Excess Tickets

[northwichcat]

I'm surprised they haven't even picked up on the fact that if you buy an off-peak ticket and then need to travel in the peak period that it can be excessed, opposed to getting a refund minus an admin fee then buying a new ticket. I don't think it's that in itself that'd cause the ATOC to act - it'll be some of the loopholes that would.

 

[IainH]

Could you give me a bit of advice on an Excess? I bought in advance a Farnborough Main - Peckham offpeak return (not day return, with Gold Card discount).
Change of plan meant I had to travel out in the peak. Took to ticket office, first response was go away and talk to where you bought it from (even though I asked for an excess). As that was Scotrail and also I didnt expect to get any sense from calling them, I tried again on the day, and after some fiddling was sold a single (not an excess). I realise that there is no Peak Anytime return with other than day validity for the flow, but was that the right ticket? Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

Could you give me a bit of advice on an Excess? I bought in advance a Farnborough Main - Peckham offpeak return (not day return, with Gold Card discount).
Change of plan meant I had to travel out in the peak. Took to ticket office, first response was go away and talk to where you bought it from (even though I asked for an excess). As that was Scotrail and also I didnt expect to get any sense from calling them, I tried again on the day, and after some fiddling was sold a single (not an excess). I realise that there is no Peak Anytime return with other than day validity for the flow, but was that the right ticket? Thanks.

Farnborough Stations - Peckham Rye Off Peak Return Route +Any Permitted with Gold Card discount is £16.50. Valid after 0930.

There is no Anytime Return to excess to, however the equivalent product would be 2 x SDS @ £8.30, totalling £16.60.

By rights, the excess should be 10p. However I am unsure if such an excess is possible.

 

[scotsman]

Here's one for you:

I was travelling from Dalmeny to Glenrothes with Thornton, but I bought a ticket to Dalgety Bay instead (cheaper and valid via Glenrothes) the TTI on the train asked where I was actually going, I answered honestly and was excessed to Glenrothes. He claims that my ticket was only valid if I stayed on the train all the way to Dalgety Bay. However, are you not entitled to a break of journey on an open single?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, you are.

I'd have said I was breaking my journey at Glenrothes and then continuing to Dalgety Bay, however I may change my mind and have not decided yet.

FSR are trying (or have tried?) to get the rules changed because they are against the idea of a few bashers doing the 67 round the loop on a cheap ticket. When I did it with someone else, the guard accepted the ticket but gave a 'I know what you're doing' look!

If I was doing York - Donny at 8:50am and returning another day, I'd buy to Sheffield as it's cheaper. Totally legit to get off early. If it's more expensive to buy a ticket to a previous stop that's their problem, not mine!

 

[Ferret]

Here's one for you:

I was travelling from Dalmeny to Glenrothes with Thornton, but I bought a ticket to Dalgety Bay instead (cheaper and valid via Glenrothes) the TTI on the train asked where I was actually going, I answered honestly and was excessed to Glenrothes. He claims that my ticket was only valid if I stayed on the train all the way to Dalgety Bay. However, are you not entitled to a break of journey on an open single?

The word that springs to mind begins with a 'b' and is not suitable for a family forum!

 

[scotsman]

The word that springs to mind begins with a 'b' and is not suitable for a family forum!

What? My theory or his?
I really don't mind you saying, it'll help me in future!

 

[Ferret]

What? My theory or his?
I really don't mind you saying, it'll help me in future!

His theory!

 

[455driver]

I think it rhymes with "warlocks" (nearly ) if that helps

He means the guards not yours scotsman.

 

[scotsman]

I think it rhymes with "warlocks" (nearly ) if that helps

He means the guards not yours scotsman.

Cheers lads, I may have done TTI duties but only on a preserved line with v. simple fares!

 

[Username]

Here's one for you:

I was travelling from Dalmeny to Glenrothes with Thornton, but I bought a ticket to Dalgety Bay instead (cheaper and valid via Glenrothes) the TTI on the train asked where I was actually going, I answered honestly and was excessed to Glenrothes. He claims that my ticket was only valid if I stayed on the train all the way to Dalgety Bay. However, are you not entitled to a break of journey on an open single?

