Eurostar E300 replacements?

[signed]

On-train border controls have some advantages IMHO (no need for specific infrastructure is the big one and the fact that nobody can exit/escape) although the main worry would be the inefficiency of such a thing (how many BO would you need to scan 900+ passengers twice in less than an hour (for a Brussels/Paris service) without any eGate or other systems. On the other side, apart from stopping at ebbsfleet, that would be even harder

Having to force disembark passengers at Lille would probably make a lot of headache for the French (unruly passengers, risk of cleared people sneaking out...), for the UK (if you need to conduct a interview) and for Eurostar (having to make sure everyone that need to disembark have disembarked and probably having to deal with sending them back from where they came from could cause a lot of delays)

 

[FlyingPotato]

I've been discussing this with friends

And I think
If Eurostar decides for 200m new stock
They shouldn't do TGV trains unless they are duplex as single deck trains are horrific for space compared to a 200m mus

The 200m mu trains I could see being feasible are AGVs, half length versions of e320s (or a velaro Novo esc) or a Zeifro
I could see a Zeifro being feasible as Alstom owns part of the production

However this is only if Eurostar went for 200m stock.

I don't know if they will and as such it's just speculation / opinion

 

[signed]

As per Wikipedia, the 375m Channel Tunnel rule seems to be still in force. Finding those rules is basically impossible, so I don't know if it's still the case.

However this is only if Eurostar went for 200m stock.

If it isn't still the case, 200m makes little sense apart from the added flexibility, which, in the Blue services, it just doesn't need (I don't see where a split could be worth occurring).

A 400m stock is very much what should happen (either on a reorder of e320 Velaros, or a whole new stock)/

My speculative opinion is

• If E* Blue gets a new order, it will get a new order of e320 for fleet commonality and economies of scale, sadly it just makes the most sense.
• E* Red will get tri-tension/quadri-tension Avelia stock derivative from the TGV M because of SNCF.

 

[FlyingPotato]

My original thinking was the M, but I don't believe they can run to the Netherlands due to platform height restrictions.


I think most honesty for 400m trains it will be Siemens overall or some sort of AGV

 

[Sorcerer]

I don't expect Eurostar to opt for 200m long trains with it's blue operations simply because they can get 400m long units which would make the most of the limited space at St Pancras. I remember hearing a while back that it's unlikely to be more e320s even though it would streamline the fleet, but if not that then it could probably be either an AGV or a Zefiro.

 

[43096]

As per Wikipedia, the 375m Channel Tunnel rule seems to be still in force. Finding those rules is basically impossible, so I don't know if it's still the case.

As I have posted before, it never was the case, otherwise the North of London Eurostar sets wouldn't have been able to run through the tunnel, as they were around 320m.

If it isn't still the case, 200m makes little sense apart from the added flexibility, which, in the Blue services, it just doesn't need (I don't see where a split could be worth occurring).

A 400m stock is very much what should happen (either on a reorder of e320 Velaros, or a whole new stock)/

My speculative opinion is

• If E* Blue gets a new order, it will get a new order of e320 for fleet commonality and economies of scale, sadly it just makes the most sense.
• E* Red will get tri-tension/quadri-tension Avelia stock derivative from the TGV M because of SNCF.

In my opinion a completely homogenous fleet makes the most sense to allow maximum flexibility in deployment, crew training and utilisation (e.g. crewing beyond Brussels on both E* service groups) and maintenance. Going double-deck would make sense to increase capacity, so a fleet of ~200m length TGV-M derivatives makes sense, allowing doubling up where needed. The other advantage of TGV-M is that there are options in the existing contract between Alstom and SNCF that could be used, to avoid another instance of damaged French pride if Siemens were to win a separate tender.

 

[signed]

My original thinking was the M, but I don't believe they can run to the Netherlands due to platform height restrictions.

Wouldn't that be an easy fix? I don't think the PBKA had a different height from the traditional réseau sets at the time. Or maybe you mean the TGV-M is higher/lower than the Dutch platforms?

I don't see E* getting something non-Alstom for the red service, especially as they can combine that order with the SNCF when they will need some tri-current sets to replace the aging Réseau sets used on the non-Thalys services to Brussels and whatever would be needed for the single-decker POS sets previously used to Germany.

 

[zwk500]

As per Wikipedia, the 375m Channel Tunnel rule seems to be still in force. Finding those rules is basically impossible, so I don't know if it's still the case.

I have found no reference to this rule in the current IGC rules online. They now refer to EU standards for evacution only.

 

[43096]

Wouldn't that be an easy fix? I don't think the PBKA had a different height from the traditional réseau sets at the time. Or maybe you mean the TGV-M is higher/lower than the Dutch platforms?

