Everything wrong with Pacers

[skyhigh]

Everything wrong with Pacers

Yes, that's quite right...

 

[anti-pacer]

I don't think they are much worse than some of the 150s used on Northern, which will be staying put.

Aren't they getting refurbished?

 

[J-2739]

I don't think they are much worse than some of the 150s used on Northern, which will be staying put.

150s are just as bad. Dark and dingy interiors, dirty floor and narrow 3+2 seats.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The general consensus seems to be that the 143s and 144s are better than the 142s but I personally disagree, providing the 142 in question isn't a Merseytravel one. I went on 2 Pacers earlier today: a 3-car 144 from Denby Dale to Huddersfield and a Northern Spirit refurbished 142 from Huddersfield to Batley. The 142 was a far more pleasant ride as the bulky seats on the 144s are too close together, and my knees are crammed against the seat in front even though I'm only average height at 5'8".

There's very little jointed track left around West Yorkshire so the ride quality is less of an issue than in the past round these parts, although the rigid wheelbase can be rather noisy with squealing on tight curves such as the Wakefield link line and the curves at Bradley and Greetland. I'd argue that the ride quality of Mk4s is worse than a Pacer on straightish CWR, though that's generally at a much higher speed than you'd get a Pacer at. I only have limited experience of 143s but a journey from Taunton to Newport was a step too far on one of those! A few weeks ago I ended up going all the way from Huddersfield to Kirkham and Wesham on 2 different pairs of Merseytravel 142s and again that was a bit too much! I was definitely relieved when my Blackpool South train came in formed of a pair of 150s!

One thing I will praise the Pacers for is the great views than can be enjoyed from them due to the light, airy cabins- in particular the seats at the inner end of the non-toilet car which with the bus doors offer a great view of the Holme Valley as you head over Lockwood viaduct. Thats something that will be missed when 150s become the standard on the Penistone line, as they and the 153/155 are the very worst stock to have on scenic routes. They are getting old now though, and as much as I've grown to love them over the years I won't be sad to see them go. I do hope some get preserved though because love them or loathe them, they are a significant part of our railway history.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Perfectly fine...for what they were built for, but times have changed and expectations and passenger numbers have grown.

Now possibly a bit of an anachronism on the rail network, the Welsh Valley services being a case in point - too slow, too small, too spartan, especially if you compare with the more modern builds.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing one kitted out in a luxurious manner complete with dining room, bathroom, bedroom etc...could be the next royal train...

t.

Ian

 

[yorksrob]

I love Pacers too. Best British Rail design isn't the APT or HST its the 142.

Have you been smoking something

To be fair, I quite like 144's though. If you shove enough of them together, they make a reasonable commuter train.

P.S, best British Rail design is the EPB

 

[dave87016]

I love 142's it will be a very sad day indeed when they are withdrawn!! I don't think the bouncing about is anywhere near as bad as it was in the late 90's and early 2000's due to the amount of track work that's taken place ( at least in the North West 142 territory)

the Man Vic - Wigan via Atherton was one of my favourites for bouncing about but the track work has improved the ride quality the Man Vic - Rochdale via Oldham was another regular trip I made whenever I did the GMRail Ranger purely for the 142's

 

[387star]

I will miss them when they go being a southener fond memories of them rattling me across the pennines in the 90s

Might have to plan a trip up north

 

[kevconnor]

Best description I read of them came from a fellow on the SSC forum who described them as.

the unwanted love child of a 1970s school bus and a Romanian tractor

 

[northwichcat]

Too small
Poor acceleration
Poor ride quality
Overheating in summer
Deafening squealing on sharp bends
Drafty doors in winter
Toilet doors that expand meaning you can't lock them
Door controls in bad position

And the one advantage - no restricted view seats.

 

[507021]

I don't see Wales ever getting extra Pacers even if they're kitted out for DDA. If the 230 concept still goes through and Vivarail doesn't go down under, the next Welsh franchise would probably go for them instead of the Pacers, leaving them with no home. We also have to consider if Porterbrook would go on with converting their Pacers to comply and given the shrinking market for that, I doubt they will even bat an eye.