Well your conductor was wrong about one thing. No ticket from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay is valid via Glenrothes with Thornton, regardless of whether you stay on board or not. It's just not a permitted route.

Permitted routes between Dalmeny (Edinburgh Group Routeing Point Member) and Dalgety bay ((1)Inverkeithing Group or (2) Kirkcaldy Group) are illustrated on map FK of the Routeing Guide and there is no route via GLT.

 

[Mojo]

Well your conductor was wrong about one thing. No ticket from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay is valid via Glenrothes with Thornton, regardless of whether you stay on board or not. It's just not a permitted route.

Permitted routes between Dalmeny (Edinburgh Group Routeing Point Member) and Dalgety bay ((1)Inverkeithing Group or (2) Kirkcaldy Group) are illustrated on map FK of the Routeing Guide and there is no route via GLT.

This is irrelevant. If you are on an advertised through train there is no need to consult the routeing guide.

Also, for future reference, Kirkcaldy is not a valid routeing point for that journey as it fails the fare check rule.

 

[Username]

This is irrelevant. If you are on an advertised through train there is no need to consult the routeing guide.

Also, for future reference, Kirkcaldy is not a valid routeing point for that journey as it fails the fare check rule.

Not so, the routing guide should be consulted when the passenger is not travelling by the shortest route.

"You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route."


And I'm glad you bring up the point about Kirkcaldy not being a valid routeing point due to the fare check rule as Glenrothes with Thornton is a Kirkcaldy Group Routeing Point Member. All the more reason that Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay is not valid via GLT.

Always good to get corroboration

 

[Ivo]

That only applies when the service is not direct though. I could have done Southport to Chester via Manchester yesterday if I'd gotten to SOP literally two minutes earlier; could Northern have done anything about it? As the Merseyrail sales assistant confirmed, no.

London Fenchurch Street to Southend Central via Ockendon isn't the shortest route, but that doesn't make it invalid.

 

[yorkie]

"You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route."

Checkmate!

 

[Mojo]

Not so, the routing guide should be consulted when the passenger is not travelling by the shortest route.

"You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route."

You have quoted exactly what I just said. If the customer is using an advertised through train then the routeing guide does not need to be looked at.

 

[Username]

Checkmate!

So we're agreed?

If the passenger is not using a through service we check the routeing guide.
If the passenger is not using the shortest route we check the routeing guide.

So in this case the passenger is not using the shortest route, so we check the routeing guide.
Upon checking the routeing guide we find that when travelling from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay it is not valid to travel via Glenrothes with Thornton because it fails the fare check rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Checkmate!

You have quoted exactly what I just said. If the customer is using an advertised through train then the routeing guide does not need to be looked at.

No, I said it did have to be consulted because the customer is not travelling via the shortest route.

 

[Mojo]

So we're agreed?

If the passenger is not using a through service we check the routeing guide.
If the passenger is not using the shortest route we check the routeing guide

No. If a passenger is not using a through service AND is not using the shortest route we check the guide. This conclusion is reached by the use of the word 'or' in the quote above and also the flowchart on page 1 of the instructions of the guide.

So in this case the passenger is not using the shortest route, so we check the routeing guide.

You would, only if they were not on a through train.

Upon checking the routeing guide we find that when travelling from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay it is not valid to travel via Glenrothes with Thornton because it fails the fare check rule.

If you checked the maps, it is not valid because it is not a mapped route, nothing to do with fare check rule. But you don't check the maps.

 

[Username]

No. If a passenger is not using a through service AND is not using the shortest route we check the guide. This is verified by the use of the word 'or' in the quote above and also the flowchart on page 1 of the instructions of the guide.

You would, only if they were not on a through train.

Soooooooo . . . . . you say it's not valid because it's not a mapped route? . . . . . but it's a through service and you say you don't check routeing on through services because they're always permitted routes even when not travelling in the shortest direction . . . . so it is valid even though it's not???


