ex SE class 508s to Southern?

[387star]

Was informed today that Southern is likely to be using the 508s on the Southampton/Portsmouth Coastway services which is news to me.

They would be fitted with toilets.

This may just be unfounded rumour. Does anyone know about these plans? Apparently this story has been floating around for some time so may well not amount to anything.

 

[swt_passenger]

I vote for it being complete rubbish.

Someone's probably just been wondering why Southern took on the 313s when the 508s could have been used instead, but that fails to account for the timeline.

The 508s were still on lease with Southeastern until a few weeks ago, whereas the 313s were planned to be replaced on LO by 378s a couple of years back. That's why SN took on the 313s, and having now completely refurbished them the chances of using 508s instead has to be very unlikely...

 

[NSE]

I second that for all the same reasons

 

[387star]

They meant in addition to 313s and this was said by someone who works for Southern

 

[MidnightFlyer]

How would they supplement them though? What is the need for them?

 

[387star]

Well it may be instead of new build stock with more 377s not on Victoria runs being transferred to London. I thought they were getting confused with 313s for the same was initially said about them but they (and a group of staff) were adamant 508s and that this has been circulating for some time and is well known

 

[O L Leigh]

Never rely on staff to be well-informed with regard to such matters.

We had them all when the "new" StanEx units were announced. According to the rumour mill we could have been getting anything from the GE's Cl360s, Cl321s cascaded from LM or Cl375s from SET, but it certainly wouldn't have been anything brand new.

O L Leigh

 

[paul1609]

Never rely on staff to be well-informed with regard to such matters.

We had them all when the "new" StanEx units were announced. According to the rumour mill we could have been getting anything from the GE's Cl360s, Cl321s cascaded from LM or Cl375s from SET, but it certainly wouldn't have been anything brand new.

O L Leigh

I notice that first class accomodation is no longer being advertised on the brighton to Southampton service.
Its sad that Southern which started as such a promising franchise is going this way and I can only hope that govia lose this and the Southeastern franchise in 2015. What next for the coastway? scrapped pacers from the north.

 

[yorksrob]

Rather like when the CIG's and VEP's were downgraded into COP's and VOP's.

 

[swt_passenger]

I notice that first class accomodation is no longer being advertised on the brighton to Southampton service.

It is still shown in the online timetable from Sunday, I'll try and find a paper one tomorrow and see what it shows...

 

[ushawk]

I notice that first class accomodation is no longer being advertised on the brighton to Southampton service.
Its sad that Southern which started as such a promising franchise is going this way and I can only hope that govia lose this and the Southeastern franchise in 2015. What next for the coastway? scrapped pacers from the north.

Don't see why the 313's get such a hard press down here, they are used on routes where the majority of journeys are short so there isn't really need for toilets. They have had a decent refresh and have more capacity than the 3 car 377's. Also I don't really think 1st Class between Brighton and Southampton is used that much anyway.

With regards to Govia losing the Southern and Southeastern franchises, I haven't got a problem with them keeping Southern and id prefer them to keep it when the franchise is up as they aren't really doing any major things wrong. Southeastern on the other hand, might be good to see someone else run that, maybe with 1 uniform livery for trains

 

[NSE]

I notice that first class accomodation is no longer being advertised on the brighton to Southampton service.
Its sad that Southern which started as such a promising franchise is going this way and I can only hope that govia lose this and the Southeastern franchise in 2015. What next for the coastway? scrapped pacers from the north.

I disagree, while they aren't great on the Brighton services beyond Littlehampton, they're perfectly fine for services such as the Hove and Bognor to Littlehampton shuttles. I rode the FCC ones the other week, and was plesently surprised as to how comfy they were. I also hear Southern's refurb is just as good.
They've also added the 442's to the Brighton route, which while they might be better suited for a longer run, Southern have pulled them out of storage and given them a new lease of life. I'd quite like them to be put in Southern colours.
Overall I quite like Southern.

 

[MCR247]

I notice that first class accomodation is no longer being advertised on the brighton to Southampton service.
Its sad that Southern which started as such a promising franchise is going this way and I can only hope that govia lose this and the Southeastern franchise in 2015. What next for the coastway? scrapped pacers from the north.

So what do you expect different from the next franchise holder?!