It is a shame that Pacers didn't stay on the routes they were made for, but at least preserving one (142) will give the coming generations an insight on BR underfunded period.

The way I see it is that Pacers are already used by Wales and Borders (hence no need for familiarisation etc), they have a higher top speed (75 for the 143/4s, 60 for the 230s) and I would imagine it would be less expensive to refurbish 45 (excluding 144012) 143s and 144s than to acquire the same number of 2-car 230s. There is also the advantage that 14x units can work in multiple with 15x units, allowing for more flexibility with formations.

 

[transmanche]

If you'd ever travelled on a Pacer on the last service of the day from Carlisle to Newcastle in the middle of winter, then you wouldn't need to ask the question!

The Pacer was just what BR needed at the time and probably saved some routes from closure. But they should have been scrapped by 2000.

 

[PHILIPE]

The way I see it is that Pacers are already used by Wales and Borders (hence no need for familiarisation etc), they have a higher top speed (75 for the 143/4s, 60 for the 230s) and I would imagine it would be less expensive to refurbish 45 (excluding 144012) 143s and 144s than to acquire the same number of 2-car 230s. There is also the advantage that 14x units can work in multiple with 15x units, allowing for more flexibility with formations.

Wales and Borders ? Disappeared 13 years ago. Could be resurrected in new franchise in 2018, though. I presume you are assuming that the 142s (ATW) will be withdrawn.

 

[Rapidash]

Hahahahahahahah

Ha

If you really want to appreciate the inadequacies of a Pacer, have a go at trying to board one when its on its own out of Exeter on a summers afternoon.

I say try, because unless you are trained in ancient Tibetan hiking techniques, and have a goat as a spirit animal, you wont be getting passed the hordes of cyclists, suit cases, wheelchairs and buggies. If your lucky you might get a seat that wasnt designed with a 14th century dwarven/hobbit Welsh hybrid coal miner in mind. Thats the benefit of the training!

Its not as bad when running in a pair, mercifully. They get to unstack the old ladies from the top of the buggy piles.

They have also have this soothing little note to their brakes, which wakes you up at each station.

Gimme a 3/2 150/1 any day of the week.

 

[507021]

Wales and Borders ? Disappeared 13 years ago. Could be resurrected in new franchise in 2018, though. I presume you are assuming that the 142s (ATW) will be withdrawn.

I was referring to the name of the franchise, rather than the franchise operator.

 

[yorksrob]

Idiosyncratic though they are, I'd happily keep a few 142's on hand to strengthen other services.

 

[GarethJohn]

For journeys of around 10 meters they are worth a ride for the comedy value perhaps the Circus will take them on. They should be tried once.
Partly to try one too see what the fuss. I went on them twice last season one on a long journey(felt like hours) It was too slow, uncomfortable and the heater kept burning my leg but did nothing else like heat the carriage.
The other a short stopping one, it was to wobbly, too dirty to see out of and had bad acceleration and rubbish brakes.
They are unsuitable for any type of route & looked dated when they were new, buying a season ticket to use one regularly gives the impression that the Railway's really taking the pee.
Looking at a nations Railways can be a window into it's ability to engineer & run things. So I wonder how much business they have cost the UK after a potential buyer had ridden on one?
But they have a canny knack of making any type of unit or vehicle you catch later feel like luxury.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Idiosyncratic though they are, I'd happily keep a few 142's on hand to strengthen other services.

Have Angel Trains had second thoughts?

 

[J-2739]

Have Angel Trains had second thoughts?

They have zero plans with them. Only future is at Rotherham I suppose (and not in the revenue sense ).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

They have the nickname of Nodding Donkeys for a very good reason. Saying that the ride quality is crap is probably putting it extremely politely, most peoples actual thoughts would probably result in a post getting deleted for bad language.

I've only ever once been on a pacer many years ago from York-Scarborough , NEVER AGAIN! If I had the choice between a train formed of a pacer and a train formed of something else that was jam packed, I'd go for the jam packed train!

