Eurostar York to Paris proposals

[185]

Done right, passport control 'on the fly' is not impossible. Some trains I've seen over the years had the equivalent of an on-board 'cell' for detaining anyone who slipped through net, and removing hiding places was key to making it work.

Boarding checks at the train doors seemed to work well too.

With mobile technology developing, direct access to the IPS Passport database could be available using handheld devices

That said, I've a suspicion we will join Schengen during coming years, on economic grounds, as a shortsighted government will miss the obvious costs associated with benefits and welfare and concentrate on the immediate savings of removing border controls.

 

[WessexEclectic]

The primary barrier to direct services is the UK not being in the Schengen zone. It always has been. The current governemtn is unlikely to relax UK border controls; the same goes for any realistic future government (as things stand).

Neither Russia or China are in the Schengen zone, but that does not stop direct Moscow-Beijing services nor even direct Moscow-Pyongyang services!

 

[MCR247]

That isn't the point. Its the consequences of not being in the Schengen zone that kill of any chance of direct Europe services

 

[TheKnightWho]

That isn't the point. Its the consequences of not being in the Schengen zone that kill of any chance of direct Europe services

I'm not understanding this. Surely having passport control on the trains, with a means to detain and return is far more cost effective than passport controls at every station?

Neither Russia or China are in the Schengen zone, but that does not stop direct Moscow-Beijing services nor even direct Moscow-Pyongyang services!

True, but their methods would only really work on sleepers, unless you want to add a couple of hours to the timings of every train (and likely quarter the number of trains able to run) by holding them up at the Chunnel mouth to check them every time?

That said, I've a suspicion we will join Schengen during coming years, on economic grounds, as a shortsighted government will miss the obvious costs associated with benefits and welfare and concentrate on the immediate savings of removing border controls.

Highly unlikely. The Daily Mail, Daily Express et al. would have an absolute fit, and what with Euroscepticism at an all time high, it would be electoral suicide. Although I disagree with you on the costs - it's a well-known tenet of economics that immigration is almost always helpful, and if you actually look at what the majority of immigrants from countries within the EU actually do, they work. Admittedly this can drive wages down, but keeping them artificially high by banning anyone prepared to work for a lower cost (i.e. keeping immigrants out) is a short-sighted measure that is only going to keep us going for so long. We're in an increasingly globalised marketplace, and if we don't recognise that at some point we're going to get hit seriously hard.

Now, if you want to talk about cultural and social difficulties, you have a very good point, but economics is (for better or worse) on the side of immigration.

 

[HowardGWR]

That said, I've a suspicion we will join Schengen during coming years, on economic grounds, as a shortsighted government will miss the obvious costs associated with benefits and welfare and concentrate on the immediate savings of removing border controls.

I wish it were true and would come about but I have a distinct impression that the security services have not only a Parkinsons Law mentality (work will expand to fit the resources available) but also are continually dreaming up new threats with which to scare the politicians.

Perhaps one day a British PM will awaken to all this, but I rather think they love all the cloak and dagger stuff, border protection, etc. It gives them a sense of importance (which is not actually the case any longer).

None of all this prevents thousands of illegal immigrants coming here (and more importantly, finding work that our own people won't do and surviving). They have no worse a problem on these issues in the Schengen countries than we do. It's the controls on the workplaces that would reveal illegal immigration but for some reason the security services don't want to bother with that.

I wonder, to stay on topic, if joining Schengen could affect whether airlines could avoid passport checks. After all, all they need is to designate one of the Heathrow terminals as a 'Schengen' terminal? Of course they'd still have to do baggage control.

 

[route:oxford]

Any from the absurdly-named 'London Oxford Airport'?

Sadly they stopped 2 weeks ago after a fairly successful start-up due to "differences" with the airport operator.

Shame really, I used them myself half a dozen times and the service was excellent. The 17.30 flight would have me outside Edinburgh Airport at 18.30. You quite simply can't get North of Edinburgh/Glasgow by train from Oxford after finishing work at 16.30 otherwise.

 

[D1009]

Incidentally there were around 20 million domestic passenger journeys done by air in the UK in 2012.

Does this include transit passengers from long haul flights?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some trains I've seen over the years had the equivalent of an on-board 'cell' for detaining anyone who slipped through net, and removing hiding places was key to making it work.

