Everything wrong with Pacers

[Harbornite]

144s are basically 143s but some have a third car bogged in.

Plus they were based of a Walter Alexander Bus body rsther than th Leyland National design of the 142s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've not got a problem with Pacers as such, but I don't really think they should form the backbone of intercity stopper services - Sheffield-Leeds, Sheffield-Huddersfield and Sheffield-Manchester and I really don't think use of old bus seats from the 1970s has a place in modern transport. I'd be happy to see them retained (with a refurb) on short haul inner city services, but that's all.

Having travelled earlier today on a new state of the art Stagecoach Manchester "16 reg" double decker bus with excellent seats, I despair when I hear of the Pacer old-style 1970s bus seats being retained on inner city services, even with a refurb.

 

[Haydn1971]

Haha, not the seats, the carriage

 

[Rapidash]

Speak for yourself! as a person (good may be overselling myself ) from southish Devon, I frequently use them, they offer a higher capacity and more frequent trains. show me a way Exmouth could get 2tph without them, most of the key stations along the line get 2 tph in each direction, which is a great advantage! (my local doesn't but that's a political decision) they will be a loss in my opinion, and I hope that the service doesn't get reduced or reverted to a single unit as a result of their retirement!

I'm not sure how two people using the same trains on the same route can have such different ideas Due to my...varied shift work, I use them at many different times of day - and the one consistently obvious thing with the Pacers, especially when running solo is that they are waaaaayyy too small for the numbers using the Devon Metro, especially along the seawall. For a service that lasts over an hour, with frequent stops, they really struggle, even when reinforced.

Sprinters are significantly more adept for the area.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Bullcrap isn't it, why should we bother making train travel more accessible for the disabled? :roll:

I never said that, yes I agree that transport should be more accessible to the disabled, but not at the cost of losing tons of rail stock and having to completely re-engineer the rail system as we know it to please a few who who can't use their legs.. The regulations should only apply to newly built trains IMO.

On a serious note, your complaint is stupid and the legislation regards DDA- compliant toilets, which are lacking in all the 142s and 143s and all but one of the 144s.

I don't understand how it's the Pacers that don't have the required facilities to meet DDA regs yet other trains such as Sprinters and Turbostars pass with flying colours. Other trains have toilets just as small as the Pacers so I don't see how another trains toilets are anymore accessible.

And anyway I don't think it would be that hard to refurbish the Pacers - the success with the modified 144e proved that. Just install a destination board (ex merseyrail units have this already so no probs there), replace the old bus seats, and install new buttons (lower down) and there you have a new looking train.

150s are pretty basic but at least they have bogies.

Bogies, errrrrr.. No wonder they're so grubby..... Who'd want to travel on a train with bogies???

Try telling that to the good people of South Devon and South Wales! People can pick on Pacers (especially the 142s) as much as they want because they are crap trains. Good riddance.

In you're opinion they are.

By the way, aren't you aware of the recent orders for new DMUs and EMUs from CAF for Northern services and the orders for CAF LHCS and Hitachi bi modes for TPE?

You mean that D Stock replacement they were talking about.? Converting an old London Underground train to Diesel...? Yes I knew about that already. I'm not convinced though. Top speed only 60 mph but they claim faster acceleration will make up for it. May be good for an urban city route with frequent stops and low speed limits but not much else..


And are you also aware of the recent RBE research development project from the PPS to preserve and refurbish 14X Trains based on the orders of the T.O.R.I.E.S and the DFT on the basis of lack of capacity in order to save M.O.N.E.Y for NRN??

 

[Harbornite]

You mean that D Stock replacement they were talking about.? Converting an old London Underground train to Diesel...? Yes I knew about that already. I'm not convinced though. Top speed only 60 mph but they claim faster acceleration will make up for it. May be good for an urban city route with frequent stops and low speed limits but not much else..


And are you also aware of the recent RBE research development project from the PPS to preserve and refurbish 14X Trains based on the orders of the T.O.R.I.E.S and the DFT on the basis of lack of capacity in order to save M.O.N.E.Y for NRN??

