Eurostar E300 replacements?

[Yew]

Interesting. In that case I'd be quite interested in potential options seeing as Alstom's high-speed fleet these days is mostly double decker TGV trains. The AGV is single decker but seems like a concept that is mostly done with, and the Pendolino, be it tilt or non-tilt, isn't built to go above 250km/h, and such a reduction in speed isn't something Eurostar will want to go for with any E300 replacements.

From what I remember, they were looking to build a new single decker platform, the Zefiro, but then the EU competition commission ruled that they needed to sell off the platform, as they had acquired Bombardier. So despite having Japanese name plates, the Zefiro is a very French train. I travelled on one of the Ferricorossa sets last year, and it was rather comfortable and had a decent ride quality for non-articulated stock.

 

[Sorcerer]

From what I remember, they were looking to build a new single decker platform, the Zefiro, but then the EU competition commission ruled that they needed to sell off the platform, as they had acquired Bombardier. So despite having Japanese name plates, the Zefiro is a very French train. I travelled on one of the Ferricorossa sets last year, and it was rather comfortable and had a decent ride quality for non-articulated stock.

I always took the Zefiro to be an Italian platform despite Japanese nameplates just because of the Frecciarossa being operated by Trenitalia and the former AnsaldoBreda being an Italian company. I too rode on the ETR 1000 last year as well and it was a very high quality product that I am glad is being used as a basis for the HS2 fleet. An enhanced Zefiro fleet would be a good choice on Eurostar in my opinion, but I am not quite sure how likely it would be. At the very least an off-the-shelf design can be purchased since HS1 is compatible with European standards.

 

[superalbs]

From what I remember, they were looking to build a new single decker platform, the Zefiro, but then the EU competition commission ruled that they needed to sell off the platform, as they had acquired Bombardier. So despite having Japanese name plates, the Zefiro is a very French train. I travelled on one of the Ferricorossa sets last year, and it was rather comfortable and had a decent ride quality for non-articulated stock.

What an interesting comment, "for non-articulated stock".

All of the smoothest trains I've ever been on were non-articulated, while some of the absolute worst were articulated.

 

[Citybreak1]

Eurostar plans up to 50 new trains and more services to tap ‘huge’ demand

Operator wants to open new routes from London and increase fleet by a third

www.ft.com

Eurostar plans to buy up to 50 new trains and is considering launching more international routes from London to take advantage of “huge demand” for rail travel across Europe.

Great news finally a replacement for the E300 and some new routes

 

[Citybreak1]

Eurostar plans to buy up to 50 new trains and is considering launching more international routes from London to take advantage of “huge demand” for rail travel across Europe.

Eurostar plans up to 50 new trains and more services to tap ‘huge’ demand

Operator wants to open new routes from London and increase fleet by a third

www.ft.com

New trains coming let the speculation continue. Looks like E300 finally going to be retired

 

[FlyingPotato]

My guess would be either
Siemens - fleet standardisation
Alstom - SNCF own Eurostar and like Alstom
Maybe the ETR 1000 as it's quite popular

 

[StephenHunter]

Not just the e300s need replacing; the 10 TGV-Rs on Paris to Amsterdam services are of similar age.

 

[Citybreak1]

My guess would be either
Siemens - fleet standardisation
Alstom - SNCF own Eurostar and like Alstom
Maybe the ETR 1000 as it's quite popular

I wonder if ex Thalys will also get replacements?

 

[FlyingPotato]

I think all bar e320 will be replaced as the thalys stock really lacks capacity

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder if ex Thalys will also get replacements?

Would be rather inefficient to order 2 different types, now they are merged into one operator.

They have been used fairly intensively and were basically at tail end of the TGV-reseau order, built around 1995-1996, so will be getting close to life expiry in few years. They are second generation TGV (a shortened version of late 1980s Atlantique design)

Only 26 of them (a single tri-voltage one went to SNCF few years ago), and by modern standards are fairly low capacity.

 

[Energy]

Would be rather inefficient to order 2 different types, now they are merged into one operator.

They have been used fairly intensively and were basically at tail end of the TGV-reseau order, built around 1995-1996, so will be getting close to life expiry in few years.

Only 26 of them (a single tri-voltage one went to SNCF few years ago), and by modern standards are fairly low capacity.

Looks about right for full fleet replacement. The TGV sets at Thalys are only single deck so the power cars waste some space.

Probably between Alstom and Siemens, depending on price. SNCF orders for Alstom are less certain now since orders have been going elsewhere...

 

[43096]

Probably between Alstom and Siemens, depending on price. SNCF orders for Alstom are less certain now since orders have been going elsewhere...

