Eurostar possible expansion?

[StephenHunter]

Seems perfectly doable for a sleeper train - just allow boarding well early and departure well late.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure if there's capacity on the PSE. Going by classic line would be possible though.

If there is the capacity between Lyon and London in the summer then surely its a matter of timetabling during the rest of the year?

 

[Bald Rick]

Not much leftover capacity. Any capacity is likely to be on an as-available basis and might well be inconvenient- fancy a slot at 6:20 in the morning, thus leaving the UK at 2:45 am?, or a late-evening 21:30 departure from Lyon getting back to the UK in the small hours of the morning?

A 2130 from Lyon would be ‘interdite’ unless it went on the conventional line. In which case it would be arriving London sometime around 0800.

Similarly an 0620 slot on LGV SE would have to go conventional from Calais, which means a London departure around midnight.

 

[StephenHunter]

A 2130 from Lyon would be ‘interdite’ unless it went on the conventional line. In which case it would be arriving London sometime around 0800.

Similarly an 0620 slot on LGV SE would have to go conventional from Calais, which means a London departure around midnight.

Those are entirely reasonable times for sleeper services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Those are entirely reasonable times for sleeper services.

I’m ure they are. But we have done to death why sleeper services aren’t going to happen between London and Europe.

Also, as far as I’m aware, no sleeper (or even overnight) services use any high speed line in Europe. Certainly not in France, Spain, Belgium or the Netherlands.

 

[Peter Kelford]

A 2130 from Lyon would be ‘interdite’ unless it went on the conventional line. In which case it would be arriving London sometime around 0800.

Seems perfectly doable for a sleeper train - just allow boarding well early and departure well late.

Those are entirely reasonable times for sleeper services.

Sleeper trains do not use HS lines. It would require 100% conventional line use. It would lead to 4hrs+ from Lyon to Paris, the best part of 1 hour for the Grande Ceinture, plus another 3 hours from Paris to the Channel. Getting into the UK 30 mins later at around 5 am to get into London at the earliest at 7 am. Alternatively, the train could leave at about 10:30 pm and arrive by 8 am. This train would have to be 400m+ long, built to British loading gauge and be able to be hauled by a British loco, most likely a Cl. 73, 68, 88 or 67

P.S. 21:30 is rather tight as it would get into Paris just before line closing at 23:59. If the line closes at 2300, that that would mean the train leaving at 20:30.

 

[tasky]

A 2130 from Lyon would be ‘interdite’ unless it went on the conventional line. In which case it would be arriving London sometime around 0800.

Similarly an 0620 slot on LGV SE would have to go conventional from Calais, which means a London departure around midnight.

Sleeper trains do not use HS lines. It would require 100% conventional line use. It would lead to 4hrs+ from Lyon to Paris, the best part of 1 hour for the Grande Ceinture, plus another 3 hours from Paris to the Channel. Getting into the UK 30 mins later at around 5 am to get into London at the earliest at 7 am. Alternatively, the train could leave at about 10:30 pm and arrive by 8 am. This train would have to be 400m+ long, built to British loading gauge and be able to be hauled by a British loco, most likely a Cl. 73, 68, 88 or 67

P.S. 21:30 is rather tight as it would get into Paris just before line closing at 23:59. If the line closes at 2300, that that would mean the train leaving at 20:30.

These both sound pretty good to be honest

 

[Chester1]

These both sound pretty good to be honest

I would use it if it where introduced but I couldn't agree with introducing it in the first place. Once Montpellier to Perpignan high speed line eventually opens London to Barcelona will be viable as a seasonal service like Marseille. If taxpayer funding became available then it would be better value to fund a normal service daily, all year round, rather than introduce a sleeper.

 

[StephenHunter]

Why is there that 400 metres rule anyway?

 

[ainsworth74]

Why is there that 400 metres rule anyway?

So that in the event of an evacuation the train will always been next to an entrance to the service tunnel. The links between the rail tunnels and the service tunnel are 375m apart.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Why is there that 400 metres rule anyway?

The exits to the evacuation tunnel are 375m apart. Rather than have people walk in the cess, they'd rather the only walking took place on the train itself.

These both sound pretty good to be honest

But without a bed. You'd be stuck in a seat all night.

I would use it if it where introduced but I couldn't agree with introducing it in the first place. Once Montpellier to Perpignan high speed line eventually opens London to Barcelona will be viable as a seasonal service like Marseille. If taxpayer funding became available then it would be better value to fund a normal service daily, all year round, rather than introduce a sleeper.