Nope lost me

 

[Mojo]

Soooooooo . . . . . you say it's not valid because it's not a mapped route? . . . . . but it's a through service and you say you don't check routeing on through services because they're always permitted routes even when not travelling in the shortest direction . . . . so it is valid even though it's not???

It's nothing to do with being a mapped route or not. You should never get to the stage of checking the maps until you have checked whether it's a through train, or the shortest distance (or within 3 miles of the shortest). It's valid because it's an advertised through train and is only valid for that reason.

 

[Username]

Well if you're going to go back and edit your posts like that then I may as well take my ball and go home

Your post #48 originally read:

Originally Posted by Username
So we're agreed?

If the passenger is not using a through service we check the routeing guide.
If the passenger is not using the shortest route we check the routeing guide

No. If a passenger is not using a through service AND is not using the shortest route we check the guide. This conclusion is reached by the use of the word 'or' in the quote above and also the flowchart on page 1 of the instructions of the guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username
So in this case the passenger is not using the shortest route, so we check the routeing guide.

You would, only if they were not on a through train.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username
Upon checking the routeing guide we find that when travelling from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay it is not valid to travel via Glenrothes with Thornton because it fails the fare check rule.

It is not valid because it is not a mapped route, nothing to do with fare check rule.

Then your post #50 originally read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username
So in this case the passenger is not using the shortest route, so we check the routeing guide.

You would, only if they were not on a through train.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username
Upon checking the routeing guide we find that when travelling from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay it is not valid to travel via Glenrothes with Thornton because it fails the fare check rule.

It is not valid because it is not a mapped route, nothing to do with fare check rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username
Soooooooo . . . . . you say it's not valid because it's not a mapped route? . . . . . but it's a through service and you say you don't check routeing on through services because they're always permitted routes even when not travelling in the shortest direction . . . . so it is valid even though it's not???

I never said it wasn't valid; that was you.

It's nothing to do with being a mapped route or not. You should never get to the stage of checking the maps until you have checked whether it's a through train, or the shortest distance (or within 3 miles of the shortest). It's valid because it's an advertised through train and is only valid for that reason.

Sorry but you did say it wasn't valid in your post #48. No point turning round now and saying you didn't and running off to edit your posts. That's just not sporting old boy.

 

[John @ home]

Well your conductor was wrong about one thing. No ticket from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay is valid via Glenrothes with Thornton, regardless of whether you stay on board or not. It's just not a permitted route.

This is irrelevant. If you are on an advertised through train there is no need to consult the routeing guide.

I agree with Mojo - a ticket from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay is valid on a through train via Glenrothes with Thornton. This is made clear on the first page of the Routeing Guide.

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

Those few sentences on the first page of the Guide give the passenger explicit permission that they don't need to bother reading the remaining 1400-odd pages. They will be travelling on a permitted route if using a Dalmeny - Dalgety Bay route Any Permitted ticket on a through train via Glenrothes with Thornton.

What does surprise me is the reason given by the inspector for rejecting scotsman's ticket.

the TTI ... claims that my ticket was only valid if I stayed on the train all the way to Dalgety Bay. However, are you not entitled to a break of journey on an open single?

If that accurately represents ScotRail's opinion, then they have changed their position since February 2010. Then the Routeing Guide introduced 15 new negative easements for journeys round the Fife circle. The relevant one for this journey is:

600034 Customers travelling from Dalmeny to Dalgety Bay, Aberdour, Burntisland, Kinghorn and Kirkcaldy may not travel via Glenrothes. This easement applies in both directions.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/easements.pdf

My first reaction was "Well, that's a lot of effort for very little result! Almost everything on the Fife circle is a through train Edinburgh - Edinburgh. These new restrictions will have minimal effect."

But a reply by DfT to a Freedom of Information request confirms that ScotRail did expect these new restrictions to apply on through trains. The relevant part of DfT's reply is:

Recently First Scotrail proposed changes to some local and middle distance journeys involving the "Fife Circle" route that have been approved by Transport Scotland. ATOC and Passenger Focus have approved these too. Formal approval by the Secretary of State will shortly be given and the changes incorporated into the NRG. Essentially these are negative easements.