I don't see E* getting something non-Alstom for the red service, especially as they can combine that order with the SNCF when they will need some tri-current sets to replace the aging Réseau sets used on the non-Thalys services to Brussels and whatever would be needed for the single-decker POS sets previously used to Germany.

Aren't the power cars from the POS single deck sets being matched up with the trailers from the Réseau-Duplex sets to solve that particular issue?

 

[FlyingPotato]

Wouldn't that be an easy fix? I don't think the PBKA had a different height from the traditional réseau sets at the time. Or maybe you mean the TGV-M is higher/lower than the Dutch platforms?

I don't see E* getting something non-Alstom for the red service, especially as they can combine that order with the SNCF when they will need some tri-current sets to replace the aging Réseau sets used on the non-Thalys services to Brussels and whatever would be needed for the single-decker POS sets previously used to Germany.

I'm talking about the the TGVM duplex Which doesn't fit the platforms

 

[signed]

Aren't the power cars from the POS single deck sets being matched up with the trailers from the Réseau-Duplex sets to solve that particular issue?

Indeed, 13 TGV P-Duplex are to be reformed with a further 6 going to OUIGO

 

[Citybreak1]

When will the contract go out for the new trains? Wonder if they will be like the new ICE ones that would be my first choice.

 

[signed]

https://www.lettreducheminot.fr/transports-urbains/eurostar-veut-acquerir-jusqua-50-trains-a-grande-vitesse/

The article is a bit old now, but it reports concrete plans by Eurostar to get up to 50 200m standard sets

À quoi ressembleront les nouveaux trains d’Eurostar ?


Difficile à dire pour l’heure, car « les éléments détaillés de conception restent à confirmer », selon l’opérateur, dont l’objectif est de mettre en service les premiers nouveaux trains « au début des années 2030 ». Eurostar ajoute que ses clients et son personnel « seront sollicités pour la conception, qui vise à être la plus écoresponsable ». En particulier, le nouveau parc devra avoir « une meilleure performance énergétique » que le parc actuel, objectif assez réaliste lorsque l’on constate les progrès spectaculaires réalisés en la matière depuis la mise en service des rames à remplacer, il y a quelque trois décennies.

What will Eurostar's new trains look like?

Difficult to say at the moment, as “detailed design elements have yet to be confirmed”, according to the operator, whose aim is to put the first new trains into service “in the early 2030s”. Eurostar adds that its customers and staff “will be involved in the design, which aims to be as environmentally responsible as possible”. In particular, the new fleet will have to be “more energy-efficient” than the current one, a fairly realistic objective given the spectacular progress made in this area since the replacement trains were brought into service some three decades ago.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

[Transilien]

https://www.lettreducheminot.fr/transports-urbains/eurostar-veut-acquerir-jusqua-50-trains-a-grande-vitesse/

The article is a bit old now, but it reports concrete plans by Eurostar to get up to 50 200m standard sets

That would be better in my opinion than buying more e320s as they could have a much more flexible fleet with trains being able to do a London run after doing Paris-Brussels for example. Does this mean the 375m rule is not enforced anymore? The e320 can be dedicated to the London runs.

 

[signed]

buying more e320s as they could have a much more flexible fleet with trains being able to do a London run after doing Paris-Brussels for example

I would agree, but I do not see SNCF getting something that is not Alstom on the continental runs.

The main SNCF existing order for 150+ M's is set to finish deployment around 2031, maybe there is the possibility for a few more quadri-voltage units, maybe for 2032.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

Does this mean the 375m rule is not enforced anymore?

The article mentions equivalent numbers. so it may very well be 400m long trains (counting e300 as 2 units). However, again for continental runs, having a single 400m really hurts possible flexibility, a double working of 200m is much more up to reality.

A priori, ce sont 34 rames à un niveau qu’Eurostar doit remplacer d’ici quelques années par 50, mais à y regarder de plus près, du fait que les rames e300 « comptent double » avec leurs 18 voitures, c’est plutôt l’équivalent de 42 trains à grande vitesse « standard » de 200 m qu’il faudra remplacer.

On the face of it, Eurostar will have to replace 34 single-deck trainsets by 50 within the next few years, but on closer inspection, given that the 18-car e300 trainsets “count double”, it's more like the equivalent of 42 “standard” 200 m high-speed trains that will have to be replaced.

 

[Snow1964]

That would be better in my opinion than buying more e320s as they could have a much more flexible fleet with trains being able to do a London run after doing Paris-Brussels for example. Does this mean the 375m rule is not enforced anymore? The e320 can be dedicated to the London runs.

They are basically replacing the old red Thayls sets, and some remaining Eurostar sets built about 1993-1995, which were effectively derivatives of the late 1980s designed Atlantique sets.

My hunch is French will favour a TGV-M derivative, probably a standard quad voltage 9car + 2power car but with slightly different seating layout.

