Eurostar E300 replacements?

[Sorcerer]

It's unlikely but would the Stadler SMILE work as a Eurostar rolling stock?

It could be a possibility but I don't expect Eurostar to go with them. I think a cross-channel Stadler would be more likely with SBB's proposal to run London to Geneva services, but I'd bet even that was unlikely since it would only be so many trains per day.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The need to expand is clear, what is not clear is how, either commercially or in terms of space.

There are some possibilities in St Pancras:

1) Turn the platform area (at the end of the tracks) into an arrivals area. You'd only need to put up a few screens and create a small area for Customs, with a secondary check area that can be located almost anywhere else. This would free up a large amount of space, especially if you removed the escalators at that end of the platforms.
2) In parallel, transform the existing check-in area into a joint check-in/security and passport control area. With the rise in automatic border crossings, it should be possible to create some infrastructure that will funnel people through without requiring huge amounts of space. ETIAS registration machines, if required, can be placed somewhere else within the station. The other entrance can also have check-in machines and border control.
3) Extend the departures lounge towards the National Rail ticket office and remove the cafes there.

It shouldn't be too costly to implement these changes, and it would provide quite a lot of additional space. While it would be an architectural disaster, I'd also give serious thought to taking over the public space next to the platforms, as there's quite a lot of room there to put in an additional departures lounge.

I'd also think about things like "trusted traveller" programmes that would allow for them to bypass security, reducing the amount of space needed.

 

[TheWierdOne]

There are some possibilities in St Pancras:

1) Turn the platform area (at the end of the tracks) into an arrivals area. You'd only need to put up a few screens and create a small area for Customs, with a secondary check area that can be located almost anywhere else. This would free up a large amount of space, especially if you removed the escalators at that end of the platforms.
2) In parallel, transform the existing check-in area into a joint check-in/security and passport control area. With the rise in automatic border crossings, it should be possible to create some infrastructure that will funnel people through without requiring huge amounts of space. ETIAS registration machines, if required, can be placed somewhere else within the station. The other entrance can also have check-in machines and border control.
3) Extend the departures lounge towards the National Rail ticket office and remove the cafes there.

It shouldn't be too costly to implement these changes, and it would provide quite a lot of additional space. While it would be an architectural disaster, I'd also give serious thought to taking over the public space next to the platforms, as there's quite a lot of room there to put in an additional departures lounge.

I'd also think about things like "trusted traveller" programmes that would allow for them to bypass security, reducing the amount of space needed.

Would the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority give the go-ahead on a security bypass?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Would the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority give the go-ahead on a security bypass?

There's no reason why not, given the lack of controls on similar tunnels and infrastructure.

 

[Trainbike46]

There's no reason why not, given the lack of controls on similar tunnels and infrastructure.

Other than the highly political reasons not too...

 

[zwk500]

There's no reason why not, given the lack of controls on similar tunnels and infrastructure.

Which other tunnels have comparable governance regulations?

 

[Citybreak1]

The airport style travel should stay. Plenty of space to expand St Pancras. I reckon more hotels around the area would be better. Most airports have alot of choice.

 

[SynthD]

The Kings Cross area has hundreds of hotels, but they aren’t in huge, visibly chain-branded buildings.

 

[Citybreak1]

The Kings Cross area has hundreds of hotels, but they aren’t in huge, visibly chain-branded buildings.

Last time I was down there was a empty space at King’s Cross is there plans to make this a hotel?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Which other tunnels have comparable governance regulations?

None as far as I'm aware, and certainly none with the political implications attached, and none with the fully juxtaposed controls used on the Channel Tunnel. Most places are juxtaposed to one end

On the border controls the only comparison that springs to mind is the rail tunnel between Hong Kong and Shenzhen in China. Due to Hong Kong's special status (not that it's worth much anymore with President Pooh Bear not being a fan of human rights), border controls must take place, but these are conducted for inbound and outbound passengers at West Kowloon at the Hong Kong end. Same situation happened with Geneva Cornavin until the Swiss stopped full enforcement, all controls were done at Geneva with no controls done on passengers at Lyon or Paris.

On the safety side I think the Gotthard base tunnel might be close? But even then that's entirely within Switzerland so it's down to the Swiss government to create the rules, although I assume they at least consult the Italians given that's where a significant portion of the traffic goes to/from.

 

[signed]

The biggest bottleneck is that E* can’t really grow without serving Ashford and Ebbsfleet (and ideally Stratford but that's another can of worms), that is way too much centralisation around St Pancras for a service like that.

 

[LLivery]

I'd put decent money on Ashford and Ebbsfleet being reopened for Int'l trains eventually, but whether it's for *Eurostar* is a different story...