... A negative easement however as in the Scotrail application prevents for example, a journey from Edinburgh to Rosyth (27 minutes and 14.75 miles apart) being made via Kirkcaldy which takes over 70 minutes and is a trip of 52 miles which the routeing guide would normally allow solely because it is a through train providing the journey. In this instance the Fife circle services are regular.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/changes_to_naitonal_rail_routein#incoming-65101

It is evident from this that, at the time they requested the negative easements, ScotRail thought that this would be an effective way of stopping passengers travelling the long way round the Fife circle. I don't think they are right. I cannot believe that any Court would decide that the plain statement on the first page "You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route." is over-ruled by an obscure negative easement 1,427 pages later.

This makes it interesting that the inspector's objection was to break of journey at Glenrothes, not to the use of a through train. I wonder when and why ScotRail's opinion changed?

 

[Username]

John@home

yeah, I actually agree with Mojo too (just don't tell him that)

I would quote your post but to be honest I don't seem to have much luck in that direction (must not be permitted )

What I will say in response to your post is I think the problem lies squarely in the training procedures for revenue staff and specifically with the 'glossing over' of the Routeing Guide. In fact they pay it little or no heed at all.

Scotrail conductors are now no longer even issued with a Ticket Examiners handbook, and those that were are now no longer required to carry one as part of their issued kit. They have no source of reference and must rely on what they remember of their training. As new developments occur . . . . well nothing really . . . . there are no updates for a handbook which is no longer supplied.

For all the fact that passengers are left to their own devices to divine the mysteries of ticket types and validities, routeings and easements, the revenue staff have little more information at their disposal.

But effectively, all staff at all times were instructed that tickets on the Fife circle were not valid if it required passing through a point for which a higher fare was due. Scotrail did not want passengers purchasing a single from Edinburgh to Rosyth for £4.20 and travelling to Glenrothes (a fare of £6.80) by way of Kirkcaldy. Thus has it always been so, even prior to the negative easements to which you refer.

As to the conductors objection vis-a-vis the break of journey as opposed to the use of a through train - this again I would put down to no information coming from Scotrail to it's frontline staff leaving the conductor to invent something which sounded plausible because he knew he wasn't supposed to allow it without really knowing why.

Of course he may have allowed it if the passenger had intended to go to Dalgety Bay in the first place and simply ended up on the outer versus the inner circle service in error. Who knows?

 

[Greenback]

I agree that the routeing guide is rarely understood corrctly by staff, or passengers, or TOC's. It's a very complex system, when I worked in the booking office I made an attempt to udnerstand it, but I don;t think I grapsed it as well as some of the experts on this forum!

There are two golden rules that all staff should be aware of though, and that's the break of journey being allowed on most non advance purchase tickets, and the fact that the NRG states that customers are always permitted tot ravel between any two points on an advertised through train.

I do have some sympathy with the Scotrail view. Services that run in a loop are very difficult when it comes to the NRG, as witnessed by the recent discussion regarding the Hounslow loop. personally, I don;t think that a ticket from Edinburgh to Rosyth SHOULD be valid all the way around the circle, but at the same time I agree with others on here that it is permitted under current the wording of the NRG.

I think that Scotrail needs to look at other measures to solve the problem, as I don;t think negative easements will overrule the information at the start of the NRG, and therefore they are unenforceable.

It's unfotunate that staff and passengers both become 'victims' of the battle between Scotrail and the NRG!

 

[Username]

I think that Scotrail needs to look at other measures to solve the problem, as I don;t think negative easements will overrule the information at the start of the NRG, and therefore they are unenforceable.

Purely for the sake of playing devils advocate here, and I'm not saying I personally disagree with your statements or sentiments . . . . but . . .

Surely the very purpose of easements is to overrule the information contained within the NRG, be it information at the very start or in the middle?

