Excess Tickets

[SignalEngineer]

At London Euston station there is an Excess Fares ticket window inside the ticket barriers facing platform 11 (London Midland suburban Platforms 8-11). The signage still points to it but I've not checked recently to see if it is actually still open.

With it being inside the barriers is it's purpose for people who don't have a ticket all the way to Euston to be able to pay an excess to exit the barriers? If this is the case then there can be instances where you can excess upon arrival (and not get a penalty fare). Would this then proclude a LM ticket inspector on an inbound journey to Euston from issuing a penalty fare to a passenger who has a ticket from say Milton Keynes to Harrow and Wealdstone but decides to go all the way to Euston after boarding the train? (ie the inspector would excess the fare and NOT give a penalty fare)?

Does this case of allow excessing at the final destination only apply for certain routes or is it because Euston has barriers that it's allowed?

NOTE: I ask this question also in relation to the posting by Jenny121 'Penalty Fare advice - please help!'

 

[Greenback]

I don;t know the answer to your question re Harrow, as I don;t know the area and line in question. but at Reading there is also an excess fare window inside the barriers. The purpose is for people who have boarded at an unstaffed station to be able to pay their fares on arrival and get through the barriers.

The window has been there since barriers were installed, and I assume it was a condition of their installation. I doubt it was intended as a general excessing service, and I would guess that any PFI would not accept that someone had bought a ticket from Acton Main Line to Slough and decided to travel on to reading as a reason not to issue a PF!

 

[IainH]

Farnborough Stations - Peckham Rye Off Peak Return Route +Any Permitted with Gold Card discount is £16.50. Valid after 0930.

There is no Anytime Return to excess to, however the equivalent product would be 2 x SDS @ £8.30, totalling £16.60.

By rights, the excess should be 10p. However I am unsure if such an excess is possible.

Thanks for that Yorkie, but I'm still wondering...

First think I didn't say was it was the morning peak, so I'd first of all expect to pay to un-gold card the ticket, back to the full fare. But even then you say you are not sure. Sure the NRCoC gives a right to an excess, rather than discarding the outward half as I effectively did?

Section 12 : If a restriction applies and the ticket you
are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price
paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that
train for the journey shown on the ticket);

In this case assume it would be ... remove railcard discount, half ticket value and subtract that amount from full single fare?

Thanks!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The excess fares proceedure is set out so that you only pay what you should have paid if you bought that ticket in the first place (with the exception of Advance tickets).

Your peak travel to Peckham would cost £10.50 if you avoided London (£12.60 any permitted route), but the return would still be discounted at £6.95 (if you avoid London - £8.30 if you have any permitted). which would have been £17.45 (£20.90) so in theory your excess should be £0.95 (£4.40). Ofcourse, if you chose Any permitted one way and Not London the other you'd pay somewhere in the middle of those figures.

The problem is that the rules don't really cover this scenerio, they assume an appropriate return fare exists, which it doesn't. If we were being fair, the excess for the outward portion would be £0.95 (£4.40), but I don't think anyone can issue that excess because no rule exists to cover it.

In summary, there is no official right way to do it. Having bought a new ticket, I'd enquire to the company(s) you bought the tickets from about reclaiming the difference. If they failed to help I guess Passenger Focus is your next stop.

 

[IainH]

Excellent, I'll take that up with them. I guess if I'd bought the ticket in advance for the correct time I would have bought a single full fare out, and a single railcard fare back as you say (via London as nothing stops at Clapham Jct in the peak!) which is less than I paid in total. Will let you know how I get on. Thanks.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....With it being inside the barriers is it's purpose for people who don't have a ticket all the way to Euston to be able to pay an excess to exit the barriers? If this is the case then there can be instances where you can excess upon arrival (and not get a penalty fare). Would this then proclude a LM ticket inspector on an inbound journey to Euston from issuing a penalty fare to a passenger who has a ticket from say Milton Keynes to Harrow and Wealdstone but decides to go all the way to Euston after boarding the train? (ie the inspector would excess the fare and NOT give a penalty fare)?....

