Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?

[jimm]

The 170s will be improved with the extension of some to three coaches after EMR take on the various 170/171s, and I think that's enough of a solution for now.

Not sure may long-suffering passengers on the Birmingham-Cardiff route in particular would agree with that.

It may improve conditions on the services currently diagrammed for two-car 170s that can go up to three-cars but much of the time all that will means is that passengers will have a better chance of getting a seat.

It will not do a thing to address the fundamental need to provide something for that route with rather more than 180 seats per train - and a four car 22x is not that something.

 

[hello]

XC themselves need the Voyagers for the Nottingham-Birmingham-Cardiff services. The use of 2 and 3 car DMUs on those services is ridiculous.

Doesn’t a 3 car 170 have more seats than a 4 car 220?

 

[greatvoyager]

Doesn’t a 3 car 170 have more seats than a 4 car 220?

I believe its very similar, but not sure of exact numbers though.

 

[coradiafan2000]

A four coach Voyager isn't going to be an improvement on a three coach 170 even if you spend money converting the First Class to Standard (given the amount of space taken up by "crumple zones" and the poor internal layout of Voyagers) - there's not much need for 125mph on the ex-Central Trains diagrams either - plus much slower unloading etc due to the Voyager doors.

It keeps getting suggested as a solution, and no doubt it will still be suggested in future but it seems to offer little benefit to passengers (unless you are throwing five coach Voyagers at the route, but there are plenty of Voyager diagrams that only get four coaches at the moment, so it seems that they should be the ones that get any "spare" five coach Voyagers, instead of putting them on slower routes.

The 170s will be improved with the extension of some to three coaches after EMR take on the various 170/171s, and I think that's enough of a solution for now.

From my experience, even three cars is sometimes inadequate on those services. What they need to be doing is doubling up more regularly to make 4 and 6 car sets. I'd like to see Voyagers working the services simply because I find them better to travel on than a 170. The Turbostars are perfectly fine if you're only travelling an hour, or maybe two, but if you're going all the way from Cardiff to Nottingham, like I've done quite a bit in the past, I find myself wishing I was on a Voyager.

That being said, as has been mentioned multiple times previously, the best place they can go is XC to boost capacity on more long distance services. Maybe if and when XC acquire new stock we could see the Voyagers on the Cardiff- Nottingham and Birmingham--Stansted routes.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Not sure may long-suffering passengers on the Birmingham-Cardiff route in particular would agree with that.

I certainly wouldn't. I like 170s, don't get me wrong, but I'm tired of Cardiff getting the runt of XCs fleet.

 

[JamesT]

Even if a Voyager isn’t a great advance on a three car 170, presumably the advantage is it frees up said 170 to go elsewhere could make use of them, including other franchises? XC might demand some extra subsidy to cover the additional cost of running Voyagers on those routes, but potentially the DfT might see it as a reasonable trade if they can then claim they’re expanding capacity or allowed hated old stock to be replaced?

 

[JonathanH]

the DfT might see it as a reasonable trade if they can then claim they’re expanding capacity or allowed hat

Does the DfT have an interest in either of those things? Politicians might but civil servants probably aren't concerned at all. Their remit is to limit the cost of the railway to the taxpayer.

 

[greatvoyager]

From my experience, even three cars is sometimes inadequate on those services. What they need to be doing is doubling up more regularly to make 4 and 6 car sets. I'd like to see Voyagers working the services simply because I find them better to travel on than a 170. The Turbostars are perfectly fine if you're only travelling an hour, or maybe two, but if you're going all the way from Cardiff to Nottingham, like I've done quite a bit in the past, I find myself wishing I was on a Voyager.

That being said, as has been mentioned multiple times previously, the best place they can go is XC to boost capacity on more long distance services. Maybe if and when XC acquire new stock we could see the Voyagers on the Cardiff- Nottingham and Birmingham--Stansted routes.

I think its a good idea to use the spare 221s on XC routes, but I think that the secondary 170'routes will probably get newer trains first, as they are older than Voyagers.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I think its a good idea to use the spare 221s on XC routes, but I think that the secondary 170'routes will probably get newer trains first, as they are older than Voyagers.

Only by a couple of years. I don't think it's enough of a gap in age to have any influence on any decisions for their future.

 

[greatvoyager]

Only by a couple of years. I don't think it's enough of a gap in age to have any influence on any decisions for their future.

The main difference is that there is a need for other operators to use 170s (such as Chiltern), yet the 22x future seems to be defined by XC. I don't know another operator that could use them, apart from the Virgin Open Access, which would be silly as the whole route they are submitting for is electrified.

 

[Energy]

The voyagers going to Chiltern has been suggested before, sending the 221s could work but with cheaper leasing it seems likely that Chiltern would just order new stock. Unlike Northern, Chiltern do have the money for new stock, their trains certainly aren't quiet.

