EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Puffing Devil]

The point is simply that the vast majority of the EU decision making body is foreign. It’s comprised of people from foreign countries, elected very often by people we have little in common with. Why should people feel it is in any way representative? What argument have we to claim it is any sort of proper democracy? The majority of people in this country don’t identify as European.

Yes - it is made up of "foreign" countries, just as we are foreign to them. All the members are elected - how can you say it's not a democracy? Just because it's full of "foreigners" doesn't make it undemocratic. If it were full of Brits it would be undemocratic.

Remain should stop talking about MEPs and the representation of ordinary British people in Europe. It’s simply not something people see happen. I cannot recall watching any British MEP other than Farage talk in the chamber. I don’t know who all the people are who make decisions.

That's not the fault of the EU - that's down to the media and the profile of the MEPs. Aside from scare stories in the Daily Mail and the Express, there's been little historic interest in the EU which has gone about its work quite well. All until Cameron's little intervention which has suddenly given every man and his dog an opinion.

The EU is a good idea on paper. The idea of it being a peace project is laughable to the extreme.

No war in Europe for those in the EU for over 70 years seems pretty good to me.

 

[SHD]

How does Brexit affect that, other than the possibility of an increase in traffic to offset less imports from the EU?

Consider an outbound UK shipment to Asia. What happens when it reaches the destination port after March 30, 2019?

 

[Puffing Devil]

How does Brexit affect that, other than the possibility of an increase in traffic to offset less imports from the EU?

I thought that you would understand as an expert on world trade, that the tariffs that applied when they shipped will not be in place when they arrive. The landed costs will not be as expected. Same applies to good shipped from the UK to Asia.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Excellent from Mr Tusk - the more the likes of him and Barnier and the rest of the arrogant 'EU intelligentsia' continue then the greater the majority will be to confirm Brexit should there be another vote.

 

[433N]

... the arrogant 'EU intelligentsia' ....

Perhaps the most depressing thing in the whole Brexit fiasco is this lazy regurgitation of narrative constructed to drum up hate, mainly be right wing tabloids and their paymasters.

I am constantly reminded of how insightful Orwell was in recognising the need for the Party to serve up figures as objects of hate in '1984' to establish subjugation of the masses.

Perhaps the regurgitators would like to reflect on the kind of society that Orwell was describing and the way in which they are being manipulated.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Excellent from Mr Tusk - the more the likes of him and Barnier and the rest of the arrogant 'EU intelligentsia' continue then the greater the majority will be to confirm Brexit should there be another vote.

Excellent work by the Brexiteer UK media reshaping a very valid comment, endorsed by many in the country, to reinforce their image of the EU as all things bad.

What part of the sentiment of "It was stupid to invoke A50 and drag the whole country to the edge of a cliff without a plan" do you @Mutant Lemming disagree with?

 

[Senex]

It’s comprised of people from foreign countries, elected very often by people we have little in common with. ...... The majority of people in this country don’t identify as European.

Well I certainly have always felt I have more in common with people from Germany, France, Italy, Scandinavia, Ireland, etc who share a cultural-historical background with me, have similar tastes, have the same sort of educational background, did the same sort of work as I did, and so on, than I have with many people in this country with whom I do not share such things. Just all being subjects of the British crown does not necessarily mean that we have a lot in common (and there I suspect many of us for various reasons may well feel we have vastly more in common with the Irish from the independent state that with those of the extreme Scottish Presbyterian background from the north-eastern corner of that island).
"Identify as" is surely more complicated. The French, Germans, Italians, and others that I know identify themselves first by those nationalities (though a German might well tell you he's first and foremost a Bavarian, or a Saxon!) but would then think of themselves as sharing a common European heritage in many respects. What are we? I'm very happy to be English (or rather, I was until the whole England-led Brexit business kicked off), but the concept of "UK Citizen" is one I find it very hard indeed to awaken any enthusiasm for, and I totally resent the older "British subject" identity.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo: if trucks from the UK to Ireland do not use ports; how do they then enter Ireland?