 

[Lrd]

I notice that first class accomodation is no longer being advertised on the brighton to Southampton service.]

I saw somewhere a little while a go that they were planning on running 313's on this route.

I think one has only ever made it as far as Southampton in service.

 

[paul1609]

Don't see why the 313's get such a hard press down here, they are used on routes where the majority of journeys are short so there isn't really need for toilets. They have had a decent refresh and have more capacity than the 3 car 377's. Also I don't really think 1st Class between Brighton and Southampton is used that much anyway.

With regards to Govia losing the Southern and Southeastern franchises, I haven't got a problem with them keeping Southern and id prefer them to keep it when the franchise is up as they aren't really doing any major things wrong. Southeastern on the other hand, might be good to see someone else run that, maybe with 1 uniform livery for trains

I take it you never have to rely on one to get to work. They are TOTALLY UNSUITABLE for Brighton to Portsmouth and Southampton services which should be regional express services. Can you imagine First introducing trains with no toilets on on Trans Pennine Express?
Im sorry Govia have lied to commuters long enough they must go asap

 

[NSE]

I also believe the plan was for this only to be on a few occasional off peak diagrams so not all 313 operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I take it you never have to rely on one to get to work. They are TOTALLY UNSUITABLE for Brighton to Portsmouth and Southampton services which should be regional express services. Can you imagine First introducing trains with no toilets on on Trans Pennine Express?
Im sorry Govia have lied to commuters long enough they must go asap

Not really, they run Moorgate-Letchworth which is a similar distance. You can always get a London train from Soton or Pompey and change at Barnham for a 377 to Brighton, probably be standing, but not a 313. Sides, when I do travel at Rush hour, the toilet is never accesable due to over crowding (All stock/operators fall foul of this one) and 313's provide more seats than the 3 car 377's, so I fail to see the argument here to argue for 377s.

 

[ushawk]

I do use them, everyday to and from London and havent had any problems with them and when disruption has occurred staff have been brilliant and it was always outside their control - Southern have pointed out that most of the journeys made aren't the full length of the route, I am a bit unsure about whether they should actually use them as far as Southampton though, as that is about an hour and 45 minutes, but the 313's are just about fine for Portsmouth.

Also, how have Govia been lying to commuters ? I think they are improving if anything (reliability seems better and the information on the website is improving).

 

[swt_passenger]

I saw somewhere a little while a go that they were planning on running 313's on this route.

I think one has only ever made it as far as Southampton in service.

I spotted it a month or two back in a track access application, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd change the whole service, but...

I just used their 'create your own timetable' for next week, and it shows First available in the peaks, but not in the middle of the day - but it's different in the two directions; basically all eastbound ex Southampton have first class! :roll: Weird eh...

 

[YorkshireBear]

I take it you never have to rely on one to get to work. They are TOTALLY UNSUITABLE for Brighton to Portsmouth and Southampton services which should be regional express services. Can you imagine First introducing trains with no toilets on on Trans Pennine Express?
Im sorry Govia have lied to commuters long enough they must go asap

Can i imagine first introducting toiletless trains? what on some of there 3 hour routes? no i cant.... portsmouth brighton is hour and a half max?

 

[ushawk]

I just used their 'create your own timetable' for next week, and it shows First available in the peaks, but not in the middle of the day - but it's different in the two directions; basically all eastbound ex Southampton have first class! :roll: Weird eh...

Same with the South Croydon to Milton Keynes service, 1st class is avaliable for use to MK, but there isnt any on the return - i always thought this was classed as a Southern Metro service so im surprised it even has 1st class in 1 direction.

 

[tbtc]

So what do you expect different from the next franchise holder?!

I don't want to speak on Paul's behalf, but I'm not sure what SN could realistically do differently.

Resources are being moved to the London routes (for various reasons, both political and actual demand), they've got the 313s to cover for this, they aren't getting the cascaded Thameslink 377s as soon as they'd like so they are supposedly ordering some additional EMUs to cover.

 

[466.networkers]

I'd prefer the 6 SET refurbished Class 508/2s to stay with Southeastern so they can be used on the branch lines in the leaf fall and winter periods to save 465s and 466s being used making London trains short formed.

Am I being too sensible here?