 

[signed]

probably a standard quad voltage 9car + 2power car but with slightly different seating layout.

The main thing would be if double units can run under the tunnel, I haven't seen any specific reason why it wouldn't since they dropped the half-set secable rule.

Else, it would be a matter of can Alstom make a 400m variant of it, power will likely become an issue then.

 

[Snow1964]

Else, it would be a matter of can Alstom make a 400m variant of it, power will likely become an issue then.

In theory could have double power cars at the ends, and both sets of 9 passenger cars as 18 in middle, instead of two trains coupled. Effectively just swapping the formation and moving 2 of 4 power cars from positions 11 & 12 to 2 & 21.

Would probably be marginally cheaper as the inner power cars wouldn't need the cab and nose cone. I assume one pantograph could do both adjoining power cars together.

As it is apparently a modular design, guessing on paper it can be done, but in practice if it better option than flexibility of pair of standard 200m sets I don't actually know.

 

[HSTEd]

SNCF have been throwing around the idea of a 400m Duplex formation for a while.
Worth noting that modern power cars have a lot more horsepower than older ones, so it might not be that necessary to use four power cars.

Especially as the TGV-M's trailers are likely much lighter than the older ones. They can probably get enough performance for LGV Nord and 300kph relatively easily.
The TGV-M's power cars are alos shorter than conventional Duplex ones, if they return them to full length they could get even more power into them.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The evacuation requirements for the Channel Tunnel and the fact that Eurostar deliberately positions itself as a higher-end offering (even in Standard) than a typical train may mean that the Single-Decker is preferred. I agree that 300kph will be an absolute minimum requirement, given the flagship London-Paris run has very high pressure on end-to-end runtime. Eurostar may even want 320 or 350kph, in case LGV Picardie ever comes to fruition.

I thought Picardie was as dead as a dormouse?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

SNCF have been throwing around the idea of a 400m Duplex formation for a while.
Worth noting that modern power cars have a lot more horsepower than older ones, so it might not be that necessary to use four power cars.

Especially as the TGV-M's trailers are likely much lighter than the older ones. They can probably get enough performance for LGV Nord and 300kph relatively easily.
The TGV-M's power cars are alos shorter than conventional Duplex ones, if they return them to full length they could get even more power into them.

Could they not put some extra motors under the carriages?

 

[HSTEd]

Could they not put some extra motors under the carriages?

Potentially, the modern AGV motors are entirely inside the bogies, so they could be installed on Duplex trailers.
They would not provide as much tractive effort as power car motors but you could certainly get four more powered axles (two at each end of the formation), analogously to the Eurostar and the early TGVs.

(EDIT as I forgot which sets had powered trailer bogies)

 

[TheWierdOne]

Potentially, the modern AGV motors are entirely inside the bogies, so they could be installed on Duplex trailers.
They would not provide as much tractive effort as power car motors but you could certainly get four more powered axles (two at each end of the formation), analogously to the Eurostar and the early TGVs.

(EDIT as I forgot which sets had powered trailer bogies)

Could you have the underfloor motors as auxiliaries to help with starting up and any inclines?

 

[185]

Just on Eurostar now, and the rough ride on this Siemens E320 is a little concerning... 184mph and the the train has grounded on the suspension quite a few times. Eurostar's very own Pacer.

 

[Citybreak1]

I have seen the new ICE trains. Would surely make sense for Eurostar to order something similar.

 

[signed]

I have seen the new ICE trains. Would surely make sense for Eurostar to order something similar.

Would it? The e320 seems to be so different to the German versions that I doubt it. And the rough riding shyte that got delivered is not good outlook

Surely the best way forward is the TGV M

 

[FlyingPotato]

Assuming 200m sets
If they can do Double decker then TGV M

If they can't (I think due to platforms in NL) then Velaro units may be better as you have more passenger space as no power cars

 

[TheWierdOne]

Assuming 200m sets
If they can do Double decker then TGV M

If they can't (I think due to platforms in NL) then Velaro units may be better as you have more passenger space as no power cars

The Netherlands has double decker trains does it not? Any double decker trains that are within normal European limits should be fine to run Dutch routes

 

[FlyingPotato]

The Netherlands has double decker trains does it not? Any double decker trains that are within normal European limits should be fine to run Dutch routes

They do have DDs yes, but the platforms are too low for TGV M, at least that's what I've read on here

 

[TheGrew]

Would TGV-M have enough power for a 400m consist?

 

[popeter45]

Would TGV-M have enough power for a 400m consist?

either a TGV-M or new Velaro would be to order specs like the current E320s so if they did order a 400m TGV-M Alstom would spec the power cars to the needs even if that involved modifications to the current design
also as Velaro are still in production nothing bar politics stopping Eurostar ordering more E320's (as they did in 2014) or at least 200m versions