Exeter to Waterloo Electrification?

[Philip Phlopp]

Thanks for that. Even so Eurostar did it for years without CCTV at both Sandling and Fawkham Junction when changing from 3rd rail to OHLE. Only hiccup I remember was the train that lost its pantograph on the signal gantry at Sandling after it failed to lower.

More interesting to me is the driver of a train approaching Newbury from London getting all the diesels started up on the move before the wire runs out. I assume this would be automatic to some extent.

It's not going to be a regular occurrence, and I'm sure the pantograph well design and even the pantograph type play a major role in this, so it might be an issue that doesn't really affect the IEP units with their BR/BW High Speed Pantograph, which does have less parts for debris to collect on, compared with the old Stone Faiveley design.

The engines, as I understand it, will be pre-heated whilst running on electric and will be started at a pre-determined point so they're up to temperature prior to the end of the electric sections. The pre-heating reduces engine wear and also reduces emissions at start-up, and by allowing the engines to reach the correct temperatures before they're put to work, life expectancy and wear is again reduced.

 

[17jwarman]

So I realise this is an old forum but I have been reading through it and as someone who uses the line often I have some points to make.

Firstly, in regards to AC/DC switchovers at Basingstoke, I think this is what is going to end up happening. If all trains we're made to stop here (which most of them do anyway) then they could all do the changeover whilst waiting in the platform which is probably the best idea. As for freight trains, well they could have a siding just out of the station maybe where they could make the change but I feel that we are looking at them changing whilst on the move.

Secondly, we all talk about the changeover at Basingstoke, but what about at the other end? Southampton Central looks like a good candidate, but then think of the logistics of it for a London to Weymouth train. London to Basingstoke on 3rd rail, then Basingstoke to Southampton (on a relatively short stretch of the journey) on OHLE and then Southampton to Weymouth on 3rd rail. This seems ridiculous surley, especially if you factor in the cost of fitting the pantograph to the 444s/450s. This electric spine might have to happen as the start of a wider scheme to convert the 3rd rail system.

Also, if we are just talking about electrifiying the West of England Main Line, a changeover at Andover and Romsey would easily be the best solution. All trains stop at Andover so the 3rd rail would get there from Basingstoke and a nice, comfortable changeover in a two track simple station would occur at a standstill. Same for Romsey, but the electrification would come from Redbridge and Eastleigh. If we arent ever going to electrify this line, bi mode units are the way to go once the 158/9's need replacing.

Trains from Waterloo to Exeter are very well patronised and I see no point in leaving these lines unelectrified. On a countrywide scale this line is relatively insignificant but from a local point of view it is essential, as with many other secondary and rural lines. I think it would need to be OHLE, as it would meet up with the (eventual, one hopes) OHLE from Newbury at Exeter. Rail electrification probably one of the most important things to in rail today. Living in the far southwest I do see the money lavished on the southeast and the north. Heck, when the GWML electrification was annouced, we we,re still going to have HST's. The Class 802's were only an afterthought. And to get rid of the Pacers, we are just going to get displaced 150's from Bristol, which is not the best solution. In 10 years time, all the Sprinters will be near life expired and the railway is going to have to spend millions upon millions in either buying new diesel trains (which is stupid in my opinion), mass electrification and new stock, or (like the north) bi mode units. In my opinion, we need to stop procrastinating and get on with stringing up those wires.

 

[swt_passenger]

The latest policy is that there will be no significant third rail extensions. DC third rail to Andover, Romsey or even Salisbury from either Basingstoke or Redbridge/Eastleigh is all but out of the question.

Once units are made capable of AC/DC changeover, changing more than once, e.g. at both Basingstoke and Southampton, is no more difficult than a single change.

The 'electric spine' when announced by DfT in the 2012 High Level Output Specification (HLOS) was definitely seen (by them at least) as the start of a wider scheme:

The change at renewal of Southampton to Basingstoke - the southern section of the Electric Spine - to the modern overhead AC system will also test the business case for the wider conversion of the third rail electric network south of the Thames to overhead line equipment.

Who knows what the next HLOS in 2017 (for 2019 onwards) will include, it is obviously all being deferred at the moment.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I agree it is crying out for electrification but there is a lot on and the resources are not unlimited. Politics will always come into play. I would argue Derby-Exeter will come first. Basingstoke -Salisbury - then Salisbury -Exeter. If that comes before 2035 I will be delighted but surprised. There are just not enough resources and too many other things that need to get finished first. Heck even MML surely a priority will be 2022 before completion.

 

[HowardGWR]

I agree it is crying out for electrification but there is a lot on and the resources are not unlimited. Politics will always come into play. I would argue Derby-Exeter will come first. Basingstoke -Salisbury - then Salisbury -Exeter. If that comes before 2035 I will be delighted but surprised. There are just not enough resources and too many other things that need to get finished first. Heck even MML surely a priority will be 2022 before completion.

I agree with your judgement on those rail priorities. However, I do think that, given social, economic and environmental priorities, those rail improvements outweigh proposed A303 widenings. The A303 is not actually a major source of delays, see Highways England historical data. Even if there are some peak delays, it is actually environmentally desirable that these are not addressed with increased road capacity.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I agree it is crying out for electrification but there is a lot on and the resources are not unlimited. Politics will always come into play. I would argue Derby-Exeter will come first. Basingstoke -Salisbury - then Salisbury -Exeter. If that comes before 2035 I will be delighted but surprised. There are just not enough resources and too many other things that need to get finished first. Heck even MML surely a priority will be 2022 before completion.