Penalty fares rules take precedence over excess fares rules, if you were travelling from a station within a penalty fares scheme and you travel beyond the destiination on the ticket you are liable to pay a penalty fare. If you are on board the train (that is part of a PF scheme and having boarded at a station within that scheme) when you realise you need to travel further than your ticket allows you should alight the train at a station (that the train stops at) before or at the destination printed and excess the ticket, or purchase a new one before continuing.

 

[reb0118]

John@home

yeah, I actually agree with Mojo too (just don't tell him that)

I would quote your post but to be honest I don't seem to have much luck in that direction (must not be permitted )

What I will say in response to your post is I think the problem lies squarely in the training procedures for revenue staff and specifically with the 'glossing over' of the Routing Guide. In fact they pay it little or no heed at all.

Scrotal conductors are now no longer even issued with a Ticket Examiners handbook, and those that were are now no longer required to carry one as part of their issued kit. They have no source of reference and must rely on what they remember of their training. As new developments occur . . . . well nothing really . . . . there are no updates for a handbook which is no longer supplied.

For all the fact that passengers are left to their own devices to divine the mysteries of ticket types and validation, routings and easements, the revenue staff have little more information at their disposal.

But effectively, all staff at all times were instructed that tickets on the Fife circle were not valid if it required passing through a point for which a higher fare was due. Scrotal did not want passengers purchasing a single from Edinburgh to Rosyth for £4.20 and travelling to Glenrothes (a fare of £6.80) by way of Kirkcaldy. Thus has it always been so, even prior to the negative easements to which you refer.

As to the conductors objection vis-a-vis the break of journey as opposed to the use of a through train - this again I would put down to no information coming from Scotrail to it's frontline staff leaving the conductor to invent something which sounded plausible because he knew he wasn't supposed to allow it without really knowing why.

Of course he may have allowed it if the passenger had intended to go to Dalgety Bay in the first place and simply ended up on the outer versus the inner circle service in error. Who knows?

I am a conductor who regularly works the Fife Circle. Tickets on the Fife Circle are valid via any route however break of journey is not valid at an intermediate station where a higher fare applies. This information was given to us in written form and may still be on our commercial notice board - the vast majority of staff don't just make up rules. In practice however we can't stop you alighting but you may be excessed when you re-board at a station where a higher fare applies.

Another point. Are they through trains? I think they are but Network Rail shows Fife Circles as Glenrothes terminators on the departure boards at the Waverley whereas ScotRail show them as through services to Edinburgh/Newcraighall on-board the train.

 

[clagmonster]

I agree with the hairy handed fool with travelling over distance on a penalty fare train having boarded at a penalty fare station, whether it is the original intention or otherwise. This sort of case is clearly covered in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:
"18. If you travel further than a ticket allows
If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having
joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. The relevant parts
of Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Condition 2 then states:
"If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey."

We are in a penalty fare train boarding at a penalty fare station, so it is appropriate to check condition 4:
"4. Penalty Fares
Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
...
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10,
11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply"
In this case, the circumstances set out in condition 18 apply, so a penalty fare may be charged.
The only reference to excess fares in any part of the contract is, to the best of my knowledge contained in the conditions of carriage so there is no argument in the excess fares rules.

Reb, it is interesting to see the Scotrail interpretation of the break of journey rules and in particular conditions 13 and 16. As I have posted elsewhere, I do not agree with this interpretation but I do understand it. What I personally think Scotrail should do, short of getting the conditions of carriage changed, is make all current Fife Circle fares route 'not Glenrothes' or similar then introduce route any permitted fares for flows Newcraighall-Inverkeithing inclusive to each Fife Circle station priced at the same price as a ticket to Glenrothes. Is there anyone in the company who this could be directed to? For the record, I think that similar should be done on the Hounslow loop about which we have had similar discussions.