Admittedly the easements are generally there to permit journeys that strict adherence to the NRG would normally forbid, whereas the negative easements perform the opposite function to forbid journeys that would otherwise normally be permitted.
Why would one then be acceptable and the other not?

Of course you could argue that the statement about having no need to check permissions on through services means that you would proceed no further. Hence the negative easements (in the case of the Fife circle) would never be discovered as the assumption would be that any route is permitted.

But, you could also argue that for other services where routeing did have to be checked, and upon finding that a route was not permitted, why then check for easements to overrule this?

 

[Mojo]

I think that Scotrail needs to look at other measures to solve the problem, as I don;t think negative easements will overrule the information at the start of the NRG, and therefore they are unenforceable.

It wouldn't be that hard, all they need to do is change the route on the ticket from "Any permitted" to "Not xyz" to prevent people going the wrong way around a circular route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But, you could also argue that for other services where routeing did have to be checked, and upon finding that a route was not permitted, why then check for easements to overrule this?

In my opinion, because that is the next logical step.

In my opinion, if the answer to any one of these questions is ''yes,'' then it's a valid route. Obviously if you answer ''yes'' to any one of these, you don't need to carry on to the next one.

Step 1: Is route the shortest distance (or within 3 miles of)?
Step 2: Is train an advertised through service?
Step 3: Is it a mapped route?
Step 4: Are there easements allowing this route?

 

[MikeWh]

Surely the solution is to ensure that all tickets for journeys on the Fife circle either indicate a station that must be travelled through or one that must not be travelled through. Then the wrong route automatically becomes invalid even if it is a through train.

 

[Username]

It wouldn't be that hard, all they need to do is change the route on the ticket from "Any permitted" to "Not xyz" to prevent people going the wrong way around a circular route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion, because that is the next logical step.

In my opinion, if the answer to any one of these questions is ''yes,'' then it's a valid route. Obviously if you answer ''yes'' to any one of these, you don't need to carry on to the next one.

Step 1: Is route the shortest distance (or within 3 miles of)?
Step 2: Is train an advertised through service?
Step 3: Is it a mapped route?
Step 4: Are there easements allowing this route?

Granted. But knowing that negative easements exist which overrule the 'through service' stipulation would you accept those negative easements as readily as you would positive ones or dismiss them on the grounds that they contradict a basic tenet for consulting the NRG in the first place?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely the solution is to ensure that all tickets for journeys on the Fife circle either indicate a station that must be travelled through or one that must not be travelled through. Then the wrong route automatically becomes invalid even if it is a through train.

Common sense?
Has no place in the railway!!!
Get thee behind me satan

 

[Greenback]

The sort of things I was thinking of would include the Via so and so option, and simply not advertising the circle as a through service. In any case, I think they need to preserve the flexibility for those who are 'furthest away' from Edinburgh being able to travel in either direction.

On the subject of negative easements, my main objection is that they are unenforceable in law. They serve only to further complicate an already over complex, difficult and unwieldy guide, as do positive easements to an extent. The diffculty with both sorts of easements is that they are often known only by a few local and regular travellers. Not knowing about an easement will have little effect on an iregular traveller or visitor, but ignorance of a negative easement can have a big impact on the casual user or tourist.

It has to be said that the railway industry is not particularly customer focused. Many of the rules that are set out are ambiguous, contradictory and/or diffcult to find. Some rules and instructions revealed on here are not even in the public domain, they can only be found in 'The Manual'! A lack of tranparency and common sense indeed!

 

[Mojo]

Granted. But knowing that negative easements exist which overrule the 'through service' stipulation would you accept those negative easements as readily as you would positive ones or dismiss them on the grounds that they contradict a basic tenet for consulting the NRG in the first place?

My reasoning for not accepting negative easements is because in two separate places on the first page of the first section of the routeing guide it basically says that if you are travelling the shortest distance or on a through train you do not need to consult the routeing guide. Easements are contained in the routeing guide and thus if you do not need to read the guide you would never come across them.

However, you would accept positive easements as you would reach that section if the route you wanted to take was not a mapped route.