Introducing a sleeper would go via the pre-existing lines anyway and so wouldn't need to await the HS line's opening

 

[Chester1]

Introducing a sleeper would go via the pre-existing lines anyway and so wouldn't need to await the HS line's opening

I was refering to a day service once the line eventually opens. A seasonal commercial service like Marseille would be viable. In that situation it would be a better use of taxpayer money to subidise it to run daily all year round than subsidise a sleeper. If a sleeper was introduced it would be killed off by day time competition once the high speed gap gets closed, therefore the future of the high speed line is very relevant to any sleeper. At £300 subisidy per passenger its a non starter anyway!

 

[Bald Rick]

I would use it if it where introduced but I couldn't agree with introducing it in the first place. Once Montpellier to Perpignan high speed line eventually opens London to Barcelona will be viable as a seasonal service like Marseille. If taxpayer funding became available then it would be better value to fund a normal service daily, all year round, rather than introduce a sleeper.

I’m not sure Barcelona would be viable. It would be over 7hr with one stop, and it would most likely need more than that in order to fill up the train; say Avignon TGV, Montpellier Sud & Perpignan. So more like 7h30 out, 8h30 back That implies a departure around 0600, and a return to London at midnight. Even then, it’s a long way to fill up a train with 900 people.

 

[Glenn1969]

Don't forget Spain is a top destination year round for British tourists including the Catalan Costas Brava and Dorada. Would there not be a market for a tourist service to Barcelona?

 

[Meerkat]

Don't forget Spain is a top destination year round for British tourists including the Catalan Costas Brava and Dorada. Would there not be a market for a tourist service to Barcelona?

It’s cheap holidays and stags! Even those who spend big on hotels etc tend to shop for really cheap flights. Barcelona is mainly short breaks too - you don’t want to spend 14 hours on trains for a long weekend!

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't forget Spain is a top destination year round for British tourists including the Catalan Costas Brava and Dorada. Would there not be a market for a tourist service to Barcelona?

It’s also a business destination.

However it’s just not going to happen. To put it into context, Paris - Barcelona direct is about an hour quicker than London - Barcelona would be IF the Montpellier - Perpignan LGV is built (and the latest estimate is that it won’t be complete until 2038); and 2 how urs quicker than the return journey.

There are around 20 flights a day between the cities - and two trains. Those trains presominantly serve The towns and cities on the south coast from Nîmes to Perpignan. Barcelona is a worthwhile extension. Clearly I’d don’t have the passenger numbers, but I’d be surprised if there were more than 100 end to end passengers per train. Even though the Londo;market is bigger, it’s not that much bigger, and that sort of number is simply not viable.

The only chance of it happening is if he U.K. joins Schengen and/or drops all the security checks such that the train can be used for domestic journeys on the continent.

 

[30907]

It’s also a business destination.

However it’s just not going to happen. To put it into context, Paris - Barcelona direct is about an hour quicker than London - Barcelona would be IF the Montpellier - Perpignan LGV is built (and the latest estimate is that it won’t be complete until 2038); and 2 how urs quicker than the return journey.

There are around 20 flights a day between the cities - and two trains. Those trains presominantly serve The towns and cities on the south coast from Nîmes to Perpignan. Barcelona is a worthwhile extension. Clearly I’d don’t have the passenger numbers, but I’d be surprised if there were more than 100 end to end passengers per train. Even though the Londo;market is bigger, it’s not that much bigger, and that sort of number is simply not viable.

The only chance of it happening is if he U.K. joins Schengen and/or drops all the security checks such that the train can be used for domestic journeys on the continent.

I broadly agree with you.
But when the trains are a double unit from Perpignan (not always, I know!) and the last stop is Valence that means a good volume through from Spain to Paris.

 

[Bald Rick]

I broadly agree with you.
But when the trains are a double unit from Perpignan (not always, I know!) and the last stop is Valence that means a good volume through from Spain to Paris.

I’m not sure there is a good volume. Most of the passengers will be from France. There’s only 6 direct trains a day from Perpignan to Paris, and 2 of those are the Barcelona extensions. All of them call Narbonne, Beziers, Montpellier, Nîmes and Valence. Most also call at Sete and Agde. These trains provide almost all the service from the South Coast west of Montpellier to Paris.

 

[Chester1]

I’m not sure Barcelona would be viable. It would be over 7hr with one stop, and it would most likely need more than that in order to fill up the train; say Avignon TGV, Montpellier Sud & Perpignan. So more like 7h30 out, 8h30 back That implies a departure around 0600, and a return to London at midnight. Even then, it’s a long way to fill up a train with 900 people.