They SWT Class 158 and Class 159 fleets will last until the West of England route is wired to Exeter. It would be a nice route to electrify sooner, in combination with Newbury and Bristol to Exeter (with the Weston-Super-Mare loop) but there's higher priorities - the key is to get Bristol to Birmingham and Birmingham to Derby wired so there's a complete electric route from Bristol to Edinburgh for CrossCountry.

That should take out the last 125mph non electrified route mileage too, from memory.

 

[edwin_m]

Once units are made capable of AC/DC changeover, changing more than once, e.g. at both Basingstoke and Southampton, is no more difficult than a single change.

Agreed. In the past the 70s-tech on the 313s was expected to change system two or three times on each journey round the North London Line.

 

[59CosG95]

They SWT Class 158 and Class 159 fleets will last until the West of England route is wired to Exeter. It would be a nice route to electrify sooner, in combination with Newbury and Bristol to Exeter (with the Weston-Super-Mare loop) but there's higher priorities - the key is to get Bristol to Birmingham and Birmingham to Derby wired so there's a complete electric route from Bristol to Edinburgh for CrossCountry.

That should take out the last 125mph non electrified route mileage too, from memory.

Isn't some of the Bristol-Exeter stretch 125mph? I'm not too familiar with that route so I'm happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Isn't some of the Bristol-Exeter stretch 125mph? I'm not too familiar with that route so I'm happy to be proven wrong.

110mph max from Uphill Jn to just past Highbridge West, the rest is 100mph (or less).

Class 350 or Class 387 units would provide some serious journey time improvements on that route, if it's electrified.

 

[NSEFAN]

Philip Phlopp, regarding AC-DC changeovers, would it be simpler in your view to have SWML trains doing a changeover from AC to DC on the move, just east of Basingstoke station? In my mind this would be easier and cheaper for the infrastructure, as you wouldn't have to provide all the crazy grounding arrangements and immunisation for all the structures nearby, instead only for 4 tracks with no other pointwork or major structures nearby. Similarly at Southampton, where the changeover could in fact be somewhere between St Denys and Bitterne for the Solent Link route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Firstly, in regards to AC/DC switchovers at Basingstoke, I think this is what is going to end up happening. If all trains we're made to stop here (which most of them do anyway) then they could all do the changeover whilst waiting in the platform which is probably the best idea. As for freight trains, well they could have a siding just out of the station maybe where they could make the change but I feel that we are looking at them changing whilst on the move.

For a decade or so, Eurostars made the DC/AC changeover "on the run" at 100mph at Cheriton.
There's no reason to force the changeover whilst stationary in a station.

Won't all freight run Reading-Southampton on AC?
That's one of the main points of the electric spine.
There's hardly any freight on the SWML east of Basingstoke, or west of Salisbury (Wilton Jn).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Philip Phlopp, regarding AC-DC changeovers, would it be simpler in your view to have SWML trains doing a changeover from AC to DC on the move, just east of Basingstoke station? In my mind this would be easier and cheaper for the infrastructure, as you wouldn't have to provide all the crazy grounding arrangements and immunisation for all the structures nearby, instead only for 4 tracks with no other pointwork or major structures nearby. Similarly at Southampton, where the changeover could in fact be somewhere between St Denys and Bitterne for the Solent Link route.

LNW-GW Joint is spot on.

The changeover location would depend on the North Downs Line electrification and its feeding arrangements, perhaps going as far east as Pirbright Jn or Brookwood could be sensible in combination with NDL wiring though I'd tend to support Farnborough Main to begin with.

Changeovers directly east of Basingstoke are slightly pointless for terminating services - fitting stock with pantographs and transformers for a mile and the issue of blocking the line if there's a failed changeover, so I would move a bit further east for practical reasons.

Farnborough Main station (for me) is the best place for DC to AC changeover - it cuts another ~100 single track kilometres (stk) of DC third rail and it makes a nice changeover location, leaving Basingstoke completely clear of DC, buttressing nicely with the Reading to Southampton Electric Spine program.

Farnborough with the two platform lines, two through lines and crossovers to allow trains to turn back seems like a good option.

 

[JohnR]

I remember reading in Modern Railways in around 1980 that Waterloo-Exeter was the 10th most profitable route on BR. There was even some talk at that time of it going into InterCity.

 

[steevp]

Woolly thinking - deleted

 

[Xavi]

I remember reading in Modern Railways in around 1980 that Waterloo-Exeter was the 10th most profitable route on BR. There was even some talk at that time of it going into InterCity.

Probably even more so today. Relatively low-cost and very reliable rolling stock, regular hourly or better service, efficient operation (3/6-car west of Salisbury), minimal re-signalled infrastructure west of Salisbury and very well used...

 

[HowardGWR]

Surely double tracking west of Salisbury to Exeter is more important than electrification, as a first step, although I see that in doing so, one may as well prepare structures. There are several tunnels and a lot of low bridges. There is even an inadequate bridge under the M5 near Exeter - a scandal, that one.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Surely double tracking west of Salisbury to Exeter is more important than electrification, as a first step, although I see that in doing so, one may as well prepare structures. There are several tunnels and a lot of low bridges. There is even an inadequate bridge under the M5 near Exeter - a scandal, that one.

Just do it all at once..... Double and electrification prep followed immediately by electrification.

Admittedly i don't know how justified that is having never travelled the line.

 

[jayiscupid]

Just do it all at once..... Double and electrification prep followed immediately by electrification.

Admittedly i don't know how justified that is having never travelled the line.

That would be the dream but I think the plan is to build a dynamic loop near Feniton to allow Exeter - Axminster to go half hourly.

The whole line was originally double track so tunnels are built for it but I'm not sure if they pass the new regulations. I imagine tracks would also need to be lowered for any wiring.