Eurostar possible expansion?

[quantinghome]

Germany basically has no HS network. The ICE is equivalent to our 'HS' services.

They have HS lines, but they are disconnected. Unlike the French, no one in German government appears to have sat down and decided to build a HS line (say) from Cologne to Berlin with a 2 hour journey time.

It's not just Germany; Belgium and the Netherlands have similar issues.

 

[AlbertBeale]

They have HS lines, but they are disconnected. Unlike the French, no one in German government appears to have sat down and decided to build a HS line (say) from Cologne to Berlin with a 2 hour journey time.

It's not just Germany; Belgium and the Netherlands have similar issues.

HS lines which are bitty, because trains are routed via ordinary lines at towns en route and so on, and because they use decent existing lines for some of the route, give you better integration and connectivity, and a more environmentally positive network ... but lower average speed on longer journeys. I think integration, and a more environmental development, are more important than the difference between highish speed and higher speed.

 

[Peter Kelford]

They have HS lines, but they are disconnected. Unlike the French, no one in German government appears to have sat down and decided to build a HS line (say) from Cologne to Berlin with a 2 hour journey time.

It's not just Germany; Belgium and the Netherlands have similar issues.

Quite true. In all countries where there is an integrated network, there is a master plan. The French one can be found here

 

[quantinghome]

HS lines which are bitty, because trains are routed via ordinary lines at towns en route and so on, and because they use decent existing lines for some of the route, give you better integration and connectivity, and a more environmentally positive network ... but lower average speed on longer journeys. I think integration, and a more environmental development, are more important than the difference between highish speed and higher speed.

It's the old speed vs connectivity dilemma. That is something which high speed lines are meant to resolve by separating the two issues.

For environmental reasons we should be looking at rail taking over from air for journeys up to 1200km distance - they are managing this in China.

It's still quite something that the UK can run intensive intercity services on Victorian alignments which are significantly faster than German ICEs running on new tracks.

 

[tasky]

Germany basically has no HS network. The ICE is equivalent to our 'HS' services.

That's not really true, the east-west links from the Rhineland to Berlin just aren't very quick. But there's plenty of high-speed line in Germany, and certainly far more than in the UK

On this chart green lines are up to 100mph, yellowish up to 125mph, and red 186mph or higher

 

[AlbertBeale]

It's the old speed vs connectivity dilemma. That is something which high speed lines are meant to resolve by separating the two issues..

It depends how you separate the issues - if you mean faster lines with few stops, and slower lines with more stops, yes. But I'm thinking of high speed links which don't interconnect with where they claim to go - eg having separate stations which are miles out of the towns they "serve", and/or which are not connected to the rest of the network for changing for onward journeys. There's no point in saving a few minutes on a journey and then having to lose as much time getting into the city centre.

 

[Chester1]

The additional platform (not yet existent) is on the sens impair (down line). The sens pair already has both platforms. It shouldn't be too big an issue though. In the worst case, the train could reverse out towards the country end. A point has been implemented as a catch point, there is provision for an additional track thus. Whilst challenging, implementing screens is not impossible.

Earlier in the thread I suggested that something possible (without new lines) would be diverting the ski train and doing 19 London - Lyon Saturday services to plug the gap to provide Lyon with a minimum of 1 service per week all year. It sounds like St Exupery would probably be the only viable location for services and passport controls

20% is a huge proportion in this context. It’s not so long ago that rail’s market share of London - Glasgow was 10%, with a 5 hour journey time and trains every 1-2 hours.

20% would be full capacity assuming only end to end journeys. With stops at Lyon and Avignon that share of London to Barcelona market wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Peter Kelford]

For environmental reasons we should be looking at rail taking over from air for journeys up to 1200km distance - they are managing this in China.

The things we denounce about China make this possible. Be mindful of this when saying so. The other main thing is that it doesn't necessarily reduce flights. On the super-busy Beijing-Shanghai route, 50+ flights a day run this route on top of the HSR services. The total population is around 50 million so that's a big factor.

 

[quantinghome]

The things we denounce about China make this possible. Be mindful of this when saying so. The other main thing is that it doesn't necessarily reduce flights. On the super-busy Beijing-Shanghai route, 50+ flights a day run this route on top of the HSR services. The total population is around 50 million so that's a big factor.