Looks like the answer is no... :roll:

I'll help you out, seeing as you don't know what you're talking about...

http://bfy.tw/7VlJ

http://bfy.tw/7VlL


You can stop playing the "we don't get any new trains in the north" tune, it's dull. It's hard to tell if your post was serious, although you do seem genuinely ignorant so it wouldn't surpise me if you hadn't heard about these new rolling stock orders.

Regarding the class 230, they are not an EMU and there's only one unit which will eventually be tested on the Coventry- Nuneaton line. No one has ordered any yet and they aren't being built by CAF.

 

[CosherB]

As you might guess by my username and photo they are one of my favourite trains..

There's nothing wrong with Pacers.

It's all hype by the media and politicians to get rid of them just because of this stupid "disability discrimination act" which comes into effect in 2020 which basically says they can't run because they have a step entrance. Well I say bollocks to that! If you're in a wheelchair you still need a ramp to board other trains so what gives??

One of the biggest problems with the pacer has been the bouncing over joined track however on many routes the track has been improved leading to a much better ride.

People tend to pick on the Pacer because it is one of the cheapest, oldest running stock on the network.

But in reality it's about the same standard as a Class 150. Same speed, same acceleration, both screech when stopping at stations and when going round bends.

If you're going to pick on Pacers then pick on the 150's as well.

The Class 142's vary are all different. All have different personalities and some are a lot better than others. People go on one of the "bad" ones on a poorly maintained route and then stick thier nose up at the rest of them.

They can be bad in the Autumn when leaves cause wheelslip which is a big problem for Pacers. It causes big problems with acceleration and braking, with the train struggling to get going and the deafening screeching as the driver attempts to stop at the station. But most of the time they're fine.

Sure the bus seats on many units are very dated and those ones could do with a refurb..

I do wish so many people would stop picking on Pacers, sure they might not be the best trains in the world but they do thier job well providing a service for the North. Yes it may be unfair that the South always gets brand spanking new super fast air conditioned emu's and the North gets the cast-offs but thats the way it is and probably the way it always with be I'm afraid.

This really is the summer silly season, isn't it? :roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

I never said that, yes I agree that transport should be more accessible to the disabled, but not at the cost of losing tons of rail stock and having to completely re-engineer the rail system as we know it to please a few who who can't use their legs.. The regulations should only apply to newly built trains IMO.

I can't wait for the kids to go back to school.

 

[J-2739]

I never said that, yes I agree that transport should be more accessible to the disabled, but not at the cost of losing tons of rail stock and having to completely re-engineer the rail system as we know it to please a few who who can't use their legs.. The regulations should only apply to newly built trains IMO.

Some older rolling stock is going to last past the deadline, so necessary to update them. Your just discriminating at this point.

I don't understand how it's the Pacers that don't have the required facilities to meet DDA regs yet other trains such as Sprinters and Turbostars pass with flying colours. Other trains have toilets just as small as the Pacers so I don't see how another trains toilets are anymore accessible.

Pacers literally has an extra step to get onto the train. Sprinters and Turbos don't.

And anyway I don't think it would be that hard to refurbish the Pacers - the success with the modified 144e proved that. Just install a destination board (ex merseyrail units have this already so no probs there), replace the old bus seats, and install new buttons (lower down) and there you have a new looking train.

That depends of if Porterbrook wants to continue doing that. Due to the narrowing market for that, I doubt it.

Bogies, errrrrr.. No wonder they're so grubby..... Who'd want to travel on a train with bogies???

You clearly have no idea what a bogie is.

In you're opinion they are.

Of course it's an opinion. But admit it, Pacers in their basic state are not sustainable for the future.

You mean that D Stock replacement they were talking about.? Converting an old London Underground train to Diesel...? Yes I knew about that already. I'm not convinced though. Top speed only 60 mph but they claim faster acceleration will make up for it. May be good for an urban city route with frequent stops and low speed limits but not much else..

He made no mention of that in his OP, but since mention that, I might as well explain it to you. The diesel D Stock are meant as a stop gap solution due to slowed electrification so not permanent.