I'd also put decent money on our current border arrangements with the EU not lasting long.

And I'd also put decent money on Alstom winning any tender...

~400m, double deck stock seems the best for greatly increasing capacity and reducing fares on both Schengen and Channel Tunnel routes. What exactly are the restrictions for double deck HS stock in the Netherlands?

Considering SNCF has never bought ~400m double deck stock for TGV routes, maybe it'll be ~200m trains...

 

[Trainbike46]

I'd put decent money on Ashford and Ebbsfleet being reopened for Int'l trains eventually, but whether it's for *Eurostar* is a different story...

I'd also put decent money on our current border arrangements with the EU not lasting long.

And I'd also put decent money on Alstom winning any tender...

~400m, double deck stock seems the best for greatly increasing capacity and reducing fares on both Schengen and Channel Tunnel routes. What exactly are the restrictions for double deck HS stock in the Netherlands?

Apparently an axle-load restriction of 17.5 tons loaded (so passenger and luggage weight has to fit within that).

Which might be doable for a reservation-only train without standing passengers like eurostar, but not for a crush-loaded NS train

This is all based on the Dutch forum quoted further upthread

Considering SNCF has never bought ~400m double deck stock for TGV routes, maybe it'll be ~200m trains...

isn't eurostar the only operator of 400m fixed length trains anywhere? I don't think SNCF having 200m trains means eurostar necessarily won't have 400m trains. But then again, who knows

 

[43096]

Apparently an axle-load restriction of 17.5 tons loaded (so passenger and luggage weight has to fit within that).

ISTR that the original TGV specification - and limit for the LGVs - was an axle-load restriction of 17 tonnes. The power cars were 68 tonnes, in line with this. I'd be surprised if the TGV-M power cars are any heavier.

 

[HSTEd]

isn't eurostar the only operator of 400m fixed length trains anywhere? I don't think SNCF having 200m trains means eurostar necessarily won't have 400m trains. But then again, who knows

No, they are extensively used in China and Japan. They were historically used in Germany until the ICEs were shortened.

 

[supervc-10]

A 'stopping' service, originating in Stratford and calling at places like Ebbsfleet on its way to the continent would be good as a low-cost option - think the equivalent of getting a Ryanair flight from Stanstead, instead of a BA flight out of City or Heathrow. But I don't think it would fit Eurostar's brand position. Perhaps a Eurostar version of OuiGo? Or even using the OuiGo brand itself, given SNCF's involvement in Eurostar.

From all the reports of the ex-Thalys services being absolutely packed, I can't see anything less than ~400m stock being the replacement for both the e300s and the ex-Thalys units. Would make for good fleet standardisation, and allow more seats, as they've clearly shown that they can fill them.

 

[Energy]

A 'stopping' service, originating in Stratford and calling at places like Ebbsfleet on its way to the continent would be good as a low-cost option

Most of the cost is the tunnel itself. The concern with St Pancras is limited immigration facilities.

Other countries handle fine with on train passport checks but I doubt the UKs position on this will change.

 

[SynthD]

If you started staffing the other two or three stations, they would become most of the cost and it would be even further from low cost.

 

[signed]

If you started staffing the other two or three stations, they would become most of the cost and it would be even further from low cost.

E* would never want to do that alone, but if there is cost sharing with another operator, something like that definitely may happen because it's a win-win for the operators

 

[Snow1964]

If you started staffing the other two or three stations, they would become most of the cost and it would be even further from low cost.

Although with current St Pancras only option, there seem to be staff employed to manage queues, and deal with congestion etc. which would no longer be needed.

So it is not 100% extra staff cost at other locations, because potentially could move some staff.

I am not sure it is most of the cost, even selling 1 extra £60 ticket on a train every hour, more than covers cost of employing 1 extra person. And lot of Eurostar tickets cost more. Don't need that many extra ticket sales per train, to cover cost of staffing extra stations.

 

[YorkRailFan]

A 'stopping' service, originating in Stratford and calling at places like Ebbsfleet on its way to the continent would be good as a low-cost option - think the equivalent of getting a Ryanair flight from Stanstead, instead of a BA flight out of City or Heathrow. But I don't think it would fit Eurostar's brand position. Perhaps a Eurostar version of OuiGo? Or even using the OuiGo brand itself, given SNCF's involvement in Eurostar.

This was being considered by the flurry of new startups who wanted to compete with Eurostar. Evolyn I believe was one of them. The likes of customs and security would require additional costs and time to be installed at Stratford (International).