Perhaps a better exemplar would be France, or Spain. They have also managed to construct networks with fast average speeds, within a planning system which allows for democracy.

 

[quantinghome]

That's not really true, the east-west links from the Rhineland to Berlin just aren't very quick. But there's plenty of high-speed line in Germany, and certainly far more than in the UK

On this chart green lines are up to 100mph, yellowish up to 125mph, and red 186mph or higher

Great maps - do you have a link?

 

[Peter Kelford]

Great maps - do you have a link?

Open Railway Map: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/. Choose the 'max speed' setting.

 

[Meerkat]

Open Railway Map: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/. Choose the 'max speed' setting.

Do I just have biased eyes or do the maps not really say that Germany has far more HS lines.
More red ones, but not dramatically so on a bigger network, and the UK has more light green 125mph doesn’t it (the map seems to exclude EPS on the WCML which is a bit unfair)?

 

[class26]

Do I just have biased eyes or do the maps not really say that Germany has far more HS lines.
More red ones, but not dramatically so on a bigger network, and the UK has more light green 125mph doesn’t it (the map seems to exclude EPS on the WCML which is a bit unfair)?

The map isn`t entirely correct either as the Berks and Hants ought to be green or even yellow in places

 

[Mikey C]

Realistically I can't see such long rail journeys across Europe being viable until short haul air travel is restricted or massively taxed

And maybe in 30 years time we'll have to accept that the era of weekend city breaks and quick hops to other countries on business are gone

 

[Struner]

The map is part of the OpenStreetMap project, so everyone can contribute.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Do I just have biased eyes or do the maps not really say that Germany has far more HS lines.
More red ones, but not dramatically so on a bigger network, and the UK has more light green 125mph doesn’t it (the map seems to exclude EPS on the WCML which is a bit unfair)?

The colour code is red: HS (250+), yellow: IC (200 or thereabouts), green: classic (160 or less)

 

[Chester1]

Realistically I can't see such long rail journeys across Europe being viable until short haul air travel is restricted or massively taxed

And maybe in 30 years time we'll have to accept that the era of weekend city breaks and quick hops to other countries on business are gone

In 30 years there should be either full electric planes or hybrids using artificial kerosene for short haul flights. Airbus wants hybrids in commercial service in early 2030s and seems to have a plausible plan to do it. Rail travel dominates when journey times are under 3 hours, competes at 4 hours and is a niche market for 5 hours and longer.

I am generally wary when the environment and climate change are used to justify demands for massive lifestyle changes. I am suspicious that its a convenient excuse for changing society rather than a necessity. I very much doubt our current lifestyle but decarbonised would satisfy many within the climate change movement. Electric cars, trains and planes powered by renewable power would allow things to stay more or less the same, rather than usher in some sort of communitarian socialist society.

 

[AlbertBeale]

In 30 years there should be either full electric planes or hybrids using artificial kerosene for short haul flights. Airbus wants hybrids in commercial service in early 2030s and seems to have a plausible plan to do it. Rail travel dominates when journey times are under 3 hours, competes at 4 hours and is a niche market for 5 hours and longer.

I am generally wary when the environment and climate change are used to justify demands for massive lifestyle changes. I am suspicious that its a convenient excuse for changing society rather than a necessity. I very much doubt our current lifestyle but decarbonised would satisfy many within the climate change movement. Electric cars, trains and planes powered by renewable power would allow things to stay more or less the same, rather than usher in some sort of communitarian socialist society.

Serious environmental problems indeed aren't only a matter of carbon/climate/etc - there's also resource depletion, pollution, land degradation, etc etc. Since our species overall is living beyond the carrying capacity of one planet, then for long-term survival we need some combination of less "intensive" lifestyles and fewer people. A major change in either would avoid the need to change the other so much! I'm not quite sure how well-founded concerns about the ecosystem relate to a "communitarian socialist society" - especially since the latter is perfectly compatible with high and unsustainable consumption levels. They're quite separate issues - not that I'm saying that a more communitarian and less selfish style of society wouldn't be an improvement on what we have now!

 

[Peter Kelford]

I'm not quite sure how well-founded concerns about the ecosystem relate to a "communitarian socialist society"

Nor do I for that matter. Frankly, I fail to understand most arguments for why people discredit the climate movement. It probably comes from an American appellation, in which case read communist for socialist and authoritarian for communitarian. The originally intended phrase is probably:

an "authoritarian communist society", and all the connotations this holds in the American culture.

