Eurostar E300 replacements?

[Mgameing123]

The TGV Duplexes and Ms would only be suitable for Paris to Brussels and Rhein-Ruhr services given that they have low platform doors which would not match the high platforms of the Netherlands and UK. Unless there is some sort of reorganisation where the Paris to Rhein-Ruhr services are integrated with another service offering that also uses double-deck TGVs, rolling stock capable of running into the Netherlands would also have to be used on these services to prevent the creation of a micro-fleet.


Nowadays I don't think there are any Thalys services that can get away with being just 200m long. With recent growth in international high speed passenger numbers and Thalys services having the same fleet size they did 25 years ago its not uncommon for trains to sell out a month or two in advance, even outside of the peak June, July and August holiday season.

Eurostar platforms aren't at National Rail height.

 

[HSTEd]

Worth noting that TGV M has ~8MW in a 200m set with shortened power cars. A Class 373 has only ~12.2MW on a 400m set.

I'm fairly confident they could build a 400m TGV M formation and achieve sufficient performance for the low speeds on LGV Nord, if they wish. It would likely involve two lengthened power cars and powered bogies under the end trailers.

Additionally, given that the TGV M has a lift for wheelchairs to reach the lower deck anyway, I can't see there being any hard limit on platform height.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Worth noting that TGV M has ~8MW in a 200m set with shortened power cars. A Class 373 has only ~12.2MW on a 400m set.

I'm fairly confident they could build a 400m TGV M formation and achieve sufficient performance for the low speeds on LGV Nord, if they wish. It would likely involve two lengthened power cars and powered bogies under the end trailers.

Additionally, given that the TGV M has a lift for wheelchairs to reach the lower deck anyway, I can't see there being any hard limit on platform height.

Small tangent but given the French love their power cars could we see a mid-consist power car with a through corridor? L’APT Trans Manche, if you will?

 

[Snow1964]

Worth noting that TGV M has ~8MW in a 200m set with shortened power cars. A Class 373 has only ~12.2MW on a 400m set.

The standard formation is different to TGV duplex, on TGV-M the power cars are about 3m shorter, and each trailer is about metre shorter. But there are 9 trailers instead of 8, so overall length remains about 202m.

Its modular design so could have double power cars each end (with inner one not needing a cab) and effectively 9+9 trailers between.

The previous (Euroduplex) version was rated at 9.28MW (12,445 HP) on 25kv, but only 6.8MW (9120HP) on 15kv 16.7hz systems in Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc. On 1500v dc it is only 3.68MW but of course speeds are lower.

So looking likely that 400m version will get something between 12.5 and 16MW

 

[Trainbike46]

Assuming 200m sets
If they can do Double decker then TGV M

If they can't (I think due to platforms in NL) then Velaro units may be better as you have more passenger space as no power cars

The Netherlands has 760mm platforms, in contrast with France's 550 mm

The Netherlands has double decker trains does it not? Any double decker trains that are within normal European limits should be fine to run Dutch routes

The Netherlands has double deckers, however, they have the doors on a middle deck above the bogies, while the double-decker TGV have the doors on the bottom floor, so ~210mm too low for Dutch platforms. It may be possible to design around this challenge though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

Eurostar platforms aren't at National Rail height.

the Eurostar platforms in the UK are at 550mm, matching with France', right?

 

[zwk500]

The Netherlands has 760mm platforms, in contrast with France's 550 mm

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

the Eurostar platforms in the UK are at 550mm, matching with France', right?

HS1 international platforms are 760mm, so any solution for Eurostar on HS1 should be able to work with NL. Page 75 of: https://highspeed1.co.uk/media/3rameh4t/2013-february-hs1-new-operator-guide-2.pdf

 

[43096]

Small tangent but given the French love their power cars could we see a mid-consist power car with a through corridor? L’APT Trans Manche, if you will?

The standard formation is different to TGV duplex, on TGV-M the power cars are about 3m shorter, and each trailer is about metre shorter. But there are 9 trailers instead of 8, so overall length remains about 202m.

