Expired Railcards

[wokspotter]

There are numerous threads relating to people travelling with expired railcards, who had forgotten to check the expiry date recently.
I was trying to think of something in a similar vein and although not rail related, wondered if there were any stats showing how many people arrive for flights at airports with expired passports?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There are numerous threads relating to people travelling with expired railcards, who had forgotten to check the expiry date recently.
I was trying to think of something in a similar vein and although not rail related, wondered if there were any stats showing how many people arrive for flights at airports with expired passports?

I suspect the proportion is lower, because an expired passport will stop you travelling, so you are more likely to check.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I suspect the proportion is lower, because an expired passport will stop you travelling, so you are more likely to check.

Passports don't even need to be 'expired' when travelling to/from certain destinations. Think I'm right in saying that for travel to the EU.and Schengen area, UK passports must be less than 10 years old on the day of arrival and valid for at least three months after the intended departure date. And other worldwide destinations now require at least six months' validity beyond the arrival date.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are numerous threads relating to people travelling with expired railcards, who had forgotten to check the expiry date recently.
I was trying to think of something in a similar vein and although not rail related, wondered if there were any stats showing how many people arrive for flights at airports with expired passports?

They only expire once every ten years and half the time you need to enter the details and expiry date before you get to the airport. I'd wager it doesn’t happen often.

 

[kristiang85]

I think with passports there is an element of data entry involved with going abroad (flights, visas/visa waivers, tour bookings, sometimes even accommodation, etc), which will surely flag that your passport is invalid or you become aware that the date is coming up.

All the railway needs to do is add a box asking you to input your railcard expiry date (if you select one) upon purchase online or on the TVM, and all the 'honest mistakes' will be taken care of before the issue. Then anybody caught has absolutely no excuse.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

All the railway needs to do is add a box asking you to input your railcard expiry date (if you select one) upon purchase online or on the TVM, and all the 'honest mistakes' will be taken care of before the issue. Then anybody caught has absolutely no excuse.

The problem with this, of course, is that it means you need to have a Railcard at the point you buy the ticket (although you could lie about the expiry date unless there was some validation).

The consensus here is that this would be a Bad Thing in that it would mean - if you're buying an advance ticket for your next journey in two months time - that you have used up two months of validity without travelling. A counter to this is that when Railcards were invented, the expectation was that you would show your card on purchase. But this in turn can be countered by pointing out that the norm when Railcards were invented was to buy a walk-up ticket immediately before travel.

Like a lot of things on the railway, we find that we are trying to use an analogue process in a digital age. For the moment, the solution seems to be to continue with the existing process and accept the greater risk of fare dodging/ conflict between revenue protection and passengers. But is this a stable way forward, or will something have to give one way or the other?

 

[WirralLine]

To be fair, the number of people who genuinely dont realise a railcard has expired would be drastically reduced if they were checked more during ticket inspections.

However I understand why they are not checked more often. I personally dont ask for them (except the high value ones and the highly abused JCP card) because its such a ballache to do so. Checking tickets has become a tedious task of waiting for people to navigate slow apps in areas with little to no mobile signal to find their tickets - especially the painfully slow Trainpal and Trip.com apps. Then I ask for a Railcard and waste another 2 minutes of my life waiting for them to find it/download it while people down the front are getting a free ride as I havnt managed to get to them.

 

[DaveB10780]

I think with passports there is an element of data entry involved with going abroad (flights, visas/visa waivers, tour bookings, sometimes even accommodation, etc), which will surely flag that your passport is invalid or you become aware that the date is coming up.

All the railway needs to do is add a box asking you to input your railcard expiry date (if you select one) upon purchase online or on the TVM, and all the 'honest mistakes' will be taken care of before the issue. Then anybody caught has absolutely no excuse.

Not for me, just because a few people seem incapable of setting a remender on their phone or in a diary of the expiry date we sensible people have to select yet more information on a screen/phone/pc. Typical penalize the innocent strategy.

 

[WesternLancer]

To be fair, the number of people who genuinely dont realise a railcard has expired would be drastically reduced if they were checked more during ticket inspections.

However I understand why they are not checked more often. I personally dont ask for them (except the high value ones and the highly abused JCP card) because its such a ballache to do so. Checking tickets has become a tedious task of waiting for people to navigate slow apps in areas with little to no mobile signal to find their tickets - especially the painfully slow Trainpal and Trip.com apps. Then I ask for a Railcard and waste another 2 minutes of my life waiting for them to find it/download it while people down the front are getting a free ride as I havnt managed to get to them.

I certainly sympathise with all this.

 

[kristiang85]

The problem with this, of course, is that it means you need to have a Railcard at the point you buy the ticket (although you could lie about the expiry date unless there was some validation).