 

[greatvoyager]

The voyagers going to Chiltern has been suggested before, sending the 221s could work but with cheaper leasing it seems likely that Chiltern would just order new stock. Unlike Northern, Chiltern do have the money for new stock, their trains certainly aren't quiet.

I was referring to 170s going to Chiltern.

 

[greatvoyager]

Wonder if they will allow 221s to work the Virgin Open Access service if its approved.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm hoping that we will see them used to increase capacity as opposed to them being used for replacement of another fleet.

 

[greatvoyager]

As the Avanti 221s have a 3 year maintenance contract until December 2022, I assume that's the earliest possible date they will be available.

 

[greatvoyager]

Gotta be going to XC surely? Fully compatible (well once they take out the tilt mechanisms anyway) with the existing stock and signed by the relevant train crew who are all experienced in their use. A quick spot of interior work to bring them in line with the XC Voyagers (take out the shop for instance) and boom. An extra twenty sets or put another way an extra 100 vehicles which can be used almost immediately with a franchise that is crying out for extra capacity.

Logic should be that this happens, at least I really hope so.

 

[greatvoyager]

If the AT300s are delivered late, will there be a problem with cascading the 221s or are they going to plan for it?

 

[greatvoyager]

The voyagers going to Chiltern has been suggested before, sending the 221s could work but with cheaper leasing it seems likely that Chiltern would just order new stock. Unlike Northern, Chiltern do have the money for new stock, their trains certainly aren't quiet.

I wonder if the Avanti Voyagers will have a higher leasing price than the CrossCountry ones.

 

[krus_aragon]

If the AT300s are delivered late, will there be a problem with cascading the 221s or are they going to plan for it?

Remember that there's no official (public) plan to cascade the 221s at all yet.

 

[greatvoyager]

Remember that there's no official (public) plan to cascade the 221s at all yet.

I know but hypothetically speaking if they are cascaded anywhere, will lessons be taken from previous situations where stock has been delivered late, and an operator has to make do with older stock whilst the other operator waits for the stock to transfer?

 

[krus_aragon]

I know but hypothetically speaking if they are cascaded anywhere, will lessons be taken from previous situations where stock has been delivered late, and an operator has to make do with older stock whilst the other operator waits for the stock to transfer?

Without wishing to sound dismissive, that will depend on the hypothetical contracts signed between the relevant bodies, as well as the confidential contents of the existing contract Avanti have with the current owner (Beacon Rail).

 

[greatvoyager]

Without wishing to sound dismissive, that will depend on the hypothetical contracts signed between the relevant bodies, as well as the confidential contents of the existing contract Avanti have with the current owner (Beacon Rail).

Fair enough.

 

[greatvoyager]

Just hope that whatever happens with these units, whether cascade to XC or not, there are no problems encountered.

 

[greatvoyager]

Without wishing to sound dismissive, that will depend on the hypothetical contracts signed between the relevant bodies, as well as the confidential contents of the existing contract Avanti have with the current owner (Beacon Rail).

It would be interesting to see how this goes.

 

[Mogz]

Hopefully utilised to lengthen existing XC services! It will be nice to have a buffet and a coach with plenty of table seats in standard.

At its most basic, they could simply be used to double up some more of the most crowded XC services, or even enable splitting eg 9 coaches (5+4) Bournemouth to Manchester AND Liverpool, splitting/joining at Stafford?

 

[DavidGrain]

Hopefully utilised to lengthen existing XC services! It will be nice to have a buffet and a coach with plenty of table seats in standard.

At its most basic, they could simply be used to double up some more of the most crowded XC services, or even enable splitting eg 9 coaches (5+4) Bournemouth to Manchester AND Liverpool, splitting/joining at Stafford?

Splitting and joining can be done only at places where staff are based and I doubt if XC have staff at Stafford. For XC to split and join at Birmingham would I think place too much strain on the lines in and out of Birmingham.

 

[greatvoyager]

Splitting and joining can be done only at places where staff are based and I doubt if XC have staff at Stafford. For XC to split and join at Birmingham would I think place too much strain on the lines in and out of Birmingham.

Very true.

 

[greatvoyager]

Hopefully utilised to lengthen existing XC services! It will be nice to have a buffet and a coach with plenty of table seats in standard.

At its most basic, they could simply be used to double up some more of the most crowded XC services, or even enable splitting eg 9 coaches (5+4) Bournemouth to Manchester AND Liverpool, splitting/joining at Stafford?

If XC get the remaining 221s from Avanti, I'd expect they'll have the shop removed and the normal seating re-installed to ensure they match the rest of the fleet.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I know TfW have all their orders in for the various different new trains, but the Voyagers would have been a good addition on Llandudno to Manchester's or Holyhead to Cardiff's.

 

[greatvoyager]

I know TfW have all their orders in for the various different new trains, but the Voyagers would have been a good addition on Llandudno to Manchester's or Holyhead to Cardiff's.

They could do.