Those timings are just about workable for a seasonal service or a subidised all year service. Its an hour each way longer than Marseille which is a smaller destination.

It’s also a business destination.

However it’s just not going to happen. To put it into context, Paris - Barcelona direct is about an hour quicker than London - Barcelona would be IF the Montpellier - Perpignan LGV is built (and the latest estimate is that it won’t be complete until 2038); and 2 how urs quicker than the return journey.

There are around 20 flights a day between the cities - and two trains. Those trains presominantly serve The towns and cities on the south coast from Nîmes to Perpignan. Barcelona is a worthwhile extension. Clearly I’d don’t have the passenger numbers, but I’d be surprised if there were more than 100 end to end passengers per train. Even though the Londo;market is bigger, it’s not that much bigger, and that sort of number is simply not viable.

The only chance of it happening is if he U.K. joins Schengen and/or drops all the security checks such that the train can be used for domestic journeys on the continent.

There are two options that might be workable in the long term.

Why not allow intermediate journeys between Lille and Barcelona? Immigration checks will be irrelevant southbound once train is in France and northbound everyone would need to detrain at Lille anyway. It may not be acceptable now but it sounds like there would be many years for policy to be changed before Montpellier - Perpignan opens.

The Ski train generates sufficient income to pay for passport controls in the Alps so that might be enough to pay for them at Barcelona, Avignon and Lyon. That would reduce the return journey by an hour or so. If a London Barcelona service was introduced it would probably have to be in replace of the Marseille service or alternating with to avoid too much capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Those timings are just about workable for a seasonal service or a subidised all year service. Its an hour each way longer than Marseille which is a smaller destination.



There are two options that might be workable in the long term.

Why not allow intermediate journeys between Lille and Barcelona? Immigration checks will be irrelevant southbound once train is in France and northbound everyone would need to detrain at Lille anyway. It may not be acceptable now but it sounds like there would be many years for policy to be changed before Montpellier - Perpignan opens.

The Ski train generates sufficient income to pay for passport controls in the Alps so that might be enough to pay for them at Barcelona, Avignon and Lyon. That would reduce the return journey by an hour or so. If a London Barcelona service was introduced it would probably have to be in replace of the Marseille service or alternating with to avoid too much capacity.

It would be a lot more than an hour extra to BCN vs MRS. Maybe +2h, probably more. It’s an extra 200 miles.

The ski train generates income by having high fares. £400 return is a typical price, even when booking a long way out. Compare to a typical Barcelona return flight of £50-£80.

 

[Chester1]

It would be a lot more than an hour extra to BCN vs MRS. Maybe +2h, probably more. It’s an extra 200 miles.

The ski train generates income by having high fares. £400 return is a typical price, even when booking a long way out. Compare to a typical Barcelona return flight of £50-£80.

You suggested 7 hours 30 minutes outbound would be possible if the final high speed line gets built. The Marseille services is 6 hours 30 minutes outbound.

£400? Surely only on the very busiest weekends? A return journey 22-29th Feb is £264. Marseille service fills a niche and competes against low air fares. There are return flights from London Airports to Marseille on Saturday to Saturdays in June for £40 excluding baggage.

I agree its not viable now but if it could be done at 7 hours 30 minutes each way then it would be a viable journey time. If intermediate journeys where allowed or passport controls built at all stations then its market share would need to be very low to fill 900 seats. Looks like there are about 5500 seats a day between London and Barcelona in June.

 

[Peter Kelford]

However it’s just not going to happen. To put it into context, Paris - Barcelona direct is about an hour quicker than London - Barcelona would be IF the Montpellier - Perpignan LGV is built (and the latest estimate is that it won’t be complete until 2038); and 2 how urs quicker than the return journey.

Likely even faster, more towards 2 to 3hrs quicker

 

[quantinghome]

I think the main thing stopping Eurostar going further afield is the low point to point speeds of the 'high speed' lines east of Brussels.

Brussels-Amsterdam/Cologne takes nearly two hours to cover a distance a little over 200km.
Brussels-Berlin is a 6h40 slog covering about the same distance as Paris-Marseille which takes just over 3 hours.

Considering these are mostly journeys on new high speed or upgraded lines the average speed is risible, a little over 100km/h. If mainland European countries were serious about having a proper high speed network the average speed between major cities should be 200 to 250km/h. If this was done then Eurostar to Berlin, Prague, Munich or Milan would be as viable as Marseille.