Current class 373 Eurostar sets have this, I was recently given use of one after being refused a request for a first class upgrade on a FIP ticket. It's like a normal compartment with a full size exterior window, but obviously the door can be locked and there is a hatch like a cell door would have. The staff referred to it as the sin bin!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Current class 373 Eurostar sets have this, I was recently given use of one after being refused a request for a first class upgrade on a FIP ticket. It's like a normal compartment with a full size exterior window, but obviously the door can be locked and there is a hatch like a cell door would have. The staff referred to it as the sin bin!

I expect they don't do passenger checks on the train because politicians would think they'd have to fit out half the train like that or something. Those hoards of illegal immigrants just waiting at the French coast and all that. :roll:

 

[D1009]

I expect they don't do passenger checks on the train because politicians would think they'd have to fit out half the train like that or something. Those hoards of illegal immigrants just waiting at the French coast and all that. :roll:

Following the recent high profile criticism of the UK border agency, on at least Brussels trains they were actually checking tickets and passports on the train in addition to both terminals. I believe this resulted from the fact they convey "domestic" passengers from Brussels to Lille, which left a loophole for illegal entry to the UK. I believe they have now found a way of closing this loophole.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Following the recent high profile criticism of the UK border agency, on at least Brussels trains they were actually checking tickets and passports on the train in addition to both terminals. I believe this resulted from the fact they convey "domestic" passengers from Brussels to Lille, which left a loophole for illegal entry to the UK. I believe they have now found a way of closing this loophole.

Why is it considered infeasible to do this instead of terminal checks instead of in addition to? It would simply be like an ordinary ticket check, except those travelling internationally would require a passport/valid ID in addition to their ticket.

 

[brianthegiant]

Logically one would have the passport control at the UK end, and run services all over Europe from a handful of stations in the UK.
But I suppose the fundamental problem is the nature of emergency door release mechanisms and people are worried that once on UK soil, an illegal immigrant could try to stop the train & open a door somewhere in the middle of nowhere?
I suppose also you couldn't have system where doors could only be released by crew, since crew might not be available in a given location in an emergency?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sadly they stopped 2 weeks ago after a fairly successful start-up due to "differences" with the airport operator.

Shame really, I used them myself half a dozen times and the service was excellent. The 17.30 flight would have me outside Edinburgh Airport at 18.30. You quite simply can't get North of Edinburgh/Glasgow by train from Oxford after finishing work at 16.30 otherwise.

Though of course Oxford is certainly not in London! Does the great, historic city of Oxford not have enough allure of it's own without making geographic nonsense!


I'll say this now, any party that incudes in it's manifesto at the next election a pledge to join Schengen, can count on my vote (providing they don't also pledge to, say, reintroduce section 28 or some other attack on minorities!).

 

[MCR247]

I'm not understanding this. Surely having passport control on the trains, with a means to detain and return is far more cost effective than passport controls at every station?

IMO, its not even about passports, its about demand. The fact that we are not a part of the Schengen zone means that any trains from Manchester/Birmingham/York/wherever to Paris etcwill have to only be for international passengers and I am truly not convinced that there is demand to fill 9 coach trains (for example) between the places.

Schengen is relevent to this problem because if we were apart of it, to put it simply we could have a Manchester - Paris service that is the equivalent of a Manchester - London and a London - Paris today

 

[TheKnightWho]

IMO, its not even about passports, its about demand. The fact that we are not a part of the Schengen zone means that any trains from Manchester/Birmingham/York/wherever to Paris etcwill have to only be for international passengers and I am truly not convinced that there is demand to fill 9 coach trains (for example) between the places.

Schengen is relevent to this problem because if we were apart of it, to put it simply we could have a Manchester - Paris service that is the equivalent of a Manchester - London and a London - Paris today

Why could they not have checks on trains, and with those travelling internationally simply having to produce a passport in addition to their ticket? Surely that would be better than the ridiculous system we have now?

 

[jon0844]

When Eurostar did checks on the train back at the start, I can't remember if the passports were checked by the UK when the train was on British soil or soon after leaving Paris/Brussels?

There is a risk of someone using the emergency exit, as I believe has already been attempted once, so I guess doing the check before even coming out of the tunnel on the British side would be essential.. possibly before reaching a station where people could be detrained if refused entry (still on the French side).