 

[tasky]

The map isn`t entirely correct either as the Berks and Hants ought to be green or even yellow in places

I think 'grey' means no one has added data (although in most cases it means sub 100mph)

 

[BahrainLad]

In the case of a proposed London - Bordeaux Eurostar service, how fast is the route around Paris? I only ask because I once took a Libourne-Lille TGV (which I think have been discontinued) and it took a bit longer than Libourne-Paris-Ligne 4-Paris-Lille. If I remember correctly we left the LGV Atlantique at Massy and then trundled extremely slowly around the southern suburbs, through Orly, before rejoining something more akin to a high speed line just south of Créteil and then onwards to the Interconnexion. Is this still the case? What impact would it have on the end to end time?

 

[Bald Rick]

In the case of a proposed London - Bordeaux Eurostar service, how fast is the route around Paris? I only ask because I once took a Libourne-Lille TGV (which I think have been discontinued) and it took a bit longer than Libourne-Paris-Ligne 4-Paris-Lille. If I remember correctly we left the LGV Atlantique at Massy and then trundled extremely slowly around the southern suburbs, through Orly, before rejoining something more akin to a high speed line just south of Créteil and then onwards to the Interconnexion. Is this still the case? What impact would it have on the end to end time?

Yes it’s still the case. Nearly 45 mins for the 25 miles (as the crow flies) / 40 miles by rail from Massy to Marne La Vallée. Non stop St Pancras to Bordeaux would be around 5h. Add 7-10 minutes per stop.

 

[Chester1]

Serious environmental problems indeed aren't only a matter of carbon/climate/etc - there's also resource depletion, pollution, land degradation, etc etc. Since our species overall is living beyond the carrying capacity of one planet, then for long-term survival we need some combination of less "intensive" lifestyles and fewer people. A major change in either would avoid the need to change the other so much! I'm not quite sure how well-founded concerns about the ecosystem relate to a "communitarian socialist society" - especially since the latter is perfectly compatible with high and unsustainable consumption levels. They're quite separate issues - not that I'm saying that a more communitarian and less selfish style of society wouldn't be an improvement on what we have now!

They are not that separate when you look at the views of the Green Party (and certainly groups like Extinction Rebellion). The solutions to climate change just happen to match the type of society they would like. I don't think thats a coincidence and am very skeptical when lifestyle changes are demanded rather than a focus on making our current lifestyle sustainable. I am not denying climate change is an enormous problem, rather that massively reducing short haul foreign holidays would barely make a difference and seems to get priority because of political preferences. Short haul aviation emissions barely register compared with domestic energy and cars.

Yes it’s still the case. Nearly 45 mins for the 25 miles (as the crow flies) / 40 miles by rail from Massy to Marne La Vallée. Non stop St Pancras to Bordeaux would be around 5h. Add 7-10 minutes per stop.

Its a shame that both Toulouse and Irun are currently too far for extensions. I know the infrastructure owners want a service but do you think a seasonal weekend service to Bordeaux would be commercially viable for Eurostar in the next couple of years? Could HS1 offer a reduced access charge specific for seasonal long distance services or would the regulator prohibit it?

 

[Peter Kelford]

In the case of a proposed London - Bordeaux Eurostar service, how fast is the route around Paris? I only ask because I once took a Libourne-Lille TGV (which I think have been discontinued) and it took a bit longer than Libourne-Paris-Ligne 4-Paris-Lille. If I remember correctly we left the LGV Atlantique at Massy and then trundled extremely slowly around the southern suburbs, through Orly, before rejoining something more akin to a high speed line just south of Créteil and then onwards to the Interconnexion. Is this still the case? What impact would it have on the end to end time?

As others have said, it's a suburban/freight line called the Grande Ceinture (outer ring). There's no HS line except between the LGV Nord and PSE (Interconnexion Est). A project is underway for the next 20 years though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Its a shame that both Toulouse and Irun are currently too far for extensions. I know the infrastructure owners want a service but do you think a seasonal weekend service to Bordeaux would be commercially viable for Eurostar in the next couple of years? Could HS1 offer a reduced access charge specific for seasonal long distance services or would the regulator prohibit it?