TGV and derivatives is a source of Gallic pride, so more of the TGV-M sets is a possibility. What options does SNCF have in the TGV-M contract with Alstom? They already have 100 sets on order for internal services and 15 quad-voltage sets for international services were called off as options.

 

[Alfie1014]

The article states that fleet size would grow from 51 to 67 after the new trains arrive. That suggests 50 new and the existing 17 x E320s, replacing everything else then?

 

[Snow1964]

TGV and derivatives is a source of Gallic pride, so more of the TGV-M sets is a possibility. What options does SNCF have in the TGV-M contract with Alstom? They already have 100 sets on order for internal services and 15 quad-voltage sets for international services were called off as options.

The original framework agreement was for 200 trains of TGV-M (then called Horizon). 100 were ordered July 2018 (€2.7bn), 15 options (€570m) have been exercised.

At the launch of first fully painted one couple of weeks ago, indicated production would ramp up to about 1 per month by 2025 for SNCF. Not sure what max build rate is but clearly no one wants to wait until 2032 or 2033 and be after SNCF batch is finished. Around about 250 Atlantique, Roseau, Eurostar, were built 1988-1996 so suggests upto 3 per month ought to be possible

10 Alstom factories in France are building TGV-M
- Belfort for the power cars,
- La Rochelle for the carriages
- Villeurbanne for the computerised control and command system, passenger information and on-board equipment,
- Ornans for the traction motors,
- Le Creusot for the bogies,
- Tarbes for traction equipment,
- Toulouse for the electrical circuits,
- Petit Quevilly for the transformers,
- Saint-Ouen for design and signalling,
- Valenciennes for the study of the interior design elements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think all bar e320 will be replaced as the thalys stock really lacks capacity

Indeed. They run full all the time at fares that make LNER's scam trial look cheap - long double deck units would allow them to sell far more!

 

[TheGrew]

It would be interesting to see what gets selected as the new stock. Alstom were rather upset when Siemens got the E320 order.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Indeed. They run full all the time at fares that make LNER's scam trial look cheap - long double deck units would allow them to sell far more!

I've always wondered about double deckers in Belgium
Are proper high speed double deckers allowed to run at top speed

The reason I ask this is that SNCF don't run them, and they detach their double deckers in Lille

 

[HSTEd]

I'd guess the major determinant of TGV M or not is whether or not they are capable of building a 400m set with no intermediate power cars.

I imagine they probably can given they only have to do 300km/h, but they might need to beef up the power cars to do it.

 

[Sorcerer]

So I would still guess that the most likely options are either TGV-M derived fleet, more e320s, or perhaps buying some ETR1000 derived Zefiros. I don't think the latter is as likely as the other two, and in that situation it comes down to the question of whether or not Eurostar wants to sell more seats with double-deck stock or continue with a single-deck streamlined fleet. Alstom could build new single-deck coaches to go with a TGV M power car but I'll let others decide how likely that would be. Then again if Eurostar wants a fully renewable fleet then the Zefiro design is close to 100% recyclability and is arguably the most environmentally friendly high-speed train of the lot.

 

[43096]

I'd guess the major determinant of TGV M or not is whether or not they are capable of building a 400m set with no intermediate power cars.

Not this old chestnut! The 400m length requirement clearly isn't a determinant as the North of London Eurostars were around 320m and they were allowed through the tunnel. Anyone able to say for sure exactly what the requirement is, rather than regurgitating old information that doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

 

[Halish Railway]

I doubt that Eurostar would order double deckers for two reasons. One they can't operate into the Netherlands due to their low door height and high platforms. Secondly, a significant portion of their demand are leisure travellers who have a lot of luggage - The time that I traveled on a PBA to Antwerp last year all of the luggage stacks and overhead storage was full. With double deckers not having large overhead storage racks a significant amount of floor space would have to be sacrificed for luggage stacks.

Hopefully 'new routes from London' would mean Frankfurt providing customs could be sorted out.

 

[HSTEd]

Not this old chestnut! The 400m length requirement clearly isn't a determinant as the North of London Eurostars were around 320m and they were allowed through the tunnel. Anyone able to say for sure exactly what the requirement is, rather than regurgitating old information that doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

.... I wasn't referring to any sort of safety requirement?

I was merely suggesting that they might want 400m units to continue the Eurostar thing of having 400m units?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2024 ==

I doubt that Eurostar would order double deckers for two reasons. One they can't operate into the Netherlands due to their low door height and high platforms.

TGV-M are likely capable of being made compliant with the requirement given they are built to include internal wheelchair lifts and the like.
A step down into a train is tolerated in various other places, in any case.