The consensus here is that this would be a Bad Thing in that it would mean - if you're buying an advance ticket for your next journey in two months time - that you have used up two months of validity without travelling. A counter to this is that when Railcards were invented, the expectation was that you would show your card on purchase. But this in turn can be countered by pointing out that the norm when Railcards were invented was to buy a walk-up ticket immediately before travel.

No I don't think that would be the case, because you wouldn't be held to the date - you'd just put your expected new Railcard expiry in. It's just a way of making sure you know it should be valid, as there aren't systems that match your actual Railcard expiry date with the booking . It could be worded "state your expected Railcard expiry date for this journey". Then the passenger has no excuse to not know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2026 ==

Not for me, just because a few people seem incapable of setting a remender on their phone or in a diary of the expiry date we sensible people have to select yet more information on a screen/phone/pc. Typical penalize the innocent strategy.

Whilst I agree this is an easy thing to do, I don't see how asking to input a date is "penalising the innocent". It's three seconds of data entry? Some people are genuinely forgetful for whatever reason, and it would reduce so much grief if this simple check was implemented.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

No I don't think that would be the case, because you wouldn't be held to the date - you'd just put your expected new Railcard expiry in. It's just a way of making sure you know it should be valid, as there aren't systems that match your actual Railcard expiry date with the booking .

It's a long time since I was a computer programmer, but I struggle with the desirability of requiring the entry of data which is neither required for the transaction nor validated*. And if implemented, how long would it be before
- some retailer decides to prepopulate it to save their customers' time, or
- social media picks up on it 'Save train fares through this simple hack - just choose a Railcard and set the date to 31/12/9999 and save up to half the fare'.

* Yes, I was with BRBS when one screen of (?) AXIS became so prone to timing out that a bespoke error message of 'Timed out: please enter your data more quickly' was implemented.

 

[Swedenorer]

This year I had an email from Railcard informing me of the expiry of my senior card bought from the station. Is this general?

 

[WesternLancer]

This year I had an email from Railcard informing me of the expiry of my senior card bought from the station. Is this general?

I had the same for both of the two railcards i have. Both bought at ticket offices fwiw.

 

[fandroid]

Passengers with accounts with retailers could simply be asked to voluntarily enter their Railcard information as part of their personal data. Then, as soon as tickets are ordered for a date beyond the expiry date, a flag could raised. Those who buy tickets for a variety of friends/family members as well could just ignore this facility and take personal responsibility for being aware of the date.

Most of the people we get on here who are caught are young individuals buying plenty of tickets just for themselves, so registering that information would both be more convenient for them and safer too than autofill not backed by a date.

The cynic in me thinks that maybe the railway does quite well out of fleecing poorly organised young people, given that the usual settlement sum is normally far greater than the actual loss in fares (or as many point out, the even smaller sum of just the forgotten renewal fee).

 

[Hadders]

This year I had an email from Railcard informing me of the expiry of my senior card bought from the station. Is this general?

Yes it is in my experience.

 

[Swedenorer]

The cynic in me thinks that maybe the railway does quite well out of fleecing poorly organised young people, given that the usual settlement sum is normally far greater than the actual loss in fares (or as many point out, the even smaller sum of just the forgotten renewal fee).

On the other hand it's the expensive but essential kind of lesson that many of us poorly organised young people needed at say 17! If he wasn't this it'd be a speeding ticket or forking out for exhausts that rot from the inside. Or in this case learning about paper trails!

 

[Haywain]

Most of the people we get on here who are caught are young individuals

Given the general availability of railcards is heavily biased towards young people* - 16-17 Saver, 16-25 Railcard, 26-30 Railcard - this is inevitable. Sales of 16-25 Railcards outweigh all others by quite a distance.


*This isn't a complaint.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Surely the ultimate solution is a central database of railcards, and a requirement to enter its number when buying tickets with a Railcard discount? That can then check the right card is being applied (no more 16-17/16-25 mis-presses), and that it's still in date?

 

[styles]

Surely the ultimate solution is a central database of railcards, and a requirement to enter its number when buying tickets with a Railcard discount? That can then check the right card is being applied (no more 16-17/16-25 mis-presses), and that it's still in date?

As mentioned further up in this thread though, you don't need a Railcard to buy a Railcard discounted ticket, because you might buy a ticket for say 1st May when it's currently 21st Feb. You may not have the Railcard yet because if you buy one now instead of on 1st May, you effectively lose 69 days of your Railcard validity while you're not using it between now and May.

Similarly if your Railcard expires 14th April, and you buy a ticket for 1st May, you don't yet have your new Railcard number to enter for the tickets for 1st May and won't have it until April.

 

[AlterEgo]

As mentioned further up in this thread though, you don't need a Railcard to buy a Railcard discounted ticket, because you might buy a ticket for say 1st May when it's currently 21st Feb. You may not have the Railcard yet because if you buy one now instead of on 1st May, you effectively lose 69 days of your Railcard validity while you're not using it between now and May.

Only if you don't propose turning a railcard into a subscription service where it is the date of purchase that matters rather than the travel. But this has been done to death here and there is no consensus on the issue.