They drive over the land border between the two countries.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes - it is made up of "foreign" countries, just as we are foreign to them. All the members are elected - how can you say it's not a democracy? Just because it's full of "foreigners" doesn't make it undemocratic. If it were full of Brits it would be undemocratic.

You can’t have a democracy without a demos. Europe isn’t a single demos however you want to portray it. You can deny this all you like. This is old ground. Britain is still - at the moment - leaving.

That's not the fault of the EU - that's down to the media and the profile of the MEPs.

The same media who mostly were pro-Remain. Right.

No war in Europe for those in the EU for over 70 years seems pretty good to me.

Let me know how many wars EU members have been in since it was founded. I can’t even count that high.

 

[Howardh]

How does Brexit affect that, other than the possibility of an increase in traffic to offset less imports from the EU?

It shouldn't unless it comes via the EU by land. However the knock-on effect by sea would be if there are delays r/e EU goods at our ports therefore delaying offloading non-EU goods I suppose.

 

[Esker-pades]

The same media who mostly were pro-Remain. Right.

I'm interested to know how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You can’t have a democracy without a demos. Europe isn’t a single demos however you want to portray it. You can deny this all you like. This is old ground. Britain is still - at the moment - leaving.

Not according to the dictionary definitions. You'll need to expand on that to have a credible argument.

The same media who mostly were pro-Remain. Right.

Same BBC that had to take down a biased tweet regarding Tusks recent comment? All media is biased - I'm sure we can all list outlets on either side.

Let me know how many wars EU members have been in since it was founded. I can’t even count that high.

That was not the question. We have no wars between the member states of the EU. That's peace to me.

 

[433N]

Let me know how many wars EU members have been in since it was founded. I can’t even count that high.

Lemme see ... Kuwait , Iraq , Afghanistan , Libya , Syria ... I'm losing count with just one member !

 

[HH]

Lemme see ... Kuwait , Iraq , Afghanistan , Libya , Syria ... I'm losing count with just one member !

All those all wars between EU states and foreign countries? Given the pedantry around democracy, I expect to see the same level of exactitude in the matter of war.

P.S. How many of those wars the EU was involved in as the EU? Answer Zero, and yet I see many complaints about a proposed EU Army. OTOH how many of the wars was the UK involved in? I'm pretty certain if we take the period since the UK joined the EU, that it would comfortably have been involved in more wars than any other EU state.

 

[433N]

All those all wars between EU states and foreign countries? Given the pedantry around democracy, I expect to see the same level of exactitude in the matter of war.

Not exactly. To be pedantic, they are wars in which one EU member participated (often against the EU's wishes).

 

[eotw]

How does Brexit affect that, other than the possibility of an increase in traffic to offset less imports from the EU?

1. Goods from UK are in transit to a country (e.g. Korea) who have a trade deal with the EU
2. UK leaves without a deal, therefore EU trade deal with country above no longer applies to UK exporters
3. UK goods pay full WTO tariffs or stuck in limbo.

 

[cb a1]

The point is simply that the vast majority of the EU decision making body is foreign. It’s comprised of people from foreign countries, elected very often by people we have little in common with. Why should people feel it is in any way representative? What argument have we to claim it is any sort of proper democracy? The majority of people in this country don’t identify as European.

I identify myself as many things. It's not a one-stop shop. I was born Lancastrian, English, British, European, Earthling. As I now live in Scotland, election-wise I am Dundonian, Scottish, British, European, Earthling.

There are people elsewhere on Earth, Europe, UK, Scotland and Dundee voting on things that affect me and vice-versa.

Outwith my circle of family and friends, any form of allegiance or kinship or anything else I feel toward you is the same as that for the other 7 billion people on this planet.

I honestly don't feel or understand this magical force which extends to and stops abruptly at the boundaries of the United Kingdom that makes those who are living within it different to those that aren't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not according to the dictionary definitions. You'll need to expand on that to have a credible argument.

It’s worrisome that you think a concept like democracy can be narrowly defined by a dictionary.

I expanded on this months ago and am now going back over old ground. I really can’t be bothered explaining it again.

