Expected changes to Northern & TPE with stock changes

[Solent&Wessex]

I've noticed that, in the last few days, 185s have become the norm again on the Hull-Manchester services for the first time in several years. There are currently two 185s in Hull station and not a 170 in sight. Are TPE reshuffling the pack already?

There was a 185 on the 5:58 from Meadowhall this morning, typically a 170 except on Fridays - sign of things to come or just a bank holiday week special ? Any idea of which services will be a doubled up 170 ? Hopefully the 17:20 Man-Shf

The 170s are breaking down with increasing frequency at the moment so the appearance of additional 185s is mainly due to a shortage of 170s. The 185s are only temporarily spare due to 350 introduction, but the May timetable not starting yet. Expect short forms from May unless anything changes soon.

 

[northwichcat]

There was a 185 on the 5:58 from Meadowhall this morning, typically a 170 except on Fridays - sign of things to come or just a bank holiday week special ? Any idea of which services will be a doubled up 170 ? Hopefully the 17:20 Man-Shf

Only sure on one diagram. The 03:25 Sheffield-Airport will be operated by a 2 car 170 which will then join on to another 2 car 170 later on meaning the 07:08 Sheffield-Manchester Airport (08:02 arrival at Manchester Picc) and the 15:55 Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes (which departs Sheffield at 17:10) will be 4 car.

 

[Haydn1971]

Only sure on one diagram. The 03:25 Sheffield-Airport will be operated by a 2 car 170 which will then join on to another 2 car 170 later on meaning the 07:08 Sheffield-Manchester Airport (08:02 arrival at Manchester Picc) and the 15:55 Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes (which departs Sheffield at 17:10) will be 4 car.

The 07:08 from Sheffield as a four car would be useful, the 16:20 from Manchester less so... Ah well, can't have it all ways

Useful to know though... Is that from now ?

 

[northwichcat]

Useful to know though... Is that from now ?

Should be from the May timetable change subject to the problems kwvr45 describes being solved.

 

[IanXC]

The 170s are breaking down with increasing frequency at the moment so the appearance of additional 185s is mainly due to a shortage of 170s. The 185s are only temporarily spare due to 350 introduction, but the May timetable not starting yet. Expect short forms from May unless anything changes soon.

That makes sense. I saw later that the next service from the stock Max described was described on the boards as "front 2 coaches only" which confirms 170s are still diagrammed I suppose. Perhaps we'll have the last laugh in the North when Chiltern get the 170s afterall (!)

 

[Old Hill Bank]

That makes sense. I saw later that the next service from the stock Max described was described on the boards as "front 2 coaches only" which confirms 170s are still diagrammed I suppose. Perhaps we'll have the last laugh in the North when Chiltern get the 170s afterall (!)

Please IanXC we need trains all over the country not just in the north.

 

[northwichcat]

Please IanXC we need trains all over the country not just in the north.

And the North needs a decent number of additional carriages, as identified by the previous government years ago. Every time the North has gets new stock they have to donate some of their existing carriages to another part of the country. The previous government said TPE needed 40 extra carriages and passenger numbers on TPE have grown since then.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

And the North needs a decent number of additional carriages, as identified by the previous government years ago. Every time the North has gets new stock they have to donate some of their existing carriages to another part of the country. The previous government said TPE needed 40 extra carriages and passenger numbers on TPE have grown since then.

I have no issue about the needs of the North, it's on here ad nauseium. Quite right the 170 issue should be raised and has been and noted. The West Midlands is approaching a similar state, albeit with more modern stock. All we hear on this forum is about the North. It's called "UK Railway" not "North Railway" Please accept that the rest of the UK has issues as well.

 

[318259]

Once Scotland completes its big electrification plans and buys more EMUs, we'll probably have quite a few DMUs to send to the North of England.

You can have all the class 156 units you want They're incredibly loud.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Once Scotland completes its big electrification plans and buys more EMUs, we'll probably have quite a few DMUs to send to the North of England.

You can have all the class 156 units you want They're incredibly loud.

Not as loud as the 150s, Chiltern needed some three car 170s from Scotland wiring but that's to late!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have no issue about the needs of the North, it's on here ad nauseium. Quite right the 170 issue should be raised and has been and noted. The West Midlands is approaching a similar state, albeit with more modern stock. All we hear on this forum is about the North. It's called "UK Railway" not "North Railway" Please accept that the rest of the UK has issues as well.

How often do Class 142 Pacers visit your area of Kidderminster... if ever. If you have never travelled regularly on an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacer, you have never lived...

When was the last time that the West Midlands triumphly announced there would be a new service to use a new re-constructed chord...then only found out there was no rolling stock to operate it (refer to the Todmorden Chord thread as the Northern Rail TOC involved, this being what we have been faced with up here.) I note with a certain amount on unbridled cynicism that Chiltern Trains did not offer some of their stock to Northern Rail to help out.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

How often do Class 142 Pacers visit your area of Kidderminster... if ever. If you have never travelled regularly on an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 Pacer, you have never lived...