HS1 *could* offer a reduced charge, but why would they? It won’t make much difference compared to the tunnel charge (which is much larger), and the RFF charges to get all the way down to Bordeaux.

I’ve said many times before, that a Summer weekend service to Bordeaux might just work; it would need to stop at least once at Ashford / Ebbsfleet, and I suspect at least once more in France, if only for crew, probably St Pierre de Corps for the Loire valley. That would make it about 5h30 out, and 6h30 back with the hour in Lille.

 

[Chester1]

HS1 *could* offer a reduced charge, but why would they? It won’t make much difference compared to the tunnel charge (which is much larger), and the RFF charges to get all the way down to Bordeaux.

I’ve said many times before, that a Summer weekend service to Bordeaux might just work; it would need to stop at least once at Ashford / Ebbsfleet, and I suspect at least once more in France, if only for crew, probably St Pierre de Corps for the Loire valley. That would make it about 5h30 out, and 6h30 back with the hour in Lille.

If they all agree to lower their charges together then it would make the service more viable. For maybe 16 paths each way a year it might be worth it as a profile boosting effort and one that might not be viable with access charges much higher than the marginal infrastructure cost. Is the French side publically owned? The politics of a direct London - Loire Valley - Bordeaux service would be positive.

 

[Bald Rick]

If they all agree to lower their charges together then it would make the service more viable. For maybe 16 paths each way a year it might be worth it as a profile boosting effort and one that might not be viable with access charges much higher than the marginal infrastructure cost. Is the French side publically owned? The politics of a direct London - Loire Valley - Bordeaux service would be positive.

It would need to be similar to the Avignon service - 3/4 return trips a week.

Eurotunnel won’t drop their charges for one train. Note that the Eurotunnel access charge makes up almost the total fare on the cheapest Eurostar fares.

 

[gallafent]

The other main thing is that it doesn't necessarily reduce flights. On the super-busy Beijing-Shanghai route, 50+ flights a day run this route on top of the HSR services.

— not necessarily perhaps, but in reality apparently it has, particularly on the shorter routes:

"The spread of high-speed rail has forced domestic airlines in China to slash airfare and cancel regional flights.[169] The impact of high-speed rail on air travel is most acute for intercity trips under 500 km (310 mi).[169] By the spring of 2011, commercial airline service had been completely halted on previously popular routes such as Wuhan-Nanjing, Wuhan-Nanchang, Xi’an-Zhengzhou and Chengdu-Chongqing.[169] Flights on routes over 1,500 km (930 mi) are generally unaffected.[169] As of October 2013, high-speed rail was carrying twice as many passengers each month as the country's airlines." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Impact_on_airlines

Many internal flights in the UK are over a comparable distance.

 

[BigCj34]

— not necessarily perhaps, but in reality apparently it has, particularly on the shorter routes:

"The spread of high-speed rail has forced domestic airlines in China to slash airfare and cancel regional flights.[169] The impact of high-speed rail on air travel is most acute for intercity trips under 500 km (310 mi).[169] By the spring of 2011, commercial airline service had been completely halted on previously popular routes such as Wuhan-Nanjing, Wuhan-Nanchang, Xi’an-Zhengzhou and Chengdu-Chongqing.[169] Flights on routes over 1,500 km (930 mi) are generally unaffected.[169] As of October 2013, high-speed rail was carrying twice as many passengers each month as the country's airlines." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#Impact_on_airlines

Many internal flights in the UK are over a comparable distance.

Wonder if Ryanair's decision to pull out of London - Scotland routes (leaving domestic routes limited to GB and NI flights) because of increased competitiveness by rail? As it stands compared to EasyJet, with a railcard the train would often win out when the cost of transfers is factored in, though not so much without one. Of course with domestic routes a passenger has to pay APD both ways!

 

[Bald Rick]

Wonder if Ryanair's decision to pull out of London - Scotland routes (leaving domestic routes limited to GB and NI flights) because of increased competitiveness by rail? As it stands compared to EasyJet, with a railcard the train would often win out when the cost of transfers is factored in, though not so much without one. Of course with domestic routes a passenger has to pay APD both ways!

No, Ryanair pulled out of London - Scotland because compared to the competition they are awful*



* Personal opinion, based on personal experience, with no other evidence to support.