 

[AlterEgo]

I identify myself as many things. It's not a one-stop shop. I was born Lancastrian, English, British, European, Earthling. As I now live in Scotland, election-wise I am Dundonian, Scottish, British, European, Earthling.

There are people elsewhere on Earth, Europe, UK, Scotland and Dundee voting on things that affect me and vice-versa.

Outwith my circle of family and friends, any form of allegiance or kinship or anything else I feel toward you is the same as that for the other 7 billion people on this planet.

I honestly don't feel or understand this magical force which extends to and stops abruptly at the boundaries of the United Kingdom that makes those who are living within it different to those that aren't.

This is essentially a denial of nationalism as a concept. Personally I am not a nationalist, but I have given up trying to explain how many people view the country.

*wider points not applicable to the quoted poster*:

I’ll go back to eating my popcorn and watching the mess that is Brexit happen.

For the avoidance of doubt, Brexit is a stupid idea and I didn’t vote for it. However, I’m pleased it’s getting up the noses of the right people. The utter disdain with which many on the Remain side treat Leavers is a disgrace. I’m ashamed of my country.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It’s worrisome that you think a concept like democracy can be narrowly defined by a dictionary.

I expanded on this months ago and am now going back over old ground. I really can’t be bothered explaining it again.

And I didn't read that expansion and can't be bothered to find it.

 

[cb a1]

This is essentially a denial of nationalism as a concept. Personally I am not a nationalist, but I have given up trying to explain how many people view the country.

Which is somewhat ironic given I frequently vote for the SNP*

*To be clear, I'm not a member of the SNP, nor do I identify myself as an SNP voter. No party has my allegiance and I have voted for at least 4 different parties and at least 2 independents in the various tiers of elections over the last 30+ years.

 

[nidave]

I thought that you would understand as an expert on world trade, that the tariffs that applied when they shipped will not be in place when they arrive. The landed costs will not be as expected. Same applies to good shipped from the UK to Asia.

Thats not what is being reported in the media... and a quick search shows the following

The tariff, along with the other assessments, is collected at the time of customs clearance in the foreign port.

https://build.export.gov/main/logistics/eg_main_018130

British exporters sending goods to far-flung destinations in the coming days risk being locked out of harbours around the world as a no-deal Brexit looms, business leaders have warned.

Independent trade experts and the UK’s biggest business groups said exporters could be dispatching goods from UK ports imminently that would not arrive until after the 29 March deadline. This raised the prospect of goods being stuck in ports or facing hefty additional costs in the event of a disorderly Brexit.

Seamus Nevin, the chief economist at the EEF, said: “These problems don’t just start on 29 March. It takes several weeks for container ships to travel from the UK to East Asia, Oceania, or South America. Very soon, sea-freight will be leaving the UK with no idea of the trade rules that will be in place when the goods arrive.”

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rters-risk-being-locked-out-of-world-harbours

I have asked a Former Aussie trade negotiator (WTO) the question "Quick question are tariffs applied when they shipped or if the tariff changes while in transit is it paid when they arrive or do they stick to the original tariff?" - and will post the reply once I get it

In the meantime...

The UK government has told businesses it cannot guarantee the British economy will be covered by “most” of the EU’s global network of trade agreements immediately after Brexit — even if parliament approves Theresa May’s divorce deal with Brussels.

The admission by the Department for International Trade that the UK will fail to conclude trade deals with most non-EU countries by the scheduled Brexit date of March 29 infuriated many executives taking part in a briefing.

Participants in the meeting were told its content was confidential, meaning that organisations are not able to brief their members in detail on the government’s lack of preparedness.

“I am particularly worried about small businesses, who may not even know that their trading depends on some of these agreements,” one person at the briefing said, warning that retailers could also be particularly badly affected.

Several participants expressed their frustration at the government’s approach, saying it was irresponsible not to provide a definitive list of countries with which the UK had failed to make an agreement.

https://www.ft.com/content/7beae1d2-2a39-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7

Also

https://t.co/Dq94XkW1cS

So Tokyo is going to do what it can do make sure it gets more from the deal with the UK than it could with the EU - this is going to be a common thread I think.