 

[yorksrob]

Have Angel Trains had second thoughts?

Not as far as I'm aware.

 

[D365]

Don't know why some say the 143s/144s are better. Aside from the guarantee of no bench seating, I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Better a seat on a Pacer than full and standing on something else. As I've said before I'm firmly of the view that they should not be scrapped until either they are too expensive to maintain or a seat is available for all passengers on UK regional diesel services at all times of day, as in most cases the only constraint there is rolling stock. Until then (and the Northern new stock order is inadequate to achieve that) they should stay.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Better a seat on a Pacer than full and standing on something else. As I've said before I'm firmly of the view that they should not be scrapped until either they are too expensive to maintain or a seat is available for all passengers on UK regional diesel services at all times of day, as in most cases the only constraint there is rolling stock. Until then (and the Northern new stock order is inadequate to achieve that) they should stay.

A nice idea, but given loadings into our larger towns and cities that rule would ensure that Pacers will be around forever!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A nice idea, but given loadings into our larger towns and cities that rule would ensure that Pacers will be around forever!

Where the constraint is only rolling stock, sufficient should be ordered to allow this to be the case. Rolling stock is quite cheap compared to the kind of infrastructure changes needed in the SE.

 

[J-2739]

Better a seat on a Pacer than full and standing on something else. As I've said before I'm firmly of the view that they should not be scrapped until either they are too expensive to maintain or a seat is available for all passengers on UK regional diesel services at all times of day, as in most cases the only constraint there is rolling stock. Until then (and the Northern new stock order is inadequate to achieve that) they should stay.

Full and standing on a Pacer though is a nightmare, especially on bus seated ones, but I get your point. No one suggest they should be scrapped tomorrow; Northern is going to receive new CAF units to cover the replacement, as well as cascades. They can the be sent to scrap/preservation before the clock ticks to 2020. The Pacers at Wales though, is at a bit of a tight positon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They have the nickname of Nodding Donkeys for a very good reason. Saying that the ride quality is crap is probably putting it extremely politely, most peoples actual thoughts would probably result in a post getting deleted for bad language.

I've only ever once been on a pacer many years ago from York-Scarborough , NEVER AGAIN! If I had the choice between a train formed of a pacer and a train formed of something else that was jam packed, I'd go for the jam packed train!

But say, if the Pacers had hordes of space and still got you from A to B, wouldn't you want that option instead?

 

[northwichcat]

The Pacers at Wales though, is at a bit of a tight positon.

Although with all the 153s that are being released or could be released (LM and EMT ones could be replaced by released 170s and 156s) there would be enough to eliminate the Pacers at ATW if they were to be reformed in to 2 car sets and given the accessibility modifications (which the ROSCOs claim aren't viable if they remain as single car units.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But say, if the Pacers had hordes of space and still got you from A to B, wouldn't you want that option instead?

Would anyone choose a Merseytravel 142 where you could get a row of three seats for yourself over a 156 or a 158 where you sit next to a stranger?

 

[J-2739]

Would anyone choose a Merseytravel 142 where you could get a row of three seats for yourself over a 156 or a 158 where you sit next to a stranger?

If I had a window seat, a 158 tops a Pacer any day, stranger or no stranger!! Never been on a Merseytravel Pacer but heard they're pretty bad in this forum. I don't know what the generic public thinks about them, they'd just group all Pacers in one pit, but at least Pacers get people to their destinations in the end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would anyone choose a Merseytravel 142 where you could get a row of three seats for yourself over a 156 or a 158 where you sit next to a stranger?

If all other things were equal (i.e. the less comfortable rolling stock would not get me there faster) I would take any train where I could have a unit of seating to myself (be that an airline row or a table bay) over any where I could not.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where the constraint is only rolling stock, sufficient should be ordered to allow this to be the case. Rolling stock is quite cheap compared to the kind of infrastructure changes needed in the SE.

True theres more room for affordable growth in the North, but even lengthening services will require platform extensions in many places and any investment at all seems to be hard to come by North of Watford!