 

[northwichcat]

I take it you never have to rely on one to get to work. They are TOTALLY UNSUITABLE for Brighton to Portsmouth and Southampton services which should be regional express services. Can you imagine First introducing trains with no toilets on on Trans Pennine Express?
Im sorry Govia have lied to commuters long enough they must go asap

The following needs to be taken in to consideration:
* How many stations en route do not have toilet facilities?
* What is the total journey time?
* What is the frequency of service?

You seem to be claiming 90 minute journey time deserves a regional express train. In the Northern area a 90 minute journey time is usually a Pacer or a 150. Blackpool to Manchester Airport is an exception and TPE journey times can be up to 4 hours.

 

[tbtc]

In the Northern area a 90 minute journey time is usually a Pacer or a 150

A bit of an exaggeration, given there are almost a hundred 155/156/158s with Northern (only slightly fewer than the combined number of Northern Pacers).

There are certainly a few long Northern routes with a fair few Pacers/150s (Morcambe - Lancaster, the Whitby branch, the Penistone line, Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds, Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln, Sheffield - New Mills - Manchester...), but there are faster "end to end" alternative routes in certain cases.

 

[northwichcat]

A bit of an exaggeration, given there are almost a hundred 155/156/158s with Northern (only slightly fewer than the combined number of Northern Pacers).

I did say Pacer or 150. Northern now have 162 units fitting that description. The problem with the 155s, 156s and 158s is what routes they are on is mainly down to PTEs, so the routes that aren't in PTE areas or in a PTE area but not a priority route usually finish up with Pacers or 150s as the main traction.

but there are faster "end to end" alternative routes in certain cases.

Isn't that the argument being given against paul1609's claim that his 90 minute journey should be seen as a regional express service?

 

[swt_passenger]

The facts are that the Brighton - Portsmouth service is much nearer to an all (or most) stations stopper, than a regional express.

So it gets suitable stock for what it is, not for what people want it to be...

 

[sprinterguy]

There are certainly a few long Northern routes with a fair few Pacers/150s (Morcambe - Lancaster, the Whitby branch, the Penistone line, Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds, Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln, Sheffield - New Mills - Manchester...), but there are faster "end to end" alternative routes in certain cases.

The Whitby branch is mainly 156s these days, unless something has changed recently.

 

[tbtc]

I did say Pacer or 150. Northern now have 162 units fitting that description. The problem with the 155s, 156s and 158s is what routes they are on is mainly down to PTEs, so the routes that aren't in PTE areas or in a PTE area but not a priority route usually finish up with Pacers or 150s as the main traction

Yes, but you said that "In the Northern area a 90 minute journey time is usually a Pacer or a 150" (as in "more often than not")...

There are a lot of Pacers/150s, there are a few services with 90 minute journeys, but I'd suggest that they are in a minority on those services (and that a few of these services have a faster "end to end" equivalent).

The Whitby branch is mainly 156s these days, unless something has changed recently.

I knew there were 156s for school capacity, didn't realise that the majority were now 156s though, cheers

 

[paul1609]

I also believe the plan was for this only to be on a few occasional off peak diagrams so not all 313 operation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not really, they run Moorgate-Letchworth which is a similar distance. You can always get a London train from Soton or Pompey and change at Barnham for a 377 to Brighton, probably be standing, but not a 313. Sides, when I do travel at Rush hour, the toilet is never accesable due to over crowding (All stock/operators fall foul of this one) and 313's provide more seats than the 3 car 377's, so I fail to see the argument here to argue for 377s.

Thats not true Im afraid.Southampton to Brighton is around 65 miles or 1 hour 45 mins, from Kings Cross that would take you to Huntingdon in mileage terms or Doncaster in journey time which is perhaps the more relevant factor in deciding the provision of toilets. Even Brighton to Portsmouth is the equivalent of Royston or way past Ely in time.
I wouldnt have a problem with Southern using 313s on services to West Worthing or Seaford but despite what Southern Claim there are an awful lot of passengers (many of them elderly) using the services long distance. This is particularly true of the Southampton service. I reckon a third of the passengers on Southbound Cardiff to Portsmouth services on average alight at Fareham to continue along the coast,
Im afraid I stick by my line that they are TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE on these services/

 

[507 001]

They can take the knackered 508's if they want, and we'll have their shiny nice 313's on ME