Also, may I ask as to the official position regarding use of tickets such as Edinburgh-Haymarket and Edinburgh-Inverkeithing all the way around the loop, as whilst I see this as morally wrong it could be argued that this is valid as you are travelling on a through train.

As to your question about whether these trains are through trains, the definition of a through train in the conditions of carriage is:
"For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."
I believe that the Fife Circle trains fit this definition and I believe they are advertised as such in the National Rail timetable. I believe it is neccessary to maintain this status as it benifits passengers at the furthest out stations on the loop such as Lochgelly.

 

[reb0118]

Lots of interesting points re the Fife Circle.

Regarding introducing routing restrictions onto tickets I don't think this would work as on a Sunday for example services are limited and you would futher penalise passengers by either making them wait even longer for a "shorter" service or pay more for the "longer" service just because there is a limited service.

I don't think an Edinburgh to Haymarket or any station up to & including Inverkeithing is valid round the Circle as you are in fact passing through your destination to reach the same destination. However what do you think about these jouneys:-

1) A passenger boards 2G13 at South Gyle (17:18 dep) with a SDS to Dalmeny. The train does not call at Dalmeny on its outward journey but does on the inward. The train is however advertised as a through South Gyle to Dalmeny service and there is no route restiction printed on the ticket issued. Is this a valid journey?

2) A passenger boards a Fife Circle service at Haymarket with a Haymaket to Edinburgh ticket and travels via Glenrothes. Valid?


In my opinion in most situations (this is the railway so there will be exceptions) you would require an Edinburgh to Rosyth Halt or Dalgety Bay return to travel the full "Circle"

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Reb, it is interesting to see the Scotrail interpretation of the break of journey rules and in particular conditions 13 and 16. As I have posted elsewhere, I do not agree with this interpretation but I do understand it. What I personally think Scotrail should do, short of getting the conditions of carriage changed, is make all current Fife Circle fares route 'not Glenrothes' or similar then introduce route any permitted fares for flows Newcraighall-Inverkeithing inclusive to each Fife Circle station priced at the same price as a ticket to Glenrothes. Is there anyone in the company who this could be directed to? For the record, I think that similar should be done on the Hounslow loop about which we have had similar discussions....

Thameslink had a ticket system that was similar on the Sutton (Surrey) loop line. Originally trains were timetabled as a loop service and noted as such in their 'guide to train services'.

A few years into the franchise, the services were advertised as Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon and Sutton to Luton via Carshalton, and, Luton to Wimbledon via Sutton and Wimbledon to Luton via Haydons Road. The trains still continued round the loop as they had before, but it was no longer noted in the timetable.

Tickets were also altered with stations between Sutton and Wimbledon having two routeings, 'rte Any Permitted' and 'rte Wimbledon', the latter being marginally cheaper, a situation that remains today.

....Also, may I ask as to the official position regarding use of tickets such as Edinburgh-Haymarket and Edinburgh-Inverkeithing all the way around the loop, as whilst I see this as morally wrong it could be argued that this is valid as you are travelling on a through train....

I suspect it would be seen as going over-distance if the train is timetabled to stop there the first time through, as you have reached your destination once already and that is as far as the TOC is contracted to carry you. If however the train was not sheduled to stop there the first time through, I would think it would be valid.

 

[ess]

what's the significance of a loop service? ta

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A ticket is always valid on a train that stops at the origin and destination of the ticket, regardless of the route it takes.

So, if the Edinburgh-Kirkcaldy-Edinburgh train is advertised as taking a circular route going via Dalgety Bay to Kirkcaldy and via Rosyth on the way back Edinburgh, a ticket between Dalgety Bay and Rosyth would automatically be valid via Inverkeithing (where the routes diverge - shortest route) and via Kirkcaldy (in the opposite direction - direct train).

If the train returned via Dalgety Bay instead. The ticket would only be automatically valid via Inverkeithing (shortest route) and not via Kirkcaldy (it is not a direct service).