railway Eye

It WASN'T the FA who wanted a 5.15 kick off,it was the tv companies,who insisted on a 5.15 k/o as part of the negotiations for the current tv deal.

Meanwhile Liverpool are apparently complaining to Network Rail and Virgin Trains and telling them the engineering work must be postponed.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Will they get their players to warm up wearing silly t-shirts again?

 

[Deerfold]

It WASN'T the FA who wanted a 5.15 kick off,it was the tv companies,who insisted on a 5.15 k/o as part of the negotiations for the current tv deal.

Meanwhile Liverpool are apparently complaining to Network Rail and Virgin Trains and telling them the engineering work must be postponed.

I take it they won't be complaining about/to the TV companies?

 

[Clip]

Will they get their players to warm up wearing silly t-shirts again?

Or nice white suits.

 

[Failed Unit]

But surely, even without engineering works, any Northern club would have quite limited rail options with the match finishing in the evening on a Saturday.

Good point, it will be about 2030 before you get back to a London terminal after getting out the station so it would be a struggle to get very far. But you would plan for extra time and penalties if booking trains so that is closer to at least 2100

Staying over isnt going to be as cheap with the bank holiday and then more engineering on Sunday.

However when Newcastle were there with the 3pm KO the stay in London after the game and the last train were still big problems.

 

[YorkshireRider]

It WASN'T the FA who wanted a 5.15 kick off,it was the tv companies,who insisted on a 5.15 k/o as part of the negotiations for the current tv deal.

Meanwhile Liverpool are apparently complaining to Network Rail and Virgin Trains and telling them the engineering work must be postponed.

That must be something to do with the global audience then, i dont see how you would get a greater domestic audience playing at 5:15 than 3:00. I can see why they would want a 5:15 rather than a 12:30 however.
I was working the day of the semi final and even though the train started at Leeds there were a lot of fans onboard i was chatting to at the buffet who hated the early start. Disruption due to signal failure also meant it was touch and go to make the kick off. I get the feeling most fans would prefer the late to the early kick off.
To be fair to Liverpool i think they have wrote to Virgin and Network Rail and asked them to re-consider rather than complained to them. I dont think they will get very far.

 

[ushawk]

It WASN'T the FA who wanted a 5.15 kick off,it was the tv companies,who insisted on a 5.15 k/o as part of the negotiations for the current tv deal.

Meanwhile Liverpool are apparently complaining to Network Rail and Virgin Trains and telling them the engineering work must be postponed.

Isnt it too late now ? I mean some people will now already have advance tickets and/or hotels booked. Liverpool getting the work moved (again) would surely now cause even more problems ?