When was the last time that the West Midlands triumphly announced there would be a new service to use a new re-constructed chord...then only found out there was no rolling stock to operate it (refer to the Todmorden Chord thread as the Northern Rail TOC involved, this being what we have been faced with up here.) I note with a certain amount on unbridled cynicism that Chiltern Trains did not offer some of their stock to Northern Rail to help out.

Save the 142s, we are heading that way with our funded infrastructure upgrades there aint enough 323s to do Redditch and Bromsgrove never mind Chase Line.

Lot's of people liked the 172s and they are good but not enough were built to cover the job, Snow Hill Lines have bad days!!!

 

[Haydn1971]

You can have all the class 156 units you want They're incredibly loud.

No thanks... What the Northern Franchise needs is a programme of replacement or complete refurbishment - the Pacers need to go full stop, the 15x units need a full refurbishment, the hand me down 319's need a full refurb, a fleet of lightweight low running cost hybrid EMU/DMU's need ordering ASAP for short haul routes and the 185's retained after the core TPE line is electrified for cascade to other heavy use routes that are yet to be wired

 

[318259]

Sadly it's just the way things always are. Busy areas and touristy areas get new trains, everywhere else gets the old cast-offs.

Even in Hungary, the commuter lines around Budapest and the touristy routes to Esztergom and Lake Balaton have nice, new, airconditioned Desiros and Bombardier Talents. Other routes still have old Soviet locos and carriages.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

No thanks... What the Northern Franchise needs is a programme of replacement or complete refurbishment - the Pacers need to go full stop, the 15x units need a full refurbishment, the hand me down 319's need a full refurb, a fleet of lightweight low running cost hybrid EMU/DMU's need ordering ASAP for short haul routes and the 185's retained after the core TPE line is electrified for cascade to other heavy use routes that are yet to be wired

Yes!!

 

[northwichcat]

You can have all the class 156 units you want They're incredibly loud.

Currently Northern have 79 x 142s, 23 x 144s, 60 x 150s, 18 x 153s and 7 x 155s. We'll take 180-190 x class 156s as replacement for those units - well you said all the 156s we wanted!

If you don't like loud units I take it you don't want to see class 185s cascaded to Scotrail routes.

 

[Haydn1971]

Sadly it's just the way things always are. Busy areas and touristy areas get new trains, everywhere else gets the old cast-offs.

Just two "express" trains per hour travel between two of the largest urban areas in the UK (Manchester and Sheffield), there's just a single carriageway trunk road between them both (A628), it takes about an hour to travel the (as the crow flies) 38 miles between them on a train, or about 80 minutes by car if you are lucky and not travelling in peak... To be fair, Sheffield to Leeds is a tad better, Leeds to Manchester is a mixed bag of direct but very busy motorway or rammed 185 service.

As a regular user of the high frequency high capacity services through London, I get annoyed at people telling me that rail isn't busy up here - numbers aren't the same levels up here as the services in London, but the trains are more crowded in the north especially at peak and personally, I'm sick of the stress of fighting each morning and evening that I have to use a train to get a seat

 

[Brian Aylott]

Currently Northern have 79 x 142s, 23 x 144s, 60 x 150s, 18 x 153s and 7 x 155s. We'll take 180-190 x class 156s as replacement for those units - well you said all the 156s we wanted!

When did the extra 2 x 150s turn up?
Brian

 

[northwichcat]

Lot's of people liked the 172s and they are good but not enough were built to cover the job, Snow Hill Lines have bad days!!!

Well Good News (as Professor Farnsworth from Futurama would say) LO will give up their 172s in 2018: http://www.publictenders.net/node/2559296
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Sadly it's just the way things always are. Busy areas and touristy areas get new trains, everywhere else gets the old cast-offs.

Taking one service as an example - Manchester Airport to Southport - that serves one of the largest Airports in the UK, one of the UK largest cities, a number of other sizeable places and a popular seaside resort and yet the usual traction is a pair of 142s!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Well Good News (as Professor Farnsworth from Futurama would say) LO will give up their 172s in 2018: http://www.publictenders.net/node/2559296

Ha ha then someone will have to fit loo's in them!!!

 

[northwichcat]

When did the extra 2 x 150s turn up?
Brian

Wikipedia shows Northern have 30 x 150/1s and 30 x 150/2s
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Ha ha then someone will have to fit loo's in them!!!

Or - if the Snow Hill Lines get them then the operator could do the same with the LO 172s as was previously done with the 150/2s - use them as centre carriages for the 2 car units.

There will be plenty of new toilets being fitted around then with so many ex-BR units expected to get new accessible retention toilets before the end of 2019.

 

[tbtc]

Taking one service as an example - Manchester Airport to Southport - that serves one of the largest Airports in the UK, one of the UK largest cities, a number of other sizeable places and a popular seaside resort and yet the usual traction is a pair of 142s!

Whereas popular seaside resorts down south get stock like the 313s in Brighton and the 483s on the Isle of Wight (and, until recently, the 421s on the Lymington route, Pacers in Cornwall...) - we can all do selective quoting.