 

[nw1]

. Think I'm right in saying that for travel to the EU.and Schengen area, UK passports must be less than 10 years old on the day of arrival and valid for at least three months after the intended departure date.

I always find that bizarre. Going back to the rail analogy, imagine being prosecuted for having a season ticket or railcard that was in-date but had less than three months of validity left!

 

[styles]

I always find that bizarre. Going back to the rail analogy, imagine being prosecuted for having a season ticket or railcard that was in-date but had less than three months of validity left!

If you are on an overseas trip and it is unexpectedly extended, e.g. you end up in hospital or there is an epidemic which bars travel for a while, having in date documents makes sense.

It's not such a concern for a rail season ticket, barring the fact that your journey home from hospital might coat you a bit more!

 

[nw1]

Given the general availability of railcards is heavily biased towards young people* - 16-17 Saver, 16-25 Railcard, 26-30 Railcard - this is inevitable. Sales of 16-25 Railcards outweigh all others by quite a distance.


*This isn't a complaint.

Interesting the higher age has increased over time. I wasn't lucky enough to be offered a 26-30 railcard when I was that age, but at least I was eligible for the YPRC when I was 24 and 25 (and most of 26 too, as I renewed just before my 26th birthday). Previously the YPRC was 16-23, I remember adverts in the 80s mentioning that age range. By the time I got to 24, though, the extension to 25 had been around for quite some time IIRC, though can't remember when it changed over.

Controversially, as most 16 and 17 year olds are, AFAIK, in full-time education nowadays, I'd argue it's time to extend half-fares to the age of 18. The days when people went out to work at 16 are presumably long gone. Even in my day (I turned 16 in the later years of Thatcher, to give a rough general idea without giving my exact age) staying on at school or attending college appeared to be the norm.

 

[Hadders]

Surely the ultimate solution is a central database of railcards, and a requirement to enter its number when buying tickets with a Railcard discount? That can then check the right card is being applied (no more 16-17/16-25 mis-presses), and that it's still in date?

And wait for railcard numbers to be shared between friends, or on social media etc…

 

[duffield]

Surely the ultimate solution is a central database of railcards, and a requirement to enter its number when buying tickets with a Railcard discount? That can then check the right card is being applied (no more 16-17/16-25 mis-presses), and that it's still in date?

I'll just summarise some of the issues with this that I've seen mentioned previously

• People buy advance tickets, often months ahead, without possessing the relevant railcards (either they have a railcard but it will expire and be replaced, possibly by a different age band, or they don't yet have one at all) but which will be validated by their purchase of a railcard just before travel, so it is impossible for them to enter the railcard details at the time of purchase. In general, having or not having a specific valid railcard at the time of purchase is irrelevant to the situation at the time of travel. Some tickets don't even have a specific date of travel (e.g. open returns) so there is absolutely no way to validate railcard entitlement until the actual day of travel.
• People buy tickets for other people, groups, family, friends, who may have various railcards. Having to manually collect and correctly enter the numbers for these various cards is onerous.
• Having to enter manually and correctly long railcard numbers at the TVM when there is a queue is problematic
• There is no current incentive for the railcard sellers to get together an pay for such a central database, so it would probably need to be a taxpayer/farepayer funded venture.

The first point above appears to be a bit of a show-stopper for requiring railcard numbers at time of purchase. The entire basis of how railcards work would need re-thinking from scratch.

 

[AlterEgo]

And wait for railcard numbers to be shared between friends, or on social media etc…

Not difficult to enforce if you just make people have a free digital or physical photocard which does not expire and print the passenger's name on the ticket. The railway does this already for much higher value tickets.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

. The entire basis of how railcards work would need re-thinking from scratch.

Given that Railcards have been around for the best part of 50 years (maybe longer? I know I had what was then a student Railcard when I was at school in the early 1980s) a case could probably be made for a post-implementation review being carried out sooner rather than later to at least tune the offer.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Points taken on board.

Perhaps the central database is only validated for on the day tickets, or those purchased for travel within the next (say) 48 hours?

 

[Swedenorer]

Controversially, as most 16 and 17 year olds are, AFAIK, in full-time education nowadays, I'd argue it's time to extend half-fares to the age of 18. The days when people went out to work at 16 are presumably long gone. Even in my day (I turned 16 in the later years of Thatcher, to give a rough general idea without giving my exact age) staying on at school or attending college appeared to be the norm.

I've thought this for years. Trouble is it's too simple.

 

[duffield]

Given that Railcards have been around for the best part of 50 years (maybe longer? I know I had what was then a student Railcard when I was at school in the early 1980s) a case could probably be made for a post-implementation review being carried out sooner rather than later to at least tune the offer.

Cynically, I'd be concerned that a review with at least one objective to make them more fraud-resistant would end up with them being less flexible and useful for passengers who current use them entirely within the rules.