And are you also aware of the recent RBE research development project from the PPS to preserve and refurbish 14X Trains based on the orders of the T.O.R.I.E.S and the DFT on the basis of lack of capacity in order to save M.O.N.E.Y for NRN??

Where did you get that from? That sounds outdated to me.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't understand how it's the Pacers that don't have the required facilities to meet DDA regs yet other trains such as Sprinters and Turbostars pass with flying colours. Other trains have toilets just as small as the Pacers so I don't see how another trains toilets are anymore accessible.

I don't believe that any of the Sprinter classes have achieved 2020 PRM TSI compliance "with flying colours": Those class 156s that have so far been made compliant have needed a whole new toilet module fitted, and this will be the case for all Sprinter units being made compliant. Even the class 158s, which were fitted with toilets deemed disabled accessible when built, will need new toilet modules fitting as the current ones do not comply with 2020 standards.

There's a host of other, less high profile, changes that will have to be made which are pretty standard across all Sprinter classes 150 - 156, including:

• Priority seats – some fitted at refurbishing but more required
• Second wheelchair space required (both spaces to be near toilet)
• Call for aid buttons to be fitted in toilet and wheelchair spaces
• Door sounders – required in all external door control panels
• Passenger Information System to be fitted
• Low force gangway door handles to be fitted

The Turbostars are fairly modern trains which benefitted from the need to comply with the Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 1998 at the time of their construction, so only relatively minor changes are required to bring them up to 2020 PRM TSI standard and some areas of minor non-compliance have been accepted on the older units. They are all already fitted with compliant disabled accessible toilets as well as, in most cases, the traditional "cupboard" style one and visual passenger information displays.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder why the door control buttons on the Class 142 units are still not the same as found on other units. Even the Manchester Metrolink door control buttons are easy to see and use.

 

[J-2739]

I wonder why the door control buttons on the Class 142 units are still not the same as found on other units. Even the Manchester Metrolink door control buttons are easy to see and use.

There used to be similar ones on the 150s, but now they've got easy to see ones instead (forgot the technical name). Maybe they think it's not worth to do the buttons up until they are scrapped. But if so, why do the 144s have them...?

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe they think it's not worth to do the buttons up until they are scrapped. But if so, why do the 144s have them...?

The class 142s are owned by Angel Trains, the 144s by Porterbrook. Angel Trains have already demonstrated that they are less willing to invest in their class 142 units to bring them up to 2020 PRM TSI standard than Porterbrook with the 144s.

 

[PacerTrain142]

I can't wait for the kids to go back to school.

Some already have!

 

[Harbornite]

Some already have!

But not all, judging by the crap you were spouting earlier!

Do you still think that Northern are getting 230s or have you actually done some research?

 

[PacerTrain142]

Some older rolling stock is going to last past the deadline, so necessary to update them. Your just discriminating at this point.

I'm not discriminating, I just think it's a bit silly to force rail companies to fork out millions so that a small few will benefit, rather than spending the money on something else that will benefit the masses, not a small few. I can't remember the last time a person in a wheelchair boarded a train, but I remember once someone boarded a pacer in a wheelchair and it wasn't too much trouble, guard just had to put a ramp down as normal.

Will heritage trains have to conform to these standards too, I wonder?

Pacers literally has an extra step to get onto the train. Sprinters and Turbos don't.

But there is still a gap between the train and the platform whatever train you use so my point is you still need a ramp to get a wheelchair on!

That depends of if Porterbrook wants to continue doing that. Due to the narrowing market for that, I doubt it.

Narrowing market?? What are you talking about? Fact is, here in the North of England, we have an overcrowded, underfunded rail system. We simply can't afford to lose even a single train. if the Pacers had to go because Porterbrook or whoever were too lazy to refurbish them then that would be disastrous as rail services would have to be drastically cut due to the lack of trains.

You clearly have no idea what a bogie is.

Yes I do, It's called a JOKE.

Of course it's an opinion. But admit it, Pacers in their basic state are not sustainable for the future.