It's less of an issue the other way, as we don't generally do exit checks and don't seem to care - so it would be simply down to the French to do checks, and I doubt as many people are seeking to illegally get into France from here.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why could they not have checks on trains, and with those travelling internationally simply having to produce a passport in addition to their ticket? Surely that would be better than the ridiculous system we have now?

Something like this really should be workable, but given the number of times I see no ticket checks made on a 40-minute journey on a 2-car service, i'm nut sure I'd want to rely on an immigration officer getting all the way down a 400 (or 320) metre Eurostar set! There's also the issue of what you do with anyone found on board who does not have the correct documentation. Someone mentioned the idea of installing 'holding cells' in each trainset, but I can't imagine that being workable (though it would guarantee a seat if you were to 'lose' your passport in the bottom of your bag!).

 

[jon0844]

Eurostar HAS (or had) got cells on the trains... From memory, there was a seat inside that you could hand cuff someone to.

I remember thinking at the time that this was either a cell, or a class even higher than first class...

The problem with a cell is that if you carried someone through to the UK, they'd probably then claim asylum. They need to be stopped from entering the UK at all, and I'm not sure that the train is still classed as being on French soil until arriving at St Pancras and passing through arrivals?

 

[flymo]

Originally Posted by flymo
Incidentally there were around 20 million domestic passenger journeys done by air in the UK in 2012.

Does this include transit passengers from long haul flights?

From airports with international connections, almost certainly.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Eurostar HAS (or had) got cells on the trains... From memory, there was a seat inside that you could hand cuff someone to.

I remember thinking at the time that this was either a cell, or a class even higher than first class...

The problem with a cell is that if you carried someone through to the UK, they'd probably then claim asylum. They need to be stopped from entering the UK at all, and I'm not sure that the train is still classed as being on French soil until arriving at St Pancras and passing through arrivals?

Surely that would simply require a bit of legal rejigging? I mean, ideally we'd simply join Schengen, but in the meantime we should do what we can to ensure passage is as simple as possible for those with the documentation whilst still barring those without from gaining access.

I suppose one solution would be to simply employ those currently working the gates on the trainsets themselves to increase presence?

 

[Sidious]

Perhaps if Eurostar, and the Regional TOC's put their efforts in to making through journey tickets from regional destinations in the UK to more destinations in Continental Europe then there might be an uptake - which would form a business case for through trains in the future.

It is impossible to book a train+hotel package from any regional station.

Fares are pretty good though, if booked well in advance it's possible to get a Newcastle - Nice ticket at £69 one way. It does take 12 hours with connections, which for a railway enthusiast would be a bonus!

 

[HowardGWR]

Eurostar HAS (or had) got cells on the trains... From memory, there was a seat inside that you could hand cuff someone to.

I remember thinking at the time that this was either a cell, or a class even higher than first class...

The problem with a cell is that if you carried someone through to the UK, they'd probably then claim asylum. They need to be stopped from entering the UK at all, and I'm not sure that the train is still classed as being on French soil until arriving at St Pancras and passing through arrivals?

No, I think you would not be able to claim asylum from France as, by definition, you arrived from France. Only arriving from countries where persecution exists would qualify. France is not such a country (although those British holiday makers collecting speeding tickets may feel otherwise - they are wrong of course ).

If you swim ashore, I suppose you can always claim that you fell off a boat in the Channel.

see http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/asylum/

 

[Sidious]

Heathrow and Edinburgh with around 1.25 million passenger journeys.

1.25 million sounds a lot, but when you consider this equates to an average of 3443 passengers per day (over 363 days as the railway closes for 2 days a year). Of course half will be going one way and half the other, and there are 41 direct trains each weekday between the two which averages out at 84 passengers per train (3443/41).

Very many of the daytime east coast services have significant capacity available, and many would be comfortably able to accommodate 84 extra passengers.

The figures for Glasgow are even more generous, as are Manchester.

 

[Oliver]

No, I think you would not be able to claim asylum from France as, by definition, you arrived from France. Only arriving from countries where persecution exists would qualify. France is not such a country (although those British holiday makers collecting speeding tickets may feel otherwise - they are wrong of course ).