 

[zwk500]

E* would never want to do that alone, but if there is cost sharing with another operator, something like that definitely may happen because it's a win-win for the operators

Not for eurostar, which can fill its trains from London alone. Why would it subsidise a competitor?

Although with current St Pancras only option, there seem to be staff employed to manage queues, and deal with congestion etc. which would no longer be needed.

St Pancras would still be busy.

So it is not 100% extra staff cost at other locations, because potentially could move some staff.

There's the running costs of the other stations and inefficiencies in having staff split across locations which will wipe out any of that potential saving.

I am not sure it is most of the cost, even selling 1 extra £60 ticket on a train every hour, more than covers cost of employing 1 extra person. And lot of Eurostar tickets cost more. Don't need that many extra ticket sales per train, to cover cost of staffing extra stations.

You need more than 1 staff member to run Ebbsfleet or Ashford and they will need to be there for more than 1 hour. And then you have all the overheads that come from employing people, such as training. And you also have to factor in the fit-out and running costs of the station.

FWIW I do think the Kent stations will eventually reopen but it will be because the government are embarrassed into paying for at least the capital costs of refurbishment by the sight of trains sailing past. If that cost is swallowed, Eurostar would likely have the business at each station to cover its running costs especially as we settle into the post-Brexit border regime and green travel stays on the agenda. Might even be in 4 years time.

 

[signed]

Not for eurostar, which can fill its trains from London alone

Eurostar business model is reliant on business travellers, it's their bread and butter. And it's easier and faster for those in Canary Wharf to get into/from Stratford than STP.

+ you could use it as a termini for some low-cost services like it was mentionned previously in this thread

 

[zwk500]

Eurostar business model is reliant on business travellers, it's their bread and butter. And it's easier and faster for those in Canary Wharf to get into/from Stratford than STP.

+ you could use it as a termini for some low-cost services like it was mentionned previously in this thread

Stratford is a non-starter due to the layout issues. It doesn't have the passenger capacity in the station structure, was never fitted out and you can't terminate international trains there without needing to run wrong-road in one direction or the other. HS1 charges by the minute trains occupy the line, so any Low-Cost operator is likely to focus on Ashford as it's got 2 flexible platforms with good parking and onward train connections.

 

[Halish Railway]

Eurostar business model is reliant on business travellers, it's their bread and butter. And it's easier and faster for those in Canary Wharf to get into/from Stratford than STP.

+ you could use it as a termini for some low-cost services like it was mentionned previously in this thread

I would imagine with the onset of working from home and remote meetings businesses will migrate back into the city, but I agree that Stratford International could play a role in providing additional customs capacity if there's a significant increase in Channel Tunnel ridership.

 

[HSTEd]

Stratford is a non-starter due to the layout issues. It doesn't have the passenger capacity in the station structure, was never fitted out and you can't terminate international trains there without needing to run wrong-road in one direction or the other. HS1 charges by the minute trains occupy the line, so any Low-Cost operator is likely to focus on Ashford as it's got 2 flexible platforms with good parking and onward train connections.

It's amazing to me that Stratford's design remained intact, given how early it became obvious that its "Regional Eurostar" function would never be used.

 

[zwk500]

It's amazing to me that Stratford's design remained intact, given how early it became obvious that its "Regional Eurostar" function would never be used.

Probably a case that there's not really anything else you can do within the design limits (the vertical alignment in particular) imposed by the need for non-stop trains, international and domestic separation, and the depot connection. The only modification you could make at a late stage would be to convert the international platforms to a UK profile but that would remove any hope of Eurostar using it and the service wasn't likely to be intense enough to need it except for the Olympics, which aren't going to happen in London again for a generation.

 

[RT4038]

Other countries handle fine with on train passport checks but I doubt the UKs position on this will change.

Which other countries would they be, handling similar frequency of train service with similar numbers of passengers with similar migrant issues?

I suspect E* run more 'cross hard border' trains per day than the rest of the world put together.

 

[Energy]

Which other countries would they be, handling similar frequency of train service with similar numbers of passengers with similar migrant issues?

I suspect E* run more 'cross hard border' trains per day than the rest of the world put together.

They probably do. On-train spot passport checks aren't uncommon in Europe but that is within Schengen so isn't comparable.

 

[Sorcerer]

They probably do. On-train spot passport checks aren't uncommon in Europe but that is within Schengen so isn't comparable.

Don't some of these checks also take quite some time? I'm sure that I've watched a few trip reports from Switzerland to Italy where the Italian police will do 15-minute checks in Chiasso. Something like that might not be too favourable for the likes of Eurostar, especially seeing as the UK isn't in Schengen and could likely end up taking longer.