No I will not admit it, as you yourself have just stated an opinion.

Yes, you're right - Pacers in thier basic state are indeed not sustainable for the future - to run on the increasingly overcrowded busy urban commuter routes many of them still run on. I think those routes would be better electrified, and put the Pacers on the branch lines which they are far more suited to. I think as rail usage is higher than ever they should re-open all the lines that were closed by Beeching, and build some new cheap economical Pacer-type rolling stock (perhaps from a Dennis Dart bus body for example) to run on those lines.

He made no mention of that in his OP, but since mention that, I might as well explain it to you. The diesel D Stock are meant as a stop gap solution due to slowed electrification so not permanent.

Believe it or not, The Pacers were also designed as a stop gap when they were first built back in the 80's but we still have them today! And electrification will mean more electric trains will have to be built so either way you still have to build more trains.... Unless of course you keep and refurbish the Pacers..

Where did you get that from? That sounds outdated to me.

As usual in Politics, they made BIG promises that Pacers would be scrapped and replaced in the near future... Then they went back on thier word...

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11430477.display/#comments-anchor

 

[Harbornite]

Narrowing market?? What are you talking about? Fact is, here in the North of England, we have an overcrowded, underfunded rail system. We simply can't afford to lose even a single train. if the Pacers had to go because Porterbrook or whoever were too lazy to refurbish them then that would be disastrous as rail services would have to be drastically cut due to the lack of trains.

Yes, you're right - Pacers in thier basic state are indeed not sustainable for the future - to run on the increasingly overcrowded busy urban commuter routes many of them still run on. I think those routes would be better electrified, and put the Pacers on the branch lines which they are far more suited to. I think as rail usage is higher than ever they should re-open all the lines that were closed by Beeching, and build some new cheap economical Pacer-type rolling stock (perhaps from a Dennis Dart bus body for example) to run on those lines.

Believe it or not, The Pacers were also designed as a stop gap when they were first built back in the 80's but we still have them today! And electrification will mean more electric trains will have to be built so either way you still have to build more trains.... Unless of course you keep and refurbish the Pacers..


As usual in Politics, they made BIG promises that Pacers would be scrapped and replaced in the near future... Then they went back on thier word...

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11430477.display/#comments-anchor

You're hopeless aren't you. :roll:

That article was from 2014. The Pacers were intended as a stop-gap until newer trains were built. New Electric and diesel trains have been ordered and the 142s can be withdrawn once the new units come into service. Did you not look it up? There won't be any reason for Northern to keep these bags of crap.

 

[J-2739]

I'm not discriminating, I just think it's a bit silly to force rail companies to fork out millions so that a small few will benefit, rather than spending the money on something else that will benefit the masses, not a small few. I can't remember the last time a person in a wheelchair boarded a train, but I remember once someone boarded a pacer in a wheelchair and it wasn't too much trouble, guard just had to put a ramp down as normal.

Your still discriminating. No matter the size of a particular demography, if you stop them or exclude them from something that's discrimination. Accessibility for the non-able bodied is more then getting them on the train: making sure there is a door near to their space; making sure a toilet is close by to them; making sure there are help points near them. Disability is more than not being able to walk. Deaf people may not hear the door closing alarm; no inclusion of a door opening alarm; Partially blind people may not be able to see the bus doors properly as they may not contrast with the train as good as say, a plug door.

Will heritage trains have to conform to these standards too, I wonder?

Heritage trains are subject to grandfather rights, so no, do not need such modifications.

But there is still a gap between the train and the platform whatever train you use so my point is you still need a ramp to get a wheelchair on!

Like I said before, there is more to complying with the DDA than getting a wheelchair onto a train.

Narrowing market?? What are you talking about? Fact is, here in the North of England, we have an overcrowded, underfunded rail system. We simply can't afford to lose even a single train. if the Pacers had to go because Porterbrook or whoever were too lazy to refurbish them then that would be disastrous as rail services would have to be drastically cut due to the lack of trains.