And the US is already making demands for a trade deal...

Powerful lobbyists are pressing Donald Trump to play hard ball over the NHS, food quality and consumer rights during talks for a US-UK trade deal, it can be revealed.

The US department of trade asked American industry what the president should extract from a post-Brexit Britain.

The office said it was “seeking public comments on a proposed US-UK Trade Agreement, including US interests and priorities, in order to develop US negotiating positions”.

Organisations were invited to submit their responses in writing or verbally at a public hearing – and the responses were startling.

Lobbyists for big firms made more than 130 demands, which include:

• Changing how NHS chiefs buy drugs to suit big US pharmaceutical companies
  
• Britain scraps its safety-first approach to safety and food standards
  
• Law changes that would allow foreign companies to sue the British state
• Removal of protections for traditional British products.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...6e4b00187b5579f64?ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000008

 

[nidave]

This is just great.. I am sure people on here have been telling us we voted Brexit to get out of the SM and CU how come the leader writer from the Sun on 19 October 2016 was getting so upset that the French and the Germans might force us out of the SM? - could it be different people had different opinions on what Brexit really meant and not everyone voted for the same thing?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I thought that you would understand as an expert on world trade, that the tariffs that applied when they shipped will not be in place when they arrive. The landed costs will not be as expected. Same applies to good shipped from the UK to Asia.

Thats not what is being reported in the media... and a quick search shows the following
https://build.export.gov/main/logistics/eg_main_018130
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...rters-risk-being-locked-out-of-world-harbours
I have asked a Former Aussie trade negotiator (WTO) the question "Quick question are tariffs applied when they shipped or if the tariff changes while in transit is it paid when they arrive or do they stick to the original tariff?" - and will post the reply once I get it

I'm pretty sure that what you posted equates with my post - the tariffs that were in place when the goods were shipped will not be the same when the goods arrive (post Brexit, no deal), which means that a new tariff will be applied to the goods when they clear customs, hence the landed costs of goods being different. That applies to UK goods arriving in foreign ports and imports arriving here.

 

[nidave]

I'm pretty sure that what you posted equates with my post - the tariffs that were in place when the goods were shipped will not be the same when the goods arrive (post Brexit, no deal), which means that a new tariff will be applied to the goods when they clear customs, hence the landed costs of goods being different. That applies to UK goods arriving in foreign ports and imports arriving here.

Sorry I have totally gotten the wrong end of the stick with your post. Re-reading it again.. we are indeed saying the same thing.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No-deal Brexit risks rise as UK-Japan trade talks stall: https://www.ft.com/content/5ce60af2...egmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a

Well, who would have thought that.... the Japanese looking for a more advantageous deal with the UK than it was prepared to give to the whole of the EU. In a way, the Brexiteers were right: countries are willing to do deals with us. Just worse deals than we have in the EU and they know we are weak and have little to offer.

 

[SteveP29]

I would suspect the EU will not nullify their trade agreements because they'll say that the deals were done as a collective, not with any named participants, it is a deal with the EU, not a deal with Germany, France, Italy, UK, etc. Which is what I would expect of a deal with a treading bloc. To name specific countries within that deal would suggest that those countries would be receiving preferential treatment within that deal, which isn't the idea of the trade deals the EU has

 

[EM2]

...arrogant 'EU intelligentsia'

Tusk was a trade union official in Gdansk, and painted industrial chimneys. How does that make him a member of the intelligentsia, compared to Farage, for example?

 

[nidave]

I would suspect the EU will not nullify their trade agreements because they'll say that the deals were done as a collective, not with any named participants, it is a deal with the EU, not a deal with Germany, France, Italy, UK, etc. Which is what I would expect of a deal with a treading bloc. To name specific countries within that deal would suggest that those countries would be receiving preferential treatment within that deal, which isn't the idea of the trade deals the EU has

My point was people have been spouting that "everyone wanted no SM and CU and WTO since day one" this was obviously lies as the press cutting proves.

 

[AlterEgo]

And I didn't read that expansion and can't be bothered to find it.

Like Groundhog Day in here.