Its modular design so could have double power cars each end (with inner one not needing a cab) and effectively 9+9 trailers between.

Or just couple two ~200m sets in multiple when needed. That way E* can have a common fleet of trains across both "red" and "blue" routes.

 

[vuzzeho]

Might've been mentioned but could Eurostar consider the Hitachi Zefiros (same as HS2 trains)? Obviously, one that works with multiple power systems and signalling systems, but I've heard that they're popular with passengers. Also, if UK classic-compatible could allow for Regional Eurostar revived (although I fully know how unlikely this is)

 

[Trainbike46]

Might've been mentioned but could Eurostar consider the Hitachi Zefiros (same as HS2 trains)? Obviously, one that works with multiple power systems and signalling systems, but I've heard that they're popular with passengers. Also, if UK classic-compatible could allow for Regional Eurostar revived (although I fully know how unlikely this is)

UK classic-compatible sets are unlikely, as they'll be more expensive and offer less capacity. I think it is quite clear that eurostar has no intention of ever running services outside HS1 in the UK, so it seems highly unlikely to accept such a design compromise

 

[Sorcerer]

Might've been mentioned but could Eurostar consider the Hitachi Zefiros (same as HS2 trains)? Obviously, one that works with multiple power systems and signalling systems, but I've heard that they're popular with passengers. Also, if UK classic-compatible could allow for Regional Eurostar revived (although I fully know how unlikely this is)

Regional Eurostar probably won't be happening in our lifetimes, especially with the cutbacks to HS2 no longer permitting Birmingham-Paris in three hours or Manchester-Paris in four (even then it would likely be built to European gauge rather than classic British loading gauge). Therefore any Zefiro will likely be an off-the-shelf design such as the Frecciarossa 1000 with modifications to be compatible with the relevant signalling systems (notably TVM430). Personally I'd quite like a Eurostar Zefiro or even an AGV since I have a preference for multiple units over power cars like the TGV M stock others have been suggesting.

 

[signed]

with modifications to be compatible with the relevant signalling systems (notably TVM430)

The FR1000 does run on LGV Sud-Est and those versions are therfore TVM430 compatible.

But, that would be moot, as LGV Nord, HS1 and the Channel Tunnel are due to have/are currently having their TVM equiment withdrawn for their conversion to ETCS, of course that's bar diversions (though those diversions would likely involve KVB instead)

 

[Sorcerer]

The FR1000 does run on LGV Sud-Est and those versions are therfore TVM430 compatible.

But, that would be moot, as LGV Nord, HS1 and Channel Tunnel are due to have their TVM equiment withdrawn for their conversion to ETCS, of course that's bar diversions (though those diversions would likely involve KVB instead)

Oh yes, that's correct, so the FR1000 doesn't even require additional modifications which gives it another advantage. As for ETCS, I thought that was the standard for European high-speed trains but I must admit to being poorly informed about European signalling.

 

[signed]

As for ETCS, I thought that was the standard for European high-speed trains

It's the end goal, but ERTMS (the englobing initiative) it is absolutely far from being universal.

All LGV, HSL-1 in BE and HS1 run on the French homecooked TVM (Transmission Voie Machine) though parts are being upgraded to ERTMS as we speak. Most rail lines are at some rates of implementation.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's the end goal, but ERTMS (the englobing initiative) it is absolutely far from being universal

I stand corrected then, thank you.

 

[zwk500]

It's the end goal, but ERTMS (the englobing initiative) it is absolutely far from being universal.

All LGV, HSL-1 in BE and HS1 run on the French homecooked TVM (Transmission Voie Machine) though parts are being upgraded to ERTMS as we speak. Most rail lines are at some rates of implementation.

Do you have a good link to follow progress on the LGV Nord/HSL-1 ETCS L2 fitment? I think the Chunnel is being fitted with LGV Nord or shortly after, but HS1 will be converted last as it's interlocking is newer than the rest of the 'three capitals' triangle.

 

[signed]

Do you have a good link to follow progress on the LGV Nord/HSL-1 ETCS L2 fitment?