If you swim ashore, I suppose you can always claim that you fell off a boat in the Channel.

see http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/asylum/

Sadly there are literally thousands of people living in camps around Calais, etc, who wish to get to Britain in order to claim asylum. Yes, they could claim asylum in France, but their claims would mainly be rejected and they would be deported back to their country of origin. For better or worse, Britain is far more amenable to such claims. That is the primary reason why UK won't join Schengen; it would be political suicide for a party to support such a move.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm not sure there are camps there anymore. The Sangatte camp was shut in 2002, and others cleared not long after.

Just so we're clear on terminology:

"illegal asylum seeker" is something that's impossible.

 

[LateThanNever]

Sadly there are literally thousands of people living in camps around Calais, etc, who wish to get to Britain in order to claim asylum. Yes, they could claim asylum in France, but their claims would mainly be rejected and they would be deported back to their country of origin. For better or worse, Britain is far more amenable to such claims. That is the primary reason why UK won't join ; it would be political suicide for a party to support such a move.

And Schengen is just a bad idea for UK plc. It is vaguely flattering that everyone wants to come here but we are a small island - which is surely why some of us want to go abroad - but an island race we are and Schengen will surely never be even if we - lets hope - at least remain in the EU!

 

[TheKnightWho]

And Schengen is just a bad idea for UK plc. It is vaguely flattering that everyone wants to come here but we are a small island - which is surely why some of us want to go abroad - but an island race we are and Schengen will surely never be even if we - lets hope - at least remain in the EU!

I still feel this shouldn't be an impairment to accessible and widespread international train travel, however. If, as you say, not joining Schengen is the best way forward, is there still no way a simpler means of checking passports could be implemented?

Night sleepers could simply be stopped at the Folkstone or Coquelles terminals and checked. I really feel we've shot ourselves in the foot here; no wonder demand isn't meeting expectations, when those projections were based on far more through services than we've been providing.

 

[Oliver]

I'm not sure there are camps there anymore. The Sangatte camp was shut in 2002, and others cleared not long after.

Yes, the Sangatte camp was closed, but those who had been living there remained in the area. Subsequently new camps opened:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nside-new-mini-migrant-camp-close-Calais.html

The other issue is terrorism; like it or not the Channel Tunnel is a potential target for a terrorist attack, and passengers' luggage needs to be screened at the stations served. You could check passports on the train, but you couldn't x-ray luggage.

I know some will argue that the chunnel is not fundamentally different from the Severn tunnel or Ffestiniog tunnel, but the reality is that some places are more at risk than others.

 

[jopsuk]

but an island race we are

At risk of going even more off topic, last time I checked we were a distinctly "mongrel" nation, with even what the racists of the BNP would call "true brits" having a mix of celtic, norman (French), viking, saxon and angle ancestry (the last two being germans) among others.

 

[dggar]

Yes, the Sangatte camp was closed, but those who had been living there remained in the area. Subsequently new camps opened:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nside-new-mini-migrant-camp-close-Calais.html

The other issue is terrorism; like it or not the Channel Tunnel is a potential target for a terrorist attack, and passengers' luggage needs to be screened at the stations served. You could check passports on the train, but you couldn't x-ray luggage.

I know some will argue that the chunnel is not fundamentally different from the Severn tunnel or Ffestiniog tunnel, but the reality is that some places are more at risk than others.

I travelled on the Spanish High Speed system between Madrid, Seville, Cordoba and Granada earlier this year.
At each station any items of luggage had to go through a scanning machine(presumablely X Rays.) before gaining access to the platform, although there was no scanning of the passengers.

 

[jon0844]

And Schengen is just a bad idea for UK plc. It is vaguely flattering that everyone wants to come here but we are a small island - which is surely why some of us want to go abroad - but an island race we are and Schengen will surely never be even if we - lets hope - at least remain in the EU!

We could of course make our tiny island less appealing if we clamped down on a lot of things that make us so tempting and worthy of that extra travel and risk.

But mention things like ID cards and you're going to be out of power pretty damn quick.

I am not just talking about those seeking asylum though, but rather the people who want to enter illegally and stay under the radar. Something that, by all accounts, seems fairly easy given how crap our Border Agency has been over the years.

You only needed to watch the Sky One series to see that even when they caught people, once they were bailed they were going to disappear. Duh!

Personally, I don't have any issues with genuine asylum seekers but would like to see all illegal immigrants removed. Or, to enable them to work and pay taxes, we consider whether to have an amnesty or not.