 

[Bald Rick]

You suggested 7 hours 30 minutes outbound would be possible if the final high speed line gets built. The Marseille services is 6 hours 30 minutes outbound.

7h30 to BCN would be with one stop only, which would probably have to be Lyon St Exupery for crew. I can’t see how this would be viable for passenger numbers. The 6h30 to MRS now includes 3 stops, one of which is quite a diversion off the LGV to get to Lyon PD. This is done to fill the seats, and I presume for a crew change there. If a BCN train needed to do that as well, it would be over 8hrs.

 

[Meole]

I’d argue that 2h on a plane is far more comfortable than 12h on a train (seated or sleeper).

The ability to fly in and out of a city the same day after concluding business is rather more important than 24 hours in comfortable train seats !

 

[Chester1]

7h30 to BCN would be with one stop only, which would probably have to be Lyon St Exupery for crew. I can’t see how this would be viable for passenger numbers. The 6h30 to MRS now includes 3 stops, one of which is quite a diversion off the LGV to get to Lyon PD. This is done to fill the seats, and I presume for a crew change there. If a BCN train needed to do that as well, it would be over 8hrs.

Lyon St Exupery might make it easier to sort out passport controls with French officials being shared with the airport. That would remove the need for a stop at Lille and save an hour on the return leg. It would need to stop at Avignon TGV for interchange with local services, especially if it replaced Marseille services, that means 3 new passport facilities. London - Lyon SE - Avignon TGV - Barcelona would take just over 7 and a half hours? Its doable. It would be a comparable time to the return leg from Marseille but without the inconvenience of needing to get off and back on the train at Lille. In the long term the climate change conscious market will grow and the service would need 20% of the current end to end market to be full, less with Lyon and Avignon passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lyon St Exupery might make it easier to sort out passport controls with French officials being shared with the airport. That would remove the need for a stop at Lille and save an hour on the return leg. It would need to stop at Avignon TGV for interchange with local services, especially if it replaced Marseille services, that means 3 new passport facilities. London - Lyon SE - Avignon TGV - Barcelona would take just over 7 and a half hours? Its doable. It would be a comparable time to the return leg from Marseille but without the inconvenience of needing to get off and back on the train at Lille. In the long term the climate change conscious market will grow and the service would need 20% of the current end to end market to be full, less with Lyon and Avignon passengers.

20% is a huge proportion in this context. It’s not so long ago that rail’s market share of London - Glasgow was 10%, with a 5 hour journey time and trains every 1-2 hours.

 

[Ianno87]

Lyon St Exupery might make it easier to sort out passport controls with French officials being shared with the airport. That would remove the need for a stop at Lille and save an hour on the return leg. It would need to stop at Avignon TGV for interchange with local services, especially if it replaced Marseille services, that means 3 new passport facilities. London - Lyon SE - Avignon TGV - Barcelona would take just over 7 and a half hours? Its doable. It would be a comparable time to the return leg from Marseille but without the inconvenience of needing to get off and back on the train at Lille. In the long term the climate change conscious market will grow and the service would need 20% of the current end to end market to be full, less with Lyon and Avignon passengers.

Lyon St Exupery at least has 4 platforms, so holding a Eurostar for an extended period in one of them ought not to be a major capacity issue. The big thing would be adding in Lille-style segregation of one platform when required by a Eurostar.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lyon St Exupery at least has 4 platforms, so holding a Eurostar for an extended period in one of them ought not to be a major capacity issue. The big thing would be adding in Lille-style segregation of one platform when required by a Eurostar.

As far as I can remember, it has 3 LGV platforms (with tracks along side!) with provision for a fourth. Plus two through lines. There’s also the tram platform.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I think the main thing stopping Eurostar going further afield is the low point to point speeds of the 'high speed' lines east of Brussels.

Brussels-Amsterdam/Cologne takes nearly two hours to cover a distance a little over 200km.
Brussels-Berlin is a 6h40 slog covering about the same distance as Paris-Marseille which takes just over 3 hours.

Germany basically has no HS network. The ICE is equivalent to our 'HS' services.

Lyon St Exupery at least has 4 platforms, so holding a Eurostar for an extended period in one of them ought not to be a major capacity issue. The big thing would be adding in Lille-style segregation of one platform when required by a Eurostar.

The additional platform (not yet existent) is on the sens impair (down line). The sens pair already has both platforms. It shouldn't be too big an issue though. In the worst case, the train could reverse out towards the country end. A point has been implemented as a catch point, there is provision for an additional track thus. Whilst challenging, implementing screens is not impossible.