No, the only roadmap I can see is from the following image from SNCF Réseau : (but that's probably a good idea for another thread, since it's off-topic here)

Source : https://www.ville-rail-transports.c...ferroviaire-pourquoi-la-france-est-en-retard/ (full article is behind paywall). Which puts the LGV Nord (probably HSL-1/Chunnel as well, I don't know) in a 2029-33 date

 

[zwk500]

No, the only roadmap I can see is from the following image from SNCF Réseau : (but that's probably a good idea for another thread, since it's off-topic here)

Source : https://www.ville-rail-transports.c...ferroviaire-pourquoi-la-france-est-en-retard/ (full article is behind paywall). Which puts the LGV Nord (probably HSL-1/Chunnel as well, I don't know) in a 2029-33 date

Thanks, I have created the new thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/three-capitals-hsl-triangle-etcs-fitment.276868/

 

[popeter45]

UK classic-compatible sets are unlikely, as they'll be more expensive and offer less capacity. I think it is quite clear that eurostar has no intention of ever running services outside HS1 in the UK, so it seems highly unlikely to accept such a design compromise

even if rare, divert capability (even as a drag) for stuff like the ETCS conversion work could be useful if it didnt impact day to day operations when using HS1, and less of a cost impact if using existing HS2 design

 

[zwk500]

even if rare, divert capability (even as a drag) for stuff like the ETCS conversion work could be useful if it didnt impact day to day operations when using HS1, and less of a cost impact if using existing HS2 design

Committing to a classic-compatible train for 30-40 years to facilitate in the region of 2 weeks of disruptive engineering work seems a bit of a silly spend of money.

 

[signed]

and less of a cost impact if using existing HS2 design

Do we really want another run of horrible trains by ordering them for outside of HS2

There are only 3 options

- TGV M - Question of duplexes / 400m sets
- Some kind of e320 successor - Probably the most cost-effective and most efficient way to go, but would it be as bad of a ride in the new kinds
- Get a off-the-shelf FR1000 - can it run 400m set, as they basically never do in either Italy or France

The most unlikely option would be a 320kph version of the Stadler Giruno. Let's just hope they don't go for the cheap route (looking at you Talgo)

 

[popeter45]

(looking at you Talgo)

dont give them idea, 3+2 standard. 2+2 plus and 2+1 premier

 

[signed]

dont give them idea, 3+2 standard. 2+2 plus and 2+1 premier

To be fair, I absolutely don't see SNCF ordering from Talgo due the massive feud with Renfe and the friend friend relationship with Alstom. SNCF hasn't, and is probably unlikely to, ordered Regiolis since the platform was given to CAF either

 

[martin2345uk]

I’ll eat my hat if we don’t end up with the TGV-M.

 

[Bald Rick]

All LGV, HSL-1 in BE and HS1 run on the French homecooked TVM (Transmission Voie Machine) though parts are being upgraded to ERTMS as we speak. Most rail lines are at some rates of implementation.

As you can see from the map, the newer LGVs all run on ETCS, in the case of LGV-Est for 17 years and counting.

 

[43096]

Do we really want another run of horrible trains by ordering them for outside of HS2

There are only 3 options

- TGV M - Question of duplexes / 400m sets
- Some kind of e320 successor - Probably the most cost-effective and most efficient way to go, but would it be as bad of a ride in the new kinds
- Get a off-the-shelf FR1000 - can it run 400m set, as they basically never do in either Italy or France

The most unlikely option would be a 320kph version of the Stadler Giruno. Let's just hope they don't go for the cheap route (looking at you Talgo)

Why are you fixated on 400m sets? This order is to cover both the blue and red Eurostar routes, so a common fleet is the most sensible route to take. So an order for ~200m sets, used in pairs where needed.

I’ll eat my hat if we don’t end up with the TGV-M.

Agreed, that is the most likely option.

 

[signed]

so a common fleet is the most sensible route to take. So an order for ~200m sets, used in pairs where needed.

I do agree