So why aren't Porterbrook continuing with the 144e project then? Fact is that in the next coming years, there are better stock being cascaded to Northern which leaves the 144e project in a sorry state. The fact that the 144e has a lower capacity than a generic Pacer means that there are going to be problems here.

Yes I do, It's called a JOKE.

But the way you bogged it in with the rest of your fantasy story, how was I suppose to know it was a joke?

No I will not admit it, as you yourself have just stated an opinion.

Yes, you're right - Pacers in thier basic state are indeed not sustainable for the future - to run on the increasingly overcrowded busy urban commuter routes many of them still run on. I think those routes would be better electrified, and put the Pacers on the branch lines which they are far more suited to. I think as rail usage is higher than ever they should re-open all the lines that were closed by Beeching, and build some new cheap economical Pacer-type rolling stock (perhaps from a Dennis Dart bus body for example) to run on those lines.

You've literally just admitted that Pacers are not sustainable for the growing future. Most of these branch lines you're talking about are not having the same usage as say, 1985. It's only best if they get newer stock or at best, a higher capacity cascaded rolling stock.

Believe it or not, The Pacers were also designed as a stop gap when they were first built back in the 80's but we still have them today! And electrification will mean more electric trains will have to be built so either way you still have to build more trains.... Unless of course you keep and refurbish the Pacers..

We're not living with an underfunded railway these days. Most of the routes that got Pacers had no plans for electrification, so is a completely different scenario to now

As usual in Politics, they made BIG promises that Pacers would be scrapped and replaced in the near future... Then they went back on thier word...

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11430477.display/#comments-anchor

I TOLD you it was outdated. Came from the 25th August 2014!

 

[PacerTrain142]

You're hopeless aren't you. :roll:

That article was from 2014. The Pacers were intended as a stop-gap until newer trains were built. New Electric and diesel trains have been ordered and the 142s can be withdrawn once the new units come into service. Did you not look it up? There won't be any reason for Northern to keep these bags of crap.

I have not heard anything about new trains for the North apart from that D Stock Conversion thing - if that is the case, then all I can say is - WoW Amazing! Pigs Might Fly!!!

I have looked it up many times before, I have read many articles full of empty promises and half-hearted pledges but no one has done anything.... I still see the same old trains on the network none of this brand new shiny stuff.

When the Pacers do eventually go I would like to see some go to heritage lines around the country, perhaps when they do become "heritage trains" they can be used to reopen some lines closed by Beeching and run as "heritage service" where they are free to reign the track without being subjected to modern standards and hatred imposed on them.

The rest could be converted back to buses - it would be pretty simple really - take off the freight wagon chassis, replace with a bus chassis, put on bus wheels, re engineer the cab and transmission etc (basically reverse the steps it took to go from Leyland Bus to Pacer) and there you have a brand new bus!

Much better use for them than just being converted to scrap metal.

 

[J-2739]

I have not heard anything about new trains for the North apart from that D Stock Conversion thing - if that is the case, then all I can say is - WoW Amazing! Pigs Might Fly!!!

:roll:

Here you go-http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/HS2/arriva-signs-490m-rolling-stock-contract-to-replace-northerns-pacers

Happy now?

 

[EssexGonzo]

Well....my first Pacer this evening.

I will never be so harsh about my regular 321s and 315s again.

Absolutely terrible.[emoji12]

 

[J-2739]

Well....my first Pacer this evening.

I will never be so harsh about my regular 321s and 315s again.

Absolutely terrible.[emoji12]

Only just one of many distinctive features you get to consume Up North, unless it was a dreaded GWR bus seated variety...

 

[EssexGonzo]

Only just one of many distinctive features you get to consume Up North, unless it was a dreaded GWR bus seated variety...

Imagine my delight when my next connection was a 4-car pacer. And YES! With the coach seats from my youth.

What an end to my epic journey from Euston to Atherton. The Pendo was quite nice.

 

[Harbornite]

I have not heard anything about new trains for the North apart from that D Stock Conversion thing - if that is the case, then all I can say is - WoW Amazing! Pigs Might Fly!!!