 

[Haydn1971]

I wouldn't really cite Manchester Airport as badly serviced with all the 185/350's that call there

 

[northwichcat]

tbtc - Cornwall hasn't seen Pacers since the mid-1980s, Pacers are even banned from most Cornish lines. You mean 142s were recently used in Devon - the county next to Cornwall.

Also before MML electrification was announced you were constantly going on about how bad Sheffield has it and doesn't have the promise of electrification that the North West has and completely ignored the fact that Sheffield has a significant amount of modern stock (Voyagers, 222s, 170s and 185s) as well as heavily refurbished 158s. And now you're objecting to me saying the Southport line has it bad when I specifically responding to a post about lines serving busy and tourist areas and made it clear it was 1 example? (I've actually used the Manchester Airport-Southport service as much as I've used the Southeastern Greenwich line and named it because it was the best example I could think of where old poor quality stock operates on a line that serves both large settlements and a tourist destination not because it's a line in the North West.)

 

[Brian Aylott]

Wikipedia shows Northern have 30 x 150/1s and 30 x 150/2s

Wiki wrong then - NH had an allocation of 28 x 150/2s a week or so ago
Brian

 

[Class 170101]

Currently Northern have 79 x 142s, 23 x 144s, 60 x 150s, 18 x 153s and 7 x 155s. We'll take 180-190 x class 156s as replacement for those units - well you said all the 156s we wanted!

18x 153s - make that an extra 9x Class 155s once DDA kicks in I would suggest. You might want to hold onto the Pacers for a longer.

Total number of 153s across the country is around 70. So thats 35x Class 155s reformed. Now 35 trains need to be found.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even in Hungary, the commuter lines around Budapest and the touristy routes to Esztergom and Lake Balaton have nice, new, airconditioned Desiros and Bombardier Talents. Other routes still have old Soviet locos and carriages.

Any of these old Soviet locos and carriages spare at the moment to lend Northern Rail run its Blackburn - Burnley - Copy Pit line - Manchester service that has no rolling stock to run it.....

 

[deltic08]

Just two "express" trains per hour travel between two of the largest urban areas in the UK (Manchester and Sheffield), there's just a single carriageway trunk road between them both (A628), it takes about an hour to travel the (as the crow flies) 38 miles between them on a train, or about 80 minutes by car if you are lucky and not travelling in peak... To be fair, Sheffield to Leeds is a tad better, Leeds to Manchester is a mixed bag of direct but very busy motorway or rammed 185 service.

As a regular user of the high frequency high capacity services through London, I get annoyed at people telling me that rail isn't busy up here - numbers aren't the same levels up here as the services in London, but the trains are more crowded in the north especially at peak and personally, I'm sick of the stress of fighting each morning and evening that I have to use a train to get a seat

I totally agree. It is just as crowded in the North as the South as we suffer from short formations due to lack of sufficient stock because Southerners take it from us.

 

[northwichcat]

18x 153s - make that an extra 9x Class 155s once DDA kicks in I would suggest. You might want to hold onto the Pacers for a longer.

Total number of 153s across the country is around 70. So thats 35x Class 155s reformed. Now 35 trains need to be found.

Well under the Porterbrook proposals for making the 143s and 144s complaint the seated capacity would be reduce to around 80 seats (except on the 3 car 144s) so that would make them possible class 153 replacement. However, they do want an operator to sign a 10 year lease for the 143s and 144s if they carry out that refurbishment.
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I totally agree. It is just as crowded in the North as the South as we suffer from short formations due to lack of sufficient stock because Southerners take it from us.

Aside from the 170/3s that Chiltern are going to take what stock has the South taken from the North?

1. The 142s that were put in to warm storage by Northern.
2. The 2 and 3 car 158s that TPE ordered 185s to replace.
3. The 180s that Northern took on a temporary sublease due to cascaded 150s not being available in time.
4. The mk3s that Virgin replaced with Pendolinos.

If you mean moved south rather than went to the south then you could include the 175s that transferred to South Wales routes and the Sprinters that went from Northern to EMT.

Normally complaints are because second hand stock moves North?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a 185 on the 5:58 from Meadowhall this morning, typically a 170 except on Fridays - sign of things to come or just a bank holiday week special ? Any idea of which services will be a doubled up 170 ? Hopefully the 17:20 Man-Shf

The 08:05 Sheffield-Man 17:20 Man-Sheffield are set to be included on the other 4 car working.

 

[deltic08]

Aside from the 170/3s that Chiltern are going to take what stock has the South taken from the North?

1. The 142s that were put in to warm storage by Northern.
2. The 2 and 3 car 158s that TPE ordered 185s to replace.
3. The 180s that Northern took on a temporary sublease due to cascaded 150s not being available in time.
4. The mk3s that Virgin replaced with Pendolinos.

If you mean moved south rather than went to the south then you could include the 175s that transferred to South Wales routes and the Sprinters that went from Northern to EMT.

Isn't losing 9 class 170's bad enough when you have to stand everyday on your commute already?