 

[Hophead]

Is this in any way related to the multiple new operators supposedly considering routes via the Channel Tunnel? Is that what has convinced Eurostar there is "huge demand"? They've never seemed massively bothered before.

 

[zwk500]

Not this old chestnut! The 400m length requirement clearly isn't a determinant as the North of London Eurostars were around 320m and they were allowed through the tunnel. Anyone able to say for sure exactly what the requirement is, rather than regurgitating old information that doesn't stand up to scrutiny?

There is no specific length requirement mentioned in any of the documentation on the IGC website last time I checked. The fire regulations have been adapted to meet EU interoperability standards, with requirements about evacuating either the trains from the tunnels or the passengers into the service tunnels within designated time periods.

 

[Energy]

.... I wasn't referring to any sort of safety requirement?

I was merely suggesting that they might want 400m units to continue the Eurostar thing of having 400m units?

Probably just normal ~200m units coupled together. That was what DB was working towards when they were considering London services.

 

[MarcVD]

Is this in any way related to the multiple new operators supposedly considering routes via the Channel Tunnel? Is that what has convinced Eurostar there is "huge demand"? They've never seemed massively bothered before.

Eurostar is much more than the few lines serving London nowadays. It is also all the former Thalys lines. I suspect that the growth potential that they identified concerns essentially the purely continental lines, where they can freely grow without being constrained by cumbersome border controls and capacity of terminals.

 

[HSTEd]

Probably just normal ~200m units coupled together. That was what DB was working towards when they were considering London services.

Eurostar did order 400m units last time though, even though they could have ordered 200m units if they had wanted to.

So I think there is probably some sort of commercial driver in that direction.

 

[zwk500]

Eurostar did order 400m units last time though, even though they could have ordered 200m units if they had wanted to.

So I think there is probably some sort of commercial driver in that direction.

As the FT article is behind a firewall, is it definitely new trains for cross-Channel services, or is it new trains for the Eurostsr group, with a separate consideration of new routes from London?
Trains from London basically need to be 400m for commercial reasons as much as anything else, so 2x200 just makes it more awkward to operate as the train manager will only be in one half of the train at all times. Whereas trains entirely within the Schengen area might have a bit more commercial reason to explore routes that can cope with 200m sets

 

[Snow1964]

The Travel Weekly mag is not behind a paywall

More international routes from London are being considered by Eurostar as the high speed Channel Tunnel passenger rail service looks to acquire 50 new trains.

The company is in talks with train manufacturers for an order to replace older rolling stock and increase the size of the fleet by a third from 51 to 67 trains.

Chief executive Gwendoline Cazenave told the Financial Times that Eurostar was “definitely” considering opening new routes from London to Europe, adding to its current services between London, Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels.

“With a new fleet we will study new routes, new European routes . . . I think by the end of the year or early 2025 we will be able to say more,” she said, adding that there was “huge demand” for Eurostar services.

Cazenave said one of the most important factors in choosing a manufacturer would be how quickly the new trains could be delivered.

“It’s a race. The sooner the better. The market is pushing so hard, that we really need to see which manufacturer is going to be able to be ready as quick as possible,” she said.

Eurostar merged with Thalys, a train company serving France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, to form Eurostar Group in 2022.

However, Getlink, the operator of the Channel Tunnel told the FT earlier this month that five companies — including Virgin Group, a consortium backed by the largest shareholders in Mobico, formerly known as National Express, and Dutch start-up Heuro — were “seriously” interested in launching train services between the UK and Europe.

About 400 trains a day use the tunnel, including freight and car-carrying services, while it has capacity for 1,000.

Eurostar’s terminal in Amsterdam is being expanded, while Cazenave said she expected St Pancras and Paris Gare du Nord to be redesigned to make more space over the next five years.

“At the stage of the new fleet [arriving], we will have bigger stations,” she said.

Eurostar faces new EU biometric border checks, due to be introduced this year.

But Cazenave said she was confident passengers would not face big queues, and that the owners of St Pancras plan to redesign parts of the station to make more space for travellers going through the extra border checks

Eurostar signals expansion with new trains and routes

High-speed rail service fleet size to rise by a third

travelweekly.co.uk

 

[Citybreak1]

As the FT article is behind a firewall, is it definitely new trains for cross-Channel services, or is it new trains for the Eurostsr group, with a separate consideration of new routes from London?
Trains from London basically need to be 400m for commercial reasons as much as anything else, so 2x200 just makes it more awkward to operate as the train manager will only be in one half of the train at all times. Whereas trains entirely within the Schengen area might have a bit more commercial reason to explore routes that can cope with 200m sets

Looks like all E300 and Ex Thalys will
Be replaced.