It seems like you are incapable of clicking on links to other websites and using google. I sent you two links with info in the orders in one of my earlier posts but you obviously didn't bother or were unable to use them. :roll:

Just type in class 195 and/or class 331. I can't help you any more. Also, how many times do we have to say that there are no 230 orders for Northern?

I have looked it up many times before, I have read many articles full of empty promises and half-hearted pledges but no one has done anything.... I still see the same old trains on the network none of this brand new shiny stuff.

I doubt this. You seem rather ignorant, the trains have to be built before they can be used, y'know. :roll:

The rest could be converted back to buses - it would be pretty simple really - take off the freight wagon chassis, replace with a bus chassis, put on bus wheels, re engineer the cab and transmission etc (basically reverse the steps it took to go from Leyland Bus to Pacer) and there you have a brand new bus!

Much better use for them than just being converted to scrap metal

No it isn't. Why would any bus operator do this when they could order new buses or buy older ones, such as Leyland nationals?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I wonder if, when pacers are life expired, they could be converted to weedkilling trains such as the 141s were for a short time

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Only just one of many distinctive features you get to consume Up North, unless it was a dreaded GWR bus seated variety...

GWR bus seated variety? You mean the 142s that were on loan from Northern several years ago and have long since returned to haunt the nightmares of Northern commuters with their eerie rattle and squeal?!

 

[J-2739]

GWR bus seated variety? You mean the 142s that were on loan from Northern several years ago and have long since returned to haunt the nightmares of Northern commuters with their eerie rattle and squeal?!

Ah yes, that one! I'm still recovering from when I had to endure one from Man Pic to Sheffield last week. hock:

Where are the anti-Pacer pills when you need them?! :cry:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ah yes, that one! I'm still recovering from when I had to endure one from Man Pic to Sheffield last week. hock:

Where are the anti-Pacer pills when you need them?! :cry:

The trick is to have several pints of strong ale before boarding, as your alcohol-induced swaying will counterbalance the bounce and sway of the Pacer. You will also think that the squeals and rattles are in your head.

For those under 18, you will need to switch the strong ale for Panda Pops, and treble the dosage...

 

[J-2739]

The trick is to have several pints of strong ale before boarding, as your alcohol-induced swaying will counterbalance the bounce and sway of the Pacer. You will also think that the squeals and rattles are in your head.

For those under 18, you will need to switch the strong ale for Panda Pops, and treble the dosage...

Thanks a lot! Will try! Better be x2 if a bus seat disaster comes and I'd probably die anyway if a MerseyTrifle one even comes in my circle of sight!!

 

[47802]

I have not heard anything about new trains for the North apart from that D Stock Conversion thing - if that is the case, then all I can say is - WoW Amazing! Pigs Might Fly!!!

I have looked it up many times before, I have read many articles full of empty promises and half-hearted pledges but no one has done anything.... I still see the same old trains on the network none of this brand new shiny stuff.

When the Pacers do eventually go I would like to see some go to heritage lines around the country, perhaps when they do become "heritage trains" they can be used to reopen some lines closed by Beeching and run as "heritage service" where they are free to reign the track without being subjected to modern standards and hatred imposed on them.

The rest could be converted back to buses - it would be pretty simple really - take off the freight wagon chassis, replace with a bus chassis, put on bus wheels, re engineer the cab and transmission etc (basically reverse the steps it took to go from Leyland Bus to Pacer) and there you have a brand new bus!

Much better use for them than just being converted to scrap metal.

Wow the idea that the 142's could be converted back to Buses not sure what planet your on there.

In any case besides the new train order already pointed out, there will be a cascade of other sprinter stock and 16 x 170's from Scotrail, as well as a reduction in diesel operated routes as a result of the completion of the North West electrification program.

There is an agreed increase in capacity as part of the franchise commitment, but I guess there may still be the question as whether it will be enough, but even if it isn't hopefully other options would be explored rather than retaining any Pacers.

Pacers were built for a different time in railway history, but